Good morning from Killymeal House, Belfast. We are here for Day 3 Session 1 of Morrison v BFF. Live tweeting will begin on this thread shortly. Here is Sara Morrison arriving with her Mum Valerie and her Mum's partner Ian this morning. First, some housekeeping... 
If you are not familiar with this case, here is Sara's side of the story, written up on Sunday.
This is the hashtag, though I'm not sure people use them anymore #MorrisonvBFFgenderblog.net/sara-morrison-…
This is the hashtag, though I'm not sure people use them anymore #MorrisonvBFFgenderblog.net/sara-morrison-…
Sara (SM) has given evidence for the last two days. Today we are going to see witnesses from the Belfast Film Festival (BFF) give evidence. Last we were told, Michele Devlin (MD), BFF CEO is giving evidence first.
SM is the Claimant (C)
BFF is the Respondent (R)
SM is the Claimant (C)
BFF is the Respondent (R)
Barrister Naomi Cunningham (NC) will be cross-examining (xe) on SM's behalf. This is an employment tribunal. SM is claiming discrimination for her gender-critical (sex realist) beliefs and constructive dismissal. BFF are "vigorously" defending both claims.
This case is being heard before a three person Panel led by Employment Judge Lisa Sturgeon (J)
NB: EVERYTHING I TWEET IS A SUMMARY OR CHARACTERISATION OF WHAT IS BEING SAID OR IS HAPPENING IN COURT. NOTHING IS A DIRECT QUOTE UNLESS IT IS IN "DIRECT QUOTES"
NB: EVERYTHING I TWEET IS A SUMMARY OR CHARACTERISATION OF WHAT IS BEING SAID OR IS HAPPENING IN COURT. NOTHING IS A DIRECT QUOTE UNLESS IT IS IN "DIRECT QUOTES"
I am here thanks to crowdfunded donations. I am hoping to keep going into next week. I'll definitely be here all this week. If you would like to receive my nightly updates on the trial, please consider making a one-off donation:
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Ok. MD has been sworn in - she is confirm the contents of her Witness Statement (WS) are correct and true to the best of her knowledge. Sean Doherty (SD) is the BFF barrister.
SD what happened at the Errigle Inn -
MD I asked if SM had screened Adult Human Female - as I had heard it was a controversial film - she said no, but she was at it. There was a boycott of the Errigle after it was screened there.
SD did you talk to MD about it
MD I asked if SM had screened Adult Human Female - as I had heard it was a controversial film - she said no, but she was at it. There was a boycott of the Errigle after it was screened there.
SD did you talk to MD about it
SD I knew it was a controversial film, screened at the Errigle Inn by the WRN NI
SD what's the relevance of this to C -
MD I know it's something she watched to maybe learn from, I don't know
SD what else
MD there was a She Heard exhibition at a gallery in 2023
SD what was said
SD what's the relevance of this to C -
MD I know it's something she watched to maybe learn from, I don't know
SD what else
MD there was a She Heard exhibition at a gallery in 2023
SD what was said
MD we walked through the gallery and the installation involved someone doing manicures and I said it would be nice to stop and get a manicure and she said "Eurgh - not with it"
SD what was she referring to when she said "it"
MD the transgender person doing the manicure
SD what was she referring to when she said "it"
MD the transgender person doing the manicure
[xe from NC]
NC morning MD
MD morning
J intervenes to ask NC to speak up
NC "if we look at pars 4 to 5 of your statement first of all... we see from that that you learned on 18 april C was being bullied online"
MD yes
NC and you learned at that time it was serious enough to be...
NC morning MD
MD morning
J intervenes to ask NC to speak up
NC "if we look at pars 4 to 5 of your statement first of all... we see from that that you learned on 18 april C was being bullied online"
MD yes
NC and you learned at that time it was serious enough to be...
... a police matter.
MD yes
NC and you learned later that day that from the response to your tweet about the GooD Friday Agreement (GDA) event that SM had spoken at a Let Women Speak (LWS) event
MD yes
NC and you learned later that day that from the response to your tweet about the GooD Friday Agreement (GDA) event that SM had spoken at a Let Women Speak (LWS) event
We go to a @perrycombover tweet
NC makes it very clear that the LWS event was being criticised as transphobic and the video of C speaking at LWS was embedded in the tweet
MD yes
NC and you very sensibly hid that tweet
MD yes
NC because you thought it was encouraging...
NC makes it very clear that the LWS event was being criticised as transphobic and the video of C speaking at LWS was embedded in the tweet
MD yes
NC and you very sensibly hid that tweet
MD yes
NC because you thought it was encouraging...
... of an online lynching
MD I don't know
NC but you were being protect of C
MD protective of BFF and my team
NC which includes Sara
MD yes
MD I don't know
NC but you were being protect of C
MD protective of BFF and my team
NC which includes Sara
MD yes
[NC takes her to her WS pars 5 - 12]
NC you're telling the story chronologically
MD "as best as I can recall"
NC 5 - 12 are all about the events of 18th April, then in par 12 you switch to what happened on 4 May
NC you're telling the story chronologically
MD "as best as I can recall"
NC 5 - 12 are all about the events of 18th April, then in par 12 you switch to what happened on 4 May
NC so by end of 18 April you'd heard SM's speech
MD not by then
NC when
MD can't say - "she asked me not to listen to it"
NC let's look at par 8 - you've agreed you're telling the story chronologically
MD "to the best that I can recall"
MD not by then
NC when
MD can't say - "she asked me not to listen to it"
NC let's look at par 8 - you've agreed you're telling the story chronologically
MD "to the best that I can recall"
NC you tell the story in par 8 of watching the video in the middle of 18 April
MD I do, but I did not watch it that day
NC so you watched it some other day
MD when you did what did you do
"I sat on my desk and I put my head in my hands because a number of our client orgs were mentioned - people we'd worked with, continued to work with and wanted to work with in the future"
NC you were appalled by it were you
MD "shocked"
NC "what did you do next"
MD "not much - I kind of thought I had a lot on, I was incredibly busy, I spoke to our marketing person and asked her if she'd watched it and then I continued with my worked because we were incredibly busy, so I parked it"
MD I do, but I did not watch it that day
NC so you watched it some other day
MD when you did what did you do
"I sat on my desk and I put my head in my hands because a number of our client orgs were mentioned - people we'd worked with, continued to work with and wanted to work with in the future"
NC you were appalled by it were you
MD "shocked"
NC "what did you do next"
MD "not much - I kind of thought I had a lot on, I was incredibly busy, I spoke to our marketing person and asked her if she'd watched it and then I continued with my worked because we were incredibly busy, so I parked it"
NC why head in your hands and shocked - that it might cause your reputation damage
MD "real reputational damage"
NC if she's done something like this - wouldn't you tell her to stop
MD she told me she wouldn't
NC and you didn't think it was nec to notify the board take some action
MD I did, but I "was incredibly busy... and I needed time to take in the information"
NC if it was as you're saying now shocking, wasn't it wise to alert them
MD I spoke to our marketing person
NC note of that?
MD no
NC notify the board
MD I wanted to process it first
MD "real reputational damage"
NC if she's done something like this - wouldn't you tell her to stop
MD she told me she wouldn't
NC and you didn't think it was nec to notify the board take some action
MD I did, but I "was incredibly busy... and I needed time to take in the information"
NC if it was as you're saying now shocking, wasn't it wise to alert them
MD I spoke to our marketing person
NC note of that?
MD no
NC notify the board
MD I wanted to process it first
NC I think you did watch it on 18 April
MD I did not
NC and it didn't strike you as so shocking at the time
MD I don't accept that
NC and you didn't think you had a "rogue employee" on your hands there was any reason to do anything at the time
MD I don't accept that. It was serious"in terms of reputational damage and damage to partnerships"
MD I did not
NC and it didn't strike you as so shocking at the time
MD I don't accept that
NC and you didn't think you had a "rogue employee" on your hands there was any reason to do anything at the time
MD I don't accept that. It was serious"in terms of reputational damage and damage to partnerships"
NC SM says at the beginning of her speech that people couldn't be at LWS because they were "frightened" - do you accept that
MD no
NC so you're telling the tribunal people were not frightened of being there
MD It seemed tense from what I read in the press
NC so women might not turn up because they are frightened of violence
MD anyone
NC so I think you're agreeing that it might be credible that SM's friends might be frightened to turn up
MD no
NC so you're telling the tribunal people were not frightened of being there
MD It seemed tense from what I read in the press
NC so women might not turn up because they are frightened of violence
MD anyone
NC so I think you're agreeing that it might be credible that SM's friends might be frightened to turn up
MD yes
NC C talks about women being frightened into silence and that's exactly what happened to SM after having the temerity to speak up. were you part of that?
MD no
NC did you tell her she's free to speak and stand up to bullies
MD I offered her any assistance she wanted.
NC C talks about women being frightened into silence and that's exactly what happened to SM after having the temerity to speak up. were you part of that?
MD no
NC did you tell her she's free to speak and stand up to bullies
MD I offered her any assistance she wanted.
[we go to the bundle]
NC SM mentions songs for solidarity - this is what it says it is "Songs for Solidarity are a collective of Activists,
Unions, LGBTQIA+ and Women’s Sector
organisations across Nl.
We are and we love trans, non-binary and other
gender creative people. We want to spread big
dollops of trans joy and solidarity in Belfast."
NC SM mentions songs for solidarity - this is what it says it is "Songs for Solidarity are a collective of Activists,
Unions, LGBTQIA+ and Women’s Sector
organisations across Nl.
We are and we love trans, non-binary and other
gender creative people. We want to spread big
dollops of trans joy and solidarity in Belfast."
NC goes to more of SM's speech "I started this new iteration of Rape Crisis Nl, this is not the rape crisis I wanted. We need to keep men
out of women's spaces-
They have morphed into a deliberate campaign of bullying and intimidation into silence through
harassment and bullying the very women they should be protecting and [inaudible]."
out of women's spaces-
They have morphed into a deliberate campaign of bullying and intimidation into silence through
harassment and bullying the very women they should be protecting and [inaudible]."
NC what SM is saying there is exactly what SfS were doing on that day
MD this is the first time I've seen that tweet
NC at the time you were supportive - "you were quite right not set sirens wailing within the organisation - you didn't regard this as a panic stations situation...
MD this is the first time I've seen that tweet
NC at the time you were supportive - "you were quite right not set sirens wailing within the organisation - you didn't regard this as a panic stations situation...
... when you first heard it"
NC there was nothing in that speech which required action
MD no the refs to our partner organisations as I've said already... "and I needed to gather our thoughts - we are a small under-resourced arts charity, a lot of the work falls on my shoulders and I was incredibly busy."
NC there was nothing in that speech which required action
MD no the refs to our partner organisations as I've said already... "and I needed to gather our thoughts - we are a small under-resourced arts charity, a lot of the work falls on my shoulders and I was incredibly busy."
NC I am saying to you you heard it and though it was a perfectly legitimate political speech
MD "I didn't understand the half of it to be honest" I only watched it once
NC looking at it now - what's the very worst thing in that speech
MD Sure "Do these so-called women's organisations speak for you? Do these self-styled messiahs
represent us? These organisations are paid thousands of pounds through the public purse to sing
songs to silence women Speaking. Is that where you want your money going? These organisations,
these women's organisations WRDA, Alliance For Choice, Wohten's Policy Group Northern Ireland,
The Women's Sector Lobbyist, Rape Crisis Nl."
MD "I didn't understand the half of it to be honest" I only watched it once
NC looking at it now - what's the very worst thing in that speech
MD Sure "Do these so-called women's organisations speak for you? Do these self-styled messiahs
represent us? These organisations are paid thousands of pounds through the public purse to sing
songs to silence women Speaking. Is that where you want your money going? These organisations,
these women's organisations WRDA, Alliance For Choice, Wohten's Policy Group Northern Ireland,
The Women's Sector Lobbyist, Rape Crisis Nl."
NC but that's exactly what SfS were doing
MD I don't accept that
NC you weren't there - so you can't say
MD "I can neither deny or confirm" I was shocked that she would say this about partner organisations
NC you say that now, but then you thought it was perfectly legitimate...
MD I don't accept that
NC you weren't there - so you can't say
MD "I can neither deny or confirm" I was shocked that she would say this about partner organisations
NC you say that now, but then you thought it was perfectly legitimate...
... political speech. The reason you didn't raise the alarm or set things in motion was because what you were hearing was obviously perfectly legitimate political speech
MD it was a speech
NC this is how freedom of speech works, isn't it - that people can say things you don't agree with - and you're now saying she can't do this
MD she's perfectly entitled to her views
MD it was a speech
NC this is how freedom of speech works, isn't it - that people can say things you don't agree with - and you're now saying she can't do this
MD she's perfectly entitled to her views
NC and your initial response was to try to shut down the online "gathering storm"
MD I wanted to protect my staff member and "respond with compassion"
NC If there had been a lot of further online bullying or online crit of BFF before July you would have mentioned it in your evidence.
MD I wanted to protect my staff member and "respond with compassion"
NC If there had been a lot of further online bullying or online crit of BFF before July you would have mentioned it in your evidence.
MD yes
NC and there wasn't was there
MD no
NC so the tribunal can conclude you did a pretty good job of damping out the fire
MD possibly
NC SM's speech has been criticised for being transphobic - was it?
MD "there didn't seem to be any transphobic statements within it"
NC and there wasn't was there
MD no
NC so the tribunal can conclude you did a pretty good job of damping out the fire
MD possibly
NC SM's speech has been criticised for being transphobic - was it?
MD "there didn't seem to be any transphobic statements within it"
NC and if you look at the par "I started this new iteration of Rape Crisis Nl, this is not the rape crisis I wanted. We need to keep men out of women's spaces" - "do you understand what that means and why that's relevant"
MD I'm not sure if it means keeping men out rape crisis...
MD I'm not sure if it means keeping men out rape crisis...
... centres
NC that's an example of what it means - keeping men out women's spaces
MD it's not a particularly well-crafted statement
NC and it's not transphobic to make that statement is it
SD what's that got to do with this - the R has never said the speech was transphobic
NC that's an example of what it means - keeping men out women's spaces
MD it's not a particularly well-crafted statement
NC and it's not transphobic to make that statement is it
SD what's that got to do with this - the R has never said the speech was transphobic
[NC pushes back]
NC turn to p200 - this is a couple of tweets from Progressive Politics Northern Ireland "Unfortunately this Sunday, there is a hateful
transphobic event taking place in Belfast
masquerading as a women’s rights event. It isn’t.
Women’s rights organisations here are
overwhelmingly trans-inclusive."
AND
"Therefore, we encourage everyone to attend this
other event - SONGS FOR SOLIDARITY - set up
by a collective of Activists, Unions, LGBTQIA+ &
Women’s Sector ergs. It will be a positive & joyful
rebuke to any oppressive negativity happening in
the city"
NC turn to p200 - this is a couple of tweets from Progressive Politics Northern Ireland "Unfortunately this Sunday, there is a hateful
transphobic event taking place in Belfast
masquerading as a women’s rights event. It isn’t.
Women’s rights organisations here are
overwhelmingly trans-inclusive."
AND
"Therefore, we encourage everyone to attend this
other event - SONGS FOR SOLIDARITY - set up
by a collective of Activists, Unions, LGBTQIA+ &
Women’s Sector ergs. It will be a positive & joyful
rebuke to any oppressive negativity happening in
the city"
NC It says "Women’s rights organisations here are overwhelmingly trans-inclusive." You know what that means, right - that means women's rights orgs in NI operate on the basis that transwomen are women, doesn't it?
MD I don't know
NC do you understand what that statement means
MD I don't know the policy of every women's org is
NC I'm asking if you understand what the statement means - do you know what it means?
MD yes
NC what does it mean
MD reads the statement out - "it's self explanatory"
SD I don't think this is relevant - MD runs a film festival
NC I would like to pursue my point in the manner I see fit without constant interruptions - SD's interventions are going to slow us down a great deal
MD I don't know
NC do you understand what that statement means
MD I don't know the policy of every women's org is
NC I'm asking if you understand what the statement means - do you know what it means?
MD yes
NC what does it mean
MD reads the statement out - "it's self explanatory"
SD I don't think this is relevant - MD runs a film festival
NC I would like to pursue my point in the manner I see fit without constant interruptions - SD's interventions are going to slow us down a great deal
J I will allow her to pursue this line
SD if she didn't interrupt me that's her business but if I hear something I don't like I will chirp up
NC do you think that statement means that womens orgs in NI operate on the basis that TWAW
MD I imagine it may do
NC so if a man says he is a woman they have to take his word for it
MD is this another hypothetical
NC if a man or transwoman presents themselves at a rape crisis centre he will be treated as a woman
MD yes
NC yes - whether or not you agree with it, that is a controversial point and women have the right to feel very strongly about it don't they
MD anyone can
NC and what that means is that women who have been abused can encounter men
SD if she didn't interrupt me that's her business but if I hear something I don't like I will chirp up
NC do you think that statement means that womens orgs in NI operate on the basis that TWAW
MD I imagine it may do
NC so if a man says he is a woman they have to take his word for it
MD is this another hypothetical
NC if a man or transwoman presents themselves at a rape crisis centre he will be treated as a woman
MD yes
NC yes - whether or not you agree with it, that is a controversial point and women have the right to feel very strongly about it don't they
MD anyone can
NC and what that means is that women who have been abused can encounter men
SD this is irrelevant
NC I say that women were entitled to make this point and that trying to shut that down is illegitmate
J my difficulty is why are we exploring this with MD - she's not the person who said it
NC MD is the person who decided to start an investigation which was sparked by allegations of transphobia so it's important to explore how important or legitimate they are
J rises as she wants to speak to her panel
NC I say that women were entitled to make this point and that trying to shut that down is illegitmate
J my difficulty is why are we exploring this with MD - she's not the person who said it
NC MD is the person who decided to start an investigation which was sparked by allegations of transphobia so it's important to explore how important or legitimate they are
J rises as she wants to speak to her panel
[according to observers, the female Panel member to the right of Judge sturgeon, Professor Deborah Boyd, started to get twitchy when NC started speaking about men who think they're women and trans and it might be why J has called a pause]
[the Panel has returned]
J I've just gone back and looked at the list of issues. Could I ask you - I'm not sure how much MD is going to be able to assist you with the questions that you're asking. You did say that we have a long time with the case, but that doesn't mean we have..
J I've just gone back and looked at the list of issues. Could I ask you - I'm not sure how much MD is going to be able to assist you with the questions that you're asking. You did say that we have a long time with the case, but that doesn't mean we have..
... to fill this so in line with the overriding objective I have an obligation to the 2020 rules
NC yes but the importance of this is that everything flows from whether or not that she was being transphobic so it must be fair to explore what that means and its striking the response from R is when I try to make concrete her understanding so we all know what we are talking about. And so when we talk about TW we know we are talking about men who say they are women.
J well you can put that to the witness - that might be your view and she's entitled to her views.
NC to MD - so let's try to make this concrete - when women in women's services in NI they may encounter men who say they are women
MD transwomen
NC by that we mean the same thing - and it goes further than that doesn't it - a woman might find herself in a situation where she is seeking rape crisis services and find herself in a room with a transwoman
MD I have no idea - I would imagine they are very careful
NC so are transwomen different from women
MD no I am saying they would be compassionate and careful
NC the risk of running a trans-inclusive refuge is that no one can say that a trans inclusive organisation can stop trans women from being a counsellor - it would be a blasphemy
MD blasphemy would be more to do with religion
NC yes people would be shocked
MD she could always refuse
NC exactly - she has a choice - either to be called a bigot and a transphobe if she refuses and then if she agrees she gets taken into a small room with a man to unpack her trauma
NC yes but the importance of this is that everything flows from whether or not that she was being transphobic so it must be fair to explore what that means and its striking the response from R is when I try to make concrete her understanding so we all know what we are talking about. And so when we talk about TW we know we are talking about men who say they are women.
J well you can put that to the witness - that might be your view and she's entitled to her views.
NC to MD - so let's try to make this concrete - when women in women's services in NI they may encounter men who say they are women
MD transwomen
NC by that we mean the same thing - and it goes further than that doesn't it - a woman might find herself in a situation where she is seeking rape crisis services and find herself in a room with a transwoman
MD I have no idea - I would imagine they are very careful
NC so are transwomen different from women
MD no I am saying they would be compassionate and careful
NC the risk of running a trans-inclusive refuge is that no one can say that a trans inclusive organisation can stop trans women from being a counsellor - it would be a blasphemy
MD blasphemy would be more to do with religion
NC yes people would be shocked
MD she could always refuse
NC exactly - she has a choice - either to be called a bigot and a transphobe if she refuses and then if she agrees she gets taken into a small room with a man to unpack her trauma
NC takes us to SM's job description - encourage participation and attendance. Under engagement and relationships it says "A responsibility to maintain current relationships and build positive new
relationships with the Respondent’s audience, participants and
stakeholders."
relationships with the Respondent’s audience, participants and
stakeholders."
NC so part of her job is outreach to marginalised communities - comms who are unable to get their voices heard, communities widely treated with hatred
MD yes
NC and before the first race relations legislation in the UK signs in windows were common "no blacks, no irish no travellers"
MD yes
NC and before the first race relations legislation in the UK signs in windows were common "no blacks, no irish no travellers"
... and that was the marginalisation of despised groups.
MD despised is a bit strong
[debate about suitability of the word despised]
NC the bit about marginalised groups in SM's statement - what sort of groups are we talking about
J you can't ask that question
MD read section...
MD despised is a bit strong
[debate about suitability of the word despised]
NC the bit about marginalised groups in SM's statement - what sort of groups are we talking about
J you can't ask that question
MD read section...
... 75 of the (??? Act) to find out.
NC it's quite important
J name those communities and put it to MD
NC it's fair that sex realist and gender critical women are marginalised and more so in 2023
MD some of my friends have those views
NC so they can't be marginalised
NC it's quite important
J name those communities and put it to MD
NC it's fair that sex realist and gender critical women are marginalised and more so in 2023
MD some of my friends have those views
NC so they can't be marginalised
MD they can
NC so they are marginalised
MD no they're not
NC so they can't be treated with contempt and shunned in polite society
MD no they cannot
[NC takes her to the bundle - MD to Mark Cousins - BFF board member - MC]
NC so they are marginalised
MD no they're not
NC so they can't be treated with contempt and shunned in polite society
MD no they cannot
[NC takes her to the bundle - MD to Mark Cousins - BFF board member - MC]
NC Explain this tweet "Barristers met on Monday.
Sara Palin V BFF. Hearing
date to be set soon x"
NC who is Sara Palin
MD the Claimant
NC why call her that
MD it's a joke
NC explain the joke
MD they are both larger than life characters
Sara Palin V BFF. Hearing
date to be set soon x"
NC who is Sara Palin
MD the Claimant
NC why call her that
MD it's a joke
NC explain the joke
MD they are both larger than life characters
NC so the only sim you are alluding to is that they are both loud ebullient characters
MD says something I didn't hear which she apologises for as it was a joke
J tribunal is not a place for humour
NC what else do you know about SP
MD she's kinda wacky
NC what else
MD she has right wing opinions
NC and that's what you were really saying wasn't it
MD no
MD says something I didn't hear which she apologises for as it was a joke
J tribunal is not a place for humour
NC what else do you know about SP
MD she's kinda wacky
NC what else
MD she has right wing opinions
NC and that's what you were really saying wasn't it
MD no
MD no no I wasn't
NC and gender critical people are quite often smeared as far right
MD some of you are
NC and you were joining in
MD i was making a joke
NC about?
MD the ebullient nature and blustery personality type [of SM], yes
NC and gender critical people are quite often smeared as far right
MD some of you are
NC and you were joining in
MD i was making a joke
NC about?
MD the ebullient nature and blustery personality type [of SM], yes
[we go to a new part of the bundle]
NC this a tweet from Derry anti-fascists "This Sunday, Posie Parker is bringing her hatefest to
Belfast. Local transphobes and the far right are likely
to be in attendance and we intend to make our voices
heard.
There can be no platform for bigotry, fascism, or
transphobia in our city."
NC that's a smearing of GC opinions as part of the far right
MD "smearing is a word I'd never use, but if that's your view I wouldn't disagree with it"
Belfast. Local transphobes and the far right are likely
to be in attendance and we intend to make our voices
heard.
There can be no platform for bigotry, fascism, or
transphobia in our city."
NC that's a smearing of GC opinions as part of the far right
MD "smearing is a word I'd never use, but if that's your view I wouldn't disagree with it"
NC is going to a few tweets "we encourage everyone to attend this
other event - SONGS FOR SOLIDARITY - set up
by a collective of Activists, Unions, LGBTQIA+ &
Women’s Sector ergs. It will be a positive & joyful
rebuke to any oppressive negativity happening in
the city."
other event - SONGS FOR SOLIDARITY - set up
by a collective of Activists, Unions, LGBTQIA+ &
Women’s Sector ergs. It will be a positive & joyful
rebuke to any oppressive negativity happening in
the city."
This one from: Seven Pound Sadie Suggs She/Her W.
"Graham Linehan says he will be there
Bring tomato soup and stepladders - he's a
6'5" adult baby"
NC do you know the tomato soup ref?
MD no
NC [explains]
MD I knew nothing about it
"Graham Linehan says he will be there
Bring tomato soup and stepladders - he's a
6'5" adult baby"
NC do you know the tomato soup ref?
MD no
NC [explains]
MD I knew nothing about it
Lee Hurley says "Lee Hurley @HLeeHurLey - 25m
Posie Parker has changed the location of her
demo in Belfast. I imagine she does not have
permission for here either."
Posie Parker has changed the location of her
demo in Belfast. I imagine she does not have
permission for here either."
Karl Hayden says: "Posies Parker organisers are complaining about the
music and chants drowning out their event. Then
coming over and trying to tell pro-trans supporters
where they can stand."
music and chants drowning out their event. Then
coming over and trying to tell pro-trans supporters
where they can stand."
Bolshie Bish "Who's driving 4.5 hours up to Belfast Sunday just
to tell a transphobe to go fxck herself, and then
driving 4.5 hours home??"
MD I'm seeing all this for the first time
NC having seen them, would you say GC people were a pretty marginalised group
MD possibly yes
to tell a transphobe to go fxck herself, and then
driving 4.5 hours home??"
MD I'm seeing all this for the first time
NC having seen them, would you say GC people were a pretty marginalised group
MD possibly yes
NC SM attended the event in her personal capacity. If she wore a BFF t-shirt, why would that have not been a legitimate piece of outreach as part of her job
MD the way to do it is discuss it and make a plan etc
NC assuming relevant permissions have been got, wouldn't it be...
MD the way to do it is discuss it and make a plan etc
NC assuming relevant permissions have been got, wouldn't it be...
... the right thing to do to make friends with people from marginalised communities.
MD that's not the way we do things. We're a film festival
MD that's not the way we do things. We're a film festival
[we go to par 11 of MD's statement]
"This conversation happened on 13 April 2024, when I was comforting the Claimant and
making sure she was ok. My tone was one of care and compassion towards the
claimant. The Claimant has alleged that I asked whether she would share a toilet with
a transgender woman. This is completely untrue and taken out of context from a
broader conversation. As her Line Manager, I was aware of the Claimant's gender
critical views and out of concern for her welfare. I wanted to make her aware that we
had gender neutral toilet facilities in the Beanbag Cinema. I wanted to make sure the
Claimant was comfortable working there. I absolutely did not ask her would she "share
a toilet with a trans woman". In the same way, it is correct that I asked the Claimant...
"This conversation happened on 13 April 2024, when I was comforting the Claimant and
making sure she was ok. My tone was one of care and compassion towards the
claimant. The Claimant has alleged that I asked whether she would share a toilet with
a transgender woman. This is completely untrue and taken out of context from a
broader conversation. As her Line Manager, I was aware of the Claimant's gender
critical views and out of concern for her welfare. I wanted to make her aware that we
had gender neutral toilet facilities in the Beanbag Cinema. I wanted to make sure the
Claimant was comfortable working there. I absolutely did not ask her would she "share
a toilet with a trans woman". In the same way, it is correct that I asked the Claimant...
... whether she would be happy to work on the Kabosh Trans Project, all out of concern
as to whether she would feel comfortable doing so."
NC you had a private meeting with SM
MD marie lyndsey was there and moyra lock was in and out
NC you asked her if she would ever share a toilet with a transwoman
as to whether she would feel comfortable doing so."
NC you had a private meeting with SM
MD marie lyndsey was there and moyra lock was in and out
NC you asked her if she would ever share a toilet with a transwoman
MD I didn't say that... it's out of context
NC which is it
MD I was telling her about our gender neutral toilets in the building and trying to understand if Sm had a problem with that
so you did ask her
MD I said technically speaking anyone could use the toilets and was she comfortable with that
NC so you did have the convo
MD I didn't say those exact words
NC and she asked you in a convo if male people had the right to change in front of young girls
NC which is it
MD I was telling her about our gender neutral toilets in the building and trying to understand if Sm had a problem with that
so you did ask her
MD I said technically speaking anyone could use the toilets and was she comfortable with that
NC so you did have the convo
MD I didn't say those exact words
NC and she asked you in a convo if male people had the right to change in front of young girls
MD she asked me if my young daughter saw a male changing in a changing room whether I'd be okay with that
NC and it was part of the conversation you were having
MD it was like a gut punch, when she said that bringing my daughter into the conversation like that and painting the
NC and it was part of the conversation you were having
MD it was like a gut punch, when she said that bringing my daughter into the conversation like that and painting the
... picture involving my daughter. It was very challenging.
NC so when she raised the matter of your daughter in a changing room
MD inappropriately so
NC was the subject matter inappropriate or raising the subject of your daughter
MD it could have been said better
NC so when she raised the matter of your daughter in a changing room
MD inappropriately so
NC was the subject matter inappropriate or raising the subject of your daughter
MD it could have been said better
NC human beings work better using vivid, concrete illustrations, rather than abstractions
MD "i think using fear based examples is a kind of low way to go"
NC but isn't that import...
MD "it's a very fear laden example to give me about my child"
NC "but safeguarding 101 is to take nothing on trust. Everyone wants their child to be protected"
MD "of course, yes"
NC and if we look at your statement...
MD [suddenly] I actually need a break.
[judge offers ten minute break]
MD "i think using fear based examples is a kind of low way to go"
NC but isn't that import...
MD "it's a very fear laden example to give me about my child"
NC "but safeguarding 101 is to take nothing on trust. Everyone wants their child to be protected"
MD "of course, yes"
NC and if we look at your statement...
MD [suddenly] I actually need a break.
[judge offers ten minute break]
[at 11.47am NC suggested a break, given we were possibly going on till 1.10pm. MD was offered a break, but said she was fine to carry on.]
[I have been informed by two people that the joke MD came up with in the tribunal in terms of similarities between Sarah Palin and Sara Morrison was "Maybe it was the moose hunting, they both do moose hunting"]
[we are back in session]
[NC takes her to MD's WS where it says she was trying to understand SM's position]
NC SM was trying to tell you her position with an example
MD "I was disturbed because she spoke about my daughter"
NC it was a distressing image
MD "I was disturbed because she was talking about my child"
NC in being angry with SM for spelling out that that's where the claim TWAW leads - you're shooting the messenger
MD whose angry?
NC you criticised SM for taking you to where that belief system leads - you're angry at her - you're shooting the messenger
MD I don't accept that
NC by asking SM if she'd be happy doing a trans film with Kabosh, you're putting her to the test aren't you
MD I don't accept that whatsoever
[NC takes her to MD's WS where it says she was trying to understand SM's position]
NC SM was trying to tell you her position with an example
MD "I was disturbed because she spoke about my daughter"
NC it was a distressing image
MD "I was disturbed because she was talking about my child"
NC in being angry with SM for spelling out that that's where the claim TWAW leads - you're shooting the messenger
MD whose angry?
NC you criticised SM for taking you to where that belief system leads - you're angry at her - you're shooting the messenger
MD I don't accept that
NC by asking SM if she'd be happy doing a trans film with Kabosh, you're putting her to the test aren't you
MD I don't accept that whatsoever
NC from 16 April to 4 May you did not alert the board to what SM had said at LWS
MD they're all volunteers - I try to avoid contacting them outside board meetings
NC why not put it on the agenda
MD didn't have time
NC no intention to raise it under AOB
MD no I was v busy
MD they're all volunteers - I try to avoid contacting them outside board meetings
NC why not put it on the agenda
MD didn't have time
NC no intention to raise it under AOB
MD no I was v busy
MD I didn't have enough time to think it through. We're a tiny organisation. At that time of the year I'm doing three people's jobs and I was under a tremendous amount of strain.
NC "and the board are busy people with their own lievs and volunteers so it would be fair to raise this with them between board meetings"
MD "I would have been reluctant to do that"
NC "and the board are busy people with their own lievs and volunteers so it would be fair to raise this with them between board meetings"
MD "I would have been reluctant to do that"
NC when would the next board meeting have been
MD after Docs Ireland
J asks for dates -
MD end of june - we normally have quarterly board meetings
NC so next one would have been August
MD but after Lucy raised the issue we would have had to have an emergency board meeting
MD after Docs Ireland
J asks for dates -
MD end of june - we normally have quarterly board meetings
NC so next one would have been August
MD but after Lucy raised the issue we would have had to have an emergency board meeting
NC so in run up to 4 May did you know there was an emergency board meeting
MD no - it was only when Lucy (Baxter, I think, BFF board meeting) brought up all the other stuff I think we needed it
NC This is puzzling isn't it?
MD no it's not...
NC let me finish...so was this so bad it needed to be dealt with or was it of no importance hence it didn't go to the board?
MD "I was planning to put it in writing to the chairs as a first step"
MD no - it was only when Lucy (Baxter, I think, BFF board meeting) brought up all the other stuff I think we needed it
NC This is puzzling isn't it?
MD no it's not...
NC let me finish...so was this so bad it needed to be dealt with or was it of no importance hence it didn't go to the board?
MD "I was planning to put it in writing to the chairs as a first step"
NC what happened is that Lucy Baxter took the matter out your hands and raised it at the board meeting
MD yes
NC and it was dealt with briefly under AoB
MD yes
NC and when the minutes were circulated they helpfully had a link to SM's speech
MD yes
NC was that you or Moyra Lock
MD probably Moyra
NC and you authored that note from you - note from MD
MD yes
NC and after the meeting you had a conversation with Lucy Baxter - and on 5 May you put a note to the co-chairs in a bit more detail than was discussed at the board meeting - "In your capacity as Chair(s) I wanted to inform you both of an issue that came up a few weeks ago.
I managed the initial fall out from it and then parked it until I could get some headspace, specifically
get the Docs Ireland Programme finalised and away to the printer."
MD yes
NC and it was dealt with briefly under AoB
MD yes
NC and when the minutes were circulated they helpfully had a link to SM's speech
MD yes
NC was that you or Moyra Lock
MD probably Moyra
NC and you authored that note from you - note from MD
MD yes
NC and after the meeting you had a conversation with Lucy Baxter - and on 5 May you put a note to the co-chairs in a bit more detail than was discussed at the board meeting - "In your capacity as Chair(s) I wanted to inform you both of an issue that came up a few weeks ago.
I managed the initial fall out from it and then parked it until I could get some headspace, specifically
get the Docs Ireland Programme finalised and away to the printer."
NC you're being defensive here aren't you for not telling them sooner
MD no -
NC you go on to say "Yesterday at the board meeting Lucy Baxter mentioned it to me, that a few people she knew had
asked her "what is going on that a BFF employee is speaking at this anti-trans, right wing event (Lucy
was very late and I updated her on zoom once everyone else had left the meeting which is why the
rest of the board missed this conversation)."
MD no -
NC you go on to say "Yesterday at the board meeting Lucy Baxter mentioned it to me, that a few people she knew had
asked her "what is going on that a BFF employee is speaking at this anti-trans, right wing event (Lucy
was very late and I updated her on zoom once everyone else had left the meeting which is why the
rest of the board missed this conversation)."
NC there's no note of this, is there. as to whether that's what she actually said
MD as far as I'm aware
MD as far as I'm aware
NC you don't recall her saying that there were BFF partner orgs who were talking to her - there's nothing in the end of board meeting note, is there?
MD "there's nothing there but... that's correct, there's nothing there."
NC in par 13 of your WS you say "I was a little frustrated that
Lucy hadn’t rang or emailed me in advance to discuss this, as I would have then put it
on the agenda for that meeting. I was very busy at that time and my key focus was
the successful delivery of the Docs Ireland festival."
MD "there's nothing there but... that's correct, there's nothing there."
NC in par 13 of your WS you say "I was a little frustrated that
Lucy hadn’t rang or emailed me in advance to discuss this, as I would have then put it
on the agenda for that meeting. I was very busy at that time and my key focus was
the successful delivery of the Docs Ireland festival."
NC annoyed with lucy?
MD no just frustrated that she had a little bit more information than I had
NC you say you will go to the Equality Commission for advice - and you did?
MD yes I rang them
MD no just frustrated that she had a little bit more information than I had
NC you say you will go to the Equality Commission for advice - and you did?
MD yes I rang them
NC who did you speak to at the EC -
MD I think it might have been one of their solicitors
J no privileged legal advice
NC but we need to establish who she spoke to and in what capacity - if it was in a lawyer client relationship we won't go any further, but initial contact...
MD I think it might have been one of their solicitors
J no privileged legal advice
NC but we need to establish who she spoke to and in what capacity - if it was in a lawyer client relationship we won't go any further, but initial contact...
... is not privileged.
J just to advise you that you do not disclose the legal advice
MD okay
SD I don't agree with NC's view on the narrow view of legal professional privilege, which is why we are happy for it to be unredacted
NC how did you speak to the EC
MD looked up online..
J just to advise you that you do not disclose the legal advice
MD okay
SD I don't agree with NC's view on the narrow view of legal professional privilege, which is why we are happy for it to be unredacted
NC how did you speak to the EC
MD looked up online..
... and made a phone call. Second time had a short convo
NC who was it
MD don't remember the name, but could tell you if I looked at their website
NC was there any other contact between you
MD no
NC so no client care letter came out to you from the solicitor
MD no I don't think so
NC who was it
MD don't remember the name, but could tell you if I looked at their website
NC was there any other contact between you
MD no
NC so no client care letter came out to you from the solicitor
MD no I don't think so
NC what made you say that you thought it was a solicitor you spoke to
MD I think I recognised his name as a solicitor I'd heard of before - I'd need to look it up
NC he didn't say "I'm a solicitor" or anything of the sort
MD I can't recall
NC It's clear this was not a lawyer/client relationship
MD he did use legal phraseology and the sort of things lawyers use
MD I think I recognised his name as a solicitor I'd heard of before - I'd need to look it up
NC he didn't say "I'm a solicitor" or anything of the sort
MD I can't recall
NC It's clear this was not a lawyer/client relationship
MD he did use legal phraseology and the sort of things lawyers use
NC did you pay any money
MD no
NC so do you think a lawyer/client relationship was set up in the course of this conversation
MD I don't know
NC I am going to suggest there is no possible legal privilege here - I think it's legitimate to ask questions about the content of this advice
MD no
NC so do you think a lawyer/client relationship was set up in the course of this conversation
MD I don't know
NC I am going to suggest there is no possible legal privilege here - I think it's legitimate to ask questions about the content of this advice
J SD?
SD I do object
J when people phone the EC - it's difficult - speaking broadly - it could be a solicitor and it would be unusual for it not to be - she could well have been talking to a solicitor but as SD is not obecting [???]
NC my first point would be that even if MD were speaking to a lawyer that does not give it privilege unless there was a lawyer/client relationship in place, but I would say that SD has waived privilege so we must be able to enquire further.
SD I do object
J when people phone the EC - it's difficult - speaking broadly - it could be a solicitor and it would be unusual for it not to be - she could well have been talking to a solicitor but as SD is not obecting [???]
NC my first point would be that even if MD were speaking to a lawyer that does not give it privilege unless there was a lawyer/client relationship in place, but I would say that SD has waived privilege so we must be able to enquire further.
[the now non LPP's lines were: "This advice has a number of implications for us, these are basically around the balance of rights as employers and rights of employees"]
NC how long was the call
MD short - a matter of minutes
NC what are the implications
MD just as it says
NC how long was the call
MD short - a matter of minutes
NC what are the implications
MD just as it says
[MD does not have the unredacted sentence in front of her so NC says we'll come back to it after lunch]
NC on 25 May you get a WhatsApp from MC "Hi Michele. Have tried to find
the video of the Trans rally
that Sarah spoke at. Was it
the Let Women Speak event,
at which Parker Posey spoke
and Graham Lenehan
attended? If so this is more
serious than I thought. I
would like to email the chairs"
NC on 25 May you get a WhatsApp from MC "Hi Michele. Have tried to find
the video of the Trans rally
that Sarah spoke at. Was it
the Let Women Speak event,
at which Parker Posey spoke
and Graham Lenehan
attended? If so this is more
serious than I thought. I
would like to email the chairs"
NC so this is the point MC became aware of SMs participation in the LWS event
SD that's q for MC
[MD says MC was outgoing chair and Marie-Therese and Lisa Barros D'sa were incoming co-chairs]
SD that's q for MC
[MD says MC was outgoing chair and Marie-Therese and Lisa Barros D'sa were incoming co-chairs]
NC on 25 May MC writes to MTM and LBD cc-ing MD and says: "hope yous are well and have got a bit of sunshine!
I'm writing about the Let Women Speak rally in Belfast.
Michele kindly briefed me, and I've seen correspondence between you all, which looks
great and I can see how seriously you're taking this.
I tried to find the footage of our staff member's speech, but haven't. However, I saw a
report of a rally in Belfast at which Parker Posey spoke. I'm sure you're aware of Posey's
i previous comments, but if our staff member shared a platform with her, then this is even
I more serious than I thought.
As a board member I'd like to back you in whatever investigation or process is happening. I
know the staff member in question has a personal family story here - and I like her a lot -
but the principle is clear. Cultural festivals are, amongst other things, acts of solidarity
I with our fellow citizens, especially those whose rights are still contested.
I Obviously we can't control the thoughts of our staff but we can express love rather than
i something much more negative.
I Forgive me for saying the obvious, but I just wanted to tell you my thoughts.
I'll be in Belfast more often in the next few weeks (to make fish pie for my sick mum) and
would enjoy a chat, if you have time.
All best wishes,
i Mark"
I'm writing about the Let Women Speak rally in Belfast.
Michele kindly briefed me, and I've seen correspondence between you all, which looks
great and I can see how seriously you're taking this.
I tried to find the footage of our staff member's speech, but haven't. However, I saw a
report of a rally in Belfast at which Parker Posey spoke. I'm sure you're aware of Posey's
i previous comments, but if our staff member shared a platform with her, then this is even
I more serious than I thought.
As a board member I'd like to back you in whatever investigation or process is happening. I
know the staff member in question has a personal family story here - and I like her a lot -
but the principle is clear. Cultural festivals are, amongst other things, acts of solidarity
I with our fellow citizens, especially those whose rights are still contested.
I Obviously we can't control the thoughts of our staff but we can express love rather than
i something much more negative.
I Forgive me for saying the obvious, but I just wanted to tell you my thoughts.
I'll be in Belfast more often in the next few weeks (to make fish pie for my sick mum) and
would enjoy a chat, if you have time.
All best wishes,
i Mark"
NC how did you brief MC?
MD probably asked him to just watch the video
NC sorry, how did you brief him technically?
MD by phone
NC did you take any notes
MD don't recall
[NC says something has come unstuck in her note and all agree we should stop for lunch until 2.15pm]
MD probably asked him to just watch the video
NC sorry, how did you brief him technically?
MD by phone
NC did you take any notes
MD don't recall
[NC says something has come unstuck in her note and all agree we should stop for lunch until 2.15pm]
[We are half way. Thanks to everyone who has been following this week. If you'd like to to make a small donation to help me keep going, I'd be grateful. You get a nightly newsletter rounding up each day in court for a one-off donation.
]genderblog.net/donate/
]genderblog.net/donate/
I'll take a view on Friday as to whether it's viable to come back for the final days of the tribunal which are scheduled to next Friday, but at this point it may finish sooner. It's another big outlay with flights etc, but it's an interesting case, for sure.
Interestingly I have heard wildly varying estimates from well-informed people as to when the ruling on this case will land. Anything from a couple of weeks until way after Xmas.
Either way the judgment will just be posted online so it won't necessitate another trip for that.
Right - ending this thread here and starting a new one.
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