Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good morning.
This is Day 3, am session#1 of Toshack vs GeoAmey Ltd, from the Edinburgh Employment Tribunal.
We expect to start at 10am.

Mr Toshack (DT) asserts that he was dismissed because of his gender critical beliefs.
His appeal against his dismissal was subsequently upheld. He is claiming harassment, discrimination and indirect discrimination on the grounds of his gender critical beliefs.

Our Substack with background on the case and reporting threads from earlier days of the tribunal can be found here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/toshack-vs-g…

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@tribunaltweets2 The usual disclaimer about our reporting:

@tribunaltweets2 Abbreviations:
DT/C - David Toshack, claimant
DH - David Hay, KC, for claimant
MG - Margaret Gribbon, solicitor for claimant
GA/R - GeoAmey Ltd, respondent, a British company specialising in prisoner transport.
MM - Michael McLauglin, advocate for Rs.

@tribunaltweets2 J - Employment Judge Amanda Jones, sitting alone
ITC - initial training course
CH - Chris Hutton, course trainer
SH - Sarah Harvey, course trainer
SW - Stephan Weir, trainee with DT
FSU - Free speech union
PP - preferred pronouns
PER - Person escort record

@tribunaltweets2 SOP - Standards of practice
PCO - Prison custody officer
BITWB - born in the wrong body
GRC - Gender recognition certificate
GC - Gender critical or sex realist beliefs
GI - Gender identity
TW - Transwoman, a male who identifies as a woman

@tribunaltweets2 TM- Transman, a female who identifies as a man
TP - Trans identifying people
DEI - Diversity, equity and inclusion
SPS - Scottish Prison Service
PCO - Prison Custody Officer
ITC - Introductory Training Course
AGP - Autogynephilia/ Autogynephile
UB - Unconscious Bias

@tribunaltweets2 Swearing in on camera - no sound/
J - Mr Weir (SW) you'll be directed to pages and asked questions by them and me. If you need a break please say. Have you seen SM on case?
SW - no
J - Mr Hay
DH - some issues with charger, will inform if prob.

@tribunaltweets2 DH - name, age, job, epmploer?
SW - SW, PCO and Geoamey
DH - how long a PCO?
SW - a month
DH - when did you start
SW - training last year, started Jan
DH - were you on same course as DT
SW - y
DH - did you know him before?
SW - no.

@tribunaltweets2 DH - we know DT was dismissed 7 Jan 25, have you had any contact?
SW - yes as friends
DH - how often have you met him?
SW - maybe once every 3 months
DH - friends?
SW - yes
DH - have you talked about day he was dismisse?
SW - not really
DH - it came up?
SW - yes

@tribunaltweets2 DH - interested in your recollection, not things DT has said, understand?
SW - yes
DH - on hte course. DIscussion in group setting, your cohort was about 10?
SW - yes
DH - a week or two in came together with another cohort of about 10?
SW - yes
DH - at least 1 trainer in

@tribunaltweets2 DH - room?
SW- yes
DH - CH present?
SW - yes
DH - when DT and CH were present there was a discussion on TP?
SW - yes
DH - how many occasions with DT and CH
SW - 3 or 4
DH -any memorable?
SW - yes
DH - how far into course, that one?
SW - in the middle
DH - 3 weeks in
SW - yes

@tribunaltweets2 DH - who was there, the small or larger group?
SW - larger
DH - how did TP come up that occasion.
*sound difficult*
DH - why did CH talk about that prisoner?
SW - talking about circs around gender of prisoners
DH - why does this stick in memory
SW - he made a statement that was

@tribunaltweets2 SW bizarre
DH - what was bizarre
SW - CH he used the phrase her testicles
DH - and you think that's bizarre
SW ??
DH - are you aware of view or belief that some people don't believe you can change sex
SW - yes
DH - do you ascribe to GC views
SW - 2 genders male and female

@tribunaltweets2 DH -so more GC than opposite side?
SW - yes
DH - CH's comment in that session, was there a reaction
SW - yes
DH - ??
SW - asked if he knew how silly it sounded
DH - response
SW - CH said it might sound it but was situation
DH - any other recruits chipin
SW - a few

@tribunaltweets2 DH - remember who
SW - no
DH -did DT?
SW - yes, just agreed
DH - any recruits express diff view
SW - not that I recall
DH - what was the tone of the discussion
SW - amicable and humorous
DH - and CH's tone to your comment
SW - calm friendly humorous
DH - how long this discuss?

@tribunaltweets2 SW - no more than 10min
DH - did tone change at any point in that session
SW - no, no
DH - did CH object to the comments by you of DT?
SW - no
DH - session of 7th Jan last year now, SH took the session, recall?
SW - yes
DH - CH heavily involved in 6 weeks of training, SH too?

@tribunaltweets2 SW - no, that was the first session
DH - on what topic
SW - HR, rights (?)
DH - and the T issue came up, who brought up treatment of TP
SW - SH
DH - on what topic
SW - emphasis that it's the law, and policy, that we use PP
DH - anything said?
SW - yes
DH - who

@tribunaltweets2 SW - Tosh and I
DH - is that something you said at the meeting?
SW - yes
DH - MISSED
DH - what did DT say
SW - he said it wasn't the law and wouldn't use PP because it's a lie.
DH - did SH respond?
SW - yes contradicted him
J - sorry
SW - and opposed what he said

@tribunaltweets2 DH - led to discussion between DT and SH on that point? how long
SW - yes a couple of minutes
DH - describe gist of discussion
SW - company policy, but not a UK law and was wrong to say that to the class
DH - did DT ay was he was/wasn't prepared to do
SW - yes said wouldn't use

SW - PP or ref as opp sex
DH - on this exchange. Thinking about DT tone?
SW - firm and clear
DH - what was tone of voice
SW - normal
DH - level of voice
SW - normal
DH - language?
SW - firm but respectful
DH - and SH, how was her tone
SW - clear didn't like it, got a bit aggitated

DH - what about her demeanour
SW - quick to speak, straight talk positions
DH - her tone
SW - not loud but bothered by the challenge
DH - did you get an impression of whether she agreed about DT on PP
SW - she strongly disagreed
DH - and SH's language
SW - respectful but in opposition

@tribunaltweets2 DH - any particular words or phrases
SW - yes said it is the UK law several times in response to DT's ideas
DH - which ideas
SW - that he had to call prisoners by PP
DH - anyone else joining conv
SW - no
DH - was this the joint group?
SW - yes
DH - goes on a few mins, then what

@tribunaltweets2 SW - SH asked DT to leave room and wait outside door
DH - next?
SW - she went out and came back in
DH - how long SH was out of room?
SW - 10-15 mins
DH - exchange took place, SH and DT outside, you are inroom with group. Any class reaction?
SW - just faces of disbelief and shock

@tribunaltweets2 DH - was there discussion later
SW - yes, when it was over.
DH - when SH came back, was anything said by her about what happened?
SW - she didnt elaborate
DH - did any of the class say anything on her retunr
SW - I believe she confirmed he was sacked
DH - SH didn't say anything

DH - was anything being said by anyone else about DT being sacked?
SW - no
DH - in stages, we have what she says she said, did any of the class mention what just happened?
SW - no
DH - you said nobody expressed different views at that stage, did there come a point where they did?

@tribunaltweets2 SW - some underlined the rules and policy of GA
DH - any indiv trainees express disagreement with GC views
SW - don't remember anyone specifically
DH - had been with DT for 6 weeks, this was 2 days before the end. How did he conduct himself througout
SW - respectful and engaged

DH - anyone think otherwise
SW - no, there were no issues
DH - did you see DT??? that classroom
SW - no
DH - what happened
SW - I took his things from the classroom
DH - into the hall?
SW - yes, after SH came back
DH - she came back, how much time between her return and you taking things out

@tribunaltweets2 SW - no longer than a minute (Sorry lots of sound crackles)
DH - can you remember what he was wearing?
SW - the GA uniform
DH - you returned his things, what did you do?
SW - back into classroom
DH - any discussion with DH?
SW -
DH - any conv about hwat happened

@tribunaltweets2 SW yes
DH - did you say anything about the classroom
???
How did DT seem
SW - Shocked and upset.

J - MM?
MM - you hadnt met DT before course?
SW - no
MM got to know on course, on overnights would you have coffee? drinks?
SW - yes
MM - discuss?
SW - interest in sports etc
MM

@tribunaltweets2 MM did you talk abou sex and gender?
SW - during course yes
MM - Tiffany Scott (TS)?
SW - yes
MM - are you sure TS sessions were led by CH?
SW - ?
MM - sessions led to you two discussing sex/gender in own time?
SW - **sorry this is very hard to hear**
MM - you are religious

@tribunaltweets2 SW - yes
MM - did you discuss what you thought of people who do beleve you can change sex
SW - no, didn't concern us
MM - CH discussion, did you talk about your views?
SW - I believe I did once or twice
MM - generally, the gist?
SW - TS and her testicles, how that rationally

@tribunaltweets2 SW - and logically sounds, it's bizarre
MM - did you say only M and F and can't change
SW - yes
MM to CH
SW - not sure
MM but during course
SW - yes
MM - said in front of CH? asking because situations with TP were discussed, did you say
SW - by that point in the course

@tribunaltweets2 MM your views were not secret?
SW - no not on the course
MM - 7th Jan 25, remind me what point TP discussion started, and why
SW - discussion about UK law you have to use TP PP's which was incorrect.
MM - *page discussions* pg 53, doc called safer custody.

@tribunaltweets2 MM - page 456, do you remember this presentation by SH?
SW - not really
MM - others will say this sparked the conv between SH and DT. SH said women in custody leaflet had to be given to TW too, MtF, you can see it includes TW. Others say this was the point when the conv started

@tribunaltweets2 MM - I'm putting it to you this is when it started, do you remember it
SW - that is not what started it
MM how sure
SW - it was when SH said it was law
MM - I'm putting it to you you are wrong and she was right
SW - no comment
MM - SH will also say you have to record in PER

@tribunaltweets2 MM - that leaflet is given and say have to read. remember that?
SW - no
MM - might she have
SW - maybe, maybe not
MM - then she says she reminded to be mindful of pronouns, she her was the rule and described a violent incident as a result of PP not being used. DO you remember

@tribunaltweets2 SW - yes
MM - several PCO's being injured
SW - don't receall
MM - but you remeber discussion
SW - yes
MM - she says at this point DT said M is M and F is F when discussing searching
SW - yes
MM - do you remember him saying he wouldn't use He or Sh or use name provided for TP

@tribunaltweets2 SW - yes
MM did he also say born a man stay a man? or similar
SW - yes
MM - did he mention religion
SW - it was brought up but i don't know when
MM - SH talked about GA policy and SPS guidance on how TP are treated
SW - yes
MM -said even if you don't agree, you have to put those

@tribunaltweets2 MM - beliefs aside and stick to policy. Rmeember something that?
SW - yes
MM - remember as a PCO treat TP???
SW - yes
MM - did DT say he didn't agree with searches and wouldn't do it
SW - along those lines
MM - do you recall SH talking about food, water and toilet access

@tribunaltweets2 SW - yes
DH - and DT said ????
SW - not entirely
MM - something along lines
SW - rephrase
MM - SH was talking about access to food, water and toilets and these should be granted and written on form, basic human rights. DT said I wouldn't if not necessary
SW - don't recall

MM - earlier you said you contributed to conv
SW - I agreed it wasn't Scottish law that you had to use PP
MM - was DT's voice raised
SW - no
MM - sure about that?
SW - yes
MM demeanour?
SW - normal
MM passionate
SW - respectful
MM - SH says loud, challenging and ???
SW - no
MM sure

@tribunaltweets2 SW - yes I'm sure
MM - SH asked him to leave
SW - yes
MM - as they left you stayed, SH returned 10-15 later
SW - yes
MM - you said she didn't say anything on return
SW - yes
MM - you then said, she said to cohort that DT had been sacked.
SW - I confused with another incident

MM - describe layout of room and what happened in the 10-15 mins
SW - sitting at tables, desks round sides in pairs.
MM - you wer esitting alone
SW - yes
MM - you weren't talking about incident?
SW - there was chatter about it
MM - when SH came back, some expressed that DT had been

@tribunaltweets2 MM - a nightmare on the ITC and it wasn't the job for him
SW - no, noody said that
MM - you were on your own, so if someone had said that to SH, you may not have heard
SW - not in this instance.
MM - you jus tsaid there was chatter you couldnt hear. She came back, surely possible

@tribunaltweets2 MM - might you not have been able to hear rest of cohort
SW - no
MM - you said there was chatter you didn't hear. so SH comes back and you say it's impossible you didn't hear
SW - I said i heard nothing of that sort.
MM - you like DT and share his views.
SW - yes
MM - you chipped

MM - in in support
SW - on what was real
MM - your views are aligned, you aren't objective or impartial because you are alighned.
SW - I understad your point but I'm just saying what happened
MM - no it[s your perception of tone and demeanour, it's subjective
SW -no, its hwat Isaw

@tribunaltweets2 J - is this not a point for submissions, you are asking him to accept his perception is influenced by alignment of views...
MM - there's one specific point from SW evidence. in answer to a question you said SH strongly disagreed and seemed offended.
SW - body language

SW voice rose and sped up, her whole body language, repeatedly crossing legs, pursing of lips,agitated.
MM - how far from her were you, you seem to have a very detailed view of her from a year ago
SW - it's what I saw
MM - you've seemed unsure about other things, but very detailed

@tribunaltweets2 MM -on SH body language
SW - yes because it was an important moment, i was paying attention
MM - your speech has speeded up are you under pressure
SW - no
MM - you like DT, share his views??????Missed????

SW - I am stating what I've seen and heard.

@tribunaltweets2 J - reexam?
DH - yes, you were directed to slide/leaflet, qu was SH recalls that as the catalyst. You said no comment to whether she was correct, what is your memory of when it started
SW - yes that wasn't the moment it started.
DH -
**sound cutting out**

@tribunaltweets2 ** Sound still out****
DH - .....might be v serious
SW - yes

SW leaves

J - short break
***discussion happening, can see but not hear***

DH - there is more discussion to be had on whether there's to be///
J - mysterious
DH - looking at an objection...
J - Ms Lauchland? 20 past

@tribunaltweets2 @threadreaderapp please unroll