Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good morning.
This is Day 4, am session#1 of Toshack vs GeoAmey Ltd, from the Edinburgh Employment Tribunal.
We expect to start at 10am.

Mr Toshack (DT) asserts that he was dismissed because of his gender critical beliefs. His appeal against his dismissal was subsequently upheld. He is claiming harassment, discrimination and indirect discrimination on the grounds of his gender critical beliefs.

Our Substack with background on the case, and reporting threads from earlier days of the tribunal can be found here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/toshack-vs-g…

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The usual disclaimer about our reporting:

Abbreviations:
DT/C - David Toshack, claimant
DH - David Hay, KC, for claimant
MG - Margaret Gribbon, solicitor for claimant
GA/R - GeoAmey Ltd, respondent, a British company specialising in prisoner transport.
MM - Michael McLauglin, advocate for Rs

J - Employment Judge Amanda Jones, sitting alone
ITC - initial training course
CH - Chris Hutton, course trainer
SH - Sarah Harvey, course trainer
SW - Stephan Weir, trainee with DT
FSU - Free speech union
PP - preferred pronouns
PER - Person escort record

SOP - Standards of practice
PCO - Prison custody officer
BITWB - born in the wrong body
GRC - Gender recognition certificate
GC - Gender critical or sex realist beliefs
GI - Gender identity
TW - Transwoman, a male who identifies as a woman

TM- Transman, a female who identifies as a man
TP - Trans identifying people
DEI - Diversity, equity and inclusion
SPS - Scottish Prison Service
PCO - Prison Custody Officer
AGP - Autogynephilia/ Autogynephile
UB - Unconscious Bias

We are now attending remotely and had significant issues with the sound quality on our previous day of reporting. We hope the sound will improve today and will do our best.

The courtroom is currently empty so there will be some delay.

The courtroom is beginning to fill up now so we hope to be starting soon.

Presumably a new F witness being sworn in by religious oath. A Miss Ross
MR I work for GA for just over a year
MM Do you remeber SW and DT?
MR Yes. I work for Edin High Court doing transport
MM I want to ask u about the 7 Jan session of the training

MM There was an exchange betwn SH and DT.
MR I cant remember who started it but the conversation was about treatment of T. He said he wasnt comfy w that situation
MM What do u remmber him saying
MR we were talking about searches and who searches T ppl [v hard to catch]

MR Talking about those that hadnt transitioned. He said it was silly to ask F Qs of a male. He wasnt aggressive but had a strong opinion. Saying what he believed and what he was going to do
MM What was SH like
MR She was trying to say this is what yr job is despite yr beliefs

MR I cant remember exactly how it ended
MM How did u feel during the exchange
MR We felt it unusual to have such an opinion. Ppl were a bit flabergasted by the opinion and what's going to happen now?
MM Can u remember how SH left the room
MR ??

MR Ppl were chatting whilst they were out of the room
MM ANd when she returned. Did u hear any convos
MR I cant recall
MM Did SW say anything during the exchange
MR I cant remember anything
MM No further Qs

DH I have some Qs. Yr interactions w ST. U were in the same cohort

DH How did u get on
MR Quite well. Everybody did.
DH There's been evidence ??
MR No
DH About 10 in the cohort? Did anyone else have ? with/to DT
MR Not that I can think of
DH Just before 7 Jan, Mr Hutton was involved.
Yes

DH CH gave egs of his own experience of prisoners, supplementing the training materials. Did he discuss T prsioners
Yes
DH Tiffany Scott
Yes. Were a few stories as quite infamous. They used to self harm so taken to hospital were we'd still w the,

DH Before week 6
MR Yes, mentioned a few times
DH Re Tiffany Scott he mentioned her testicles
MR Vaguely recollect. Yes, was a bit of a giggle
DH That reaction led to a discussion?
MR Nothing I can remember stood out. I'm sure ppl had something to say but I cant remember

DH He said it sounded ridiculous. Do u remember that
MR I cant remember word by word what was said. He possibly said it but nothing sticks in my mind. I dont recall the incident

DH 1st sheet in class. She had a powerpoint
MR Yes
DH Do u recollect anything about when the incident started
MR I dont remember what she was saying
DH U didnt consider him to be aggressive but had strong opinions. Anything u remember

MR He was a bit animated
DH [missed]
MR He was starting to sound heated but not to the extent y'd think ughh. That was maybe the point at which s/he left
Dh Was ? a surprise
MR we didnt know what wld happen and expected him to be back at the hotel but none of us seen him

DH Did DT come back into the room
MR He maybe collected his phone but didnt say anything
DH Did u learn that he's had his job terminated
MR Yes, I think back at the hotel
DH Were u surprised by this
MR A little bit. He was a bit forward w his opinions. Maybe ppl took it

as him being a bit less tolerant
DH U work in court sector and fairly new
MR Yes
DH Have u had any T prisoners
MR No
DH U reference the form re interactions w prisoners.
MR They're handwritten
DH There'd be a PER form when delivered to you
MR Yes, we fill out part B

MR and Part A already filled. Yes, I've completed them. U start writing it immed from taking them in van and fill out welfare every 30 mins
DH Who do u give it to
MR It goes back to the prison. The prison takes 1 copy and we take 2 back
DH Do prisoners see what u write
MR They can't see the paperwork area
DH No further Qs
J Any cross
MM When u take them from prison this part on p551 is alredy filled out
MR Yes

MR [discussing checking form has been correctly completed eg over property]
MM Who fills out part A in the event of ? At 5.2, this wld be the PCO completing? Box for names. U havent dealt w a T prisoner. U would replicate a F name
MR Yes, we copy what's already in

MM But y'd have to fill out if not completed
Yes
MM Completion is as you go through the room
MR ??
MM Does the PER form go w them?
MR Yes They have sev ppl w them during the day
MM Have u written a PER whilst in the back of van w prisoners
Yes

MM No further Qs [apologies but MR had a very strong accent]
J Thank you, you're free to go. The next witness is Mr Hutton? [CH] Can you call him in so that we don't have to wait for the clerk?
MM Mr Sinclair is coming this afternoon [discussion of hearing loop systems]
J Swears CH in

J MM will ask u some Qs and then DH and then prob me. Have u seen any SM coverage
CH No
CH Chris Hutton age 48. I've worked for GA for 22 years.
MM You've moved from other suppliers but 22 years
Yes
MM Before that
CH Education custody officer, seconded to help with ?

CH HMPI Ashford.
MM Before Dungable?
CH NEC on ? programme.
MM Yr 1st job w Reliance
CH I was asked if I'd thought about PCO and had an interview at which successful.
MM What was instructors role
CH Set out SPS guidance and ensure was legal
MM With SOPs and policies

CH Yes
MM ANy training
CH Yes, internal and ext agencies.
MM Did Reliance have an ICT? Did the same role
CH Yes, and I taught this
MM Did u focus on any area of training
CH Handcuffing, how to search, then ?,
MM So a variety of modules on ITC

CH I started G4S at ?
MM As an instructor
CH Yes
CH Was the same job and all my time at G4S
MM In 2019 had a new contract w GA. Same job?
CH Yes
MM Still w GA as
CH Instructor. Training manager is John Sinclair. Am called a training officer

MM Looking at ITC. How many cohorts and trainees in past 12 months
CH Over 200 last year
MM So ITC run all the time
CH back to back
MM Typically take certain modules? How much actual teaching
CH Quite a lot. Depends on the skill set of the instructors available

CH Yes, I also do operational work
MM what sort
CH Most Mondays I operational work for GA. They might ask me to help out. Asst Manager work too. Sent out w the Police to do ? I cover all aspects of the job

MM Has this also been part of the job
CH Yes, always for all employers. To keep yr hand in
MM Do u need reaccreditation
CH Yes, every year. Manager refresher courses every 3 years. And specific training the co may ask for
MM And u need re-accred as a trainer
CH Yes. Various courses

MM Turning now to DTs cohort starting in Nov 2024. You did the EDI training in week 1.
CH Yes
MM On p541, turning over the pages are u familiar w this
CH Yes, I used this with DT
MM The presentation talks about all inclusive and equal, inclusion..

MM The learning objectives re personal responsibility. The EA
CH Yes
MM Re 25 Nov session. Was there gen discussion re content
CH Yes, it;s a safe place to discuss anything. Discussed Sex orientation as ppl have opinions. Ppl dont take things outside the room

Ch Have to make sure things dont get out of hand
MM So moderate to ensure stays respectful
CH Yes
MM Y're trying to promote discussion
Yes
MM How did things unroll
CH Subject got to T ppl. DT thought M amand and a woman a woman. He was bringing his opinion but we quickly moved onto another topic

Nothing untoward.
CH He also said he had his religious belief which he's entitled to. Others have positions on sexual orientation. it was a discussion
MM It was a general discussion
Yes
MM At this session or a subsequent one, was the behav of Tiffany Scott brought up
CH Yes, Someone asked for an eg. How wld u deal with this. Said real name is ANdy Burns but this is how they ID

MM U discussed TS's testicles using she/her that caused mirth or incredulity in the cohort
CH N I dont remember that. It's not something I'd bring up. I dont remember that but TS was discussed

MM You conclude the EDI
CH At the end of the course, everything discussed stays in the classroom [missed due to accent] Told to come and discuss any issues or concerns.

MM Do you remember ? session
CH Yes
MM Turn to p367. What do u see
CH [missed]
MM At top of page on 25 Nov where the trainee signs. Is this completed by the trainee
CH Yes, have a session w the PCO we check there arent any issues they want us to know about

MM This doc is about interviews of trainee.
CH We sit down w the indiv and have a chit chat. Forms about hire car and courts. Cld be anything at all. A chit chat where we take info down
MM This signature is yrs. Says no problems
CH Yes. There's always a meeting

MM [discussing signatures each week] Is this Mr McGregor? Says good week here. The course evaluation is on this form, the material used.
CH Yes, we'll take feedback onboard
MM Week 4 re techniques. Room a bit small but no problems. Then an interview with you - a good week

CH Yes, control and restraint.
MM week 5 also no problems. Things progressing well
CH Yes
MM On 7 Jan. Did u have any issue w DT before this
CH No. He was a good student
MM How many sessions u taught
CH I cant remember

CH He didnt raise any concerns with me, no
MM Re 7 Jan, was taken by SH. She spoke to you and Pollock. What time
CH I cant recall exactly. I was ? in main office
MM Who did SH approach first. U had a convo w Miss Pollock and SH
Yes

MM She said
CH She was teaching safeguarding and on TGs, she said he said something about them ?? and asked him to fo to the staff canteen
MM Did u respond
CH I was surprised [missed]
MM U were surprised about turn of events. Where did u meet him shortly after

MM Why did it take place here (small room)
CH It was the only room available
MM Someone got DT from the canteen
CH I cant remember who
MM How did he present
CH He looked angry. His face was a bit red.

MM We'll go through this 2 page note. DT takes a seat and u tell him why the mtg is taking place
Yes
MM {reads re not going to lie and going against his beliefs]
CH Yes, thats what I remember
MM You explained re legal obligs and policies
CH Yes, I said that

MM What law is this
CH SPS says we must treat someone who IDs as F as F. It's the EA
MM WHat does it say
CH Missed
MM You say sex orientation, but thats different
Yes
MM It's yr understanding of the EA
CH Yes
MM He said he also had rights ie GC. Did u understand what he meant

CH At the time I understood that he had religious beliefs about this
MM That was yr understanding
Yes
MM So if they have a GRC, u have to treat them as such. Now look at p220

MM A doc related to TG and non-binary.
CH Yes. I'm famililar w it
MM They are legally recog as their gender w a GRC but you dont need a certificate
CH Yes
MM [reads re policy and how they ID] Legal name must be used

CH ??
MM So yr statement that by law they have to treat acc to GRC but GA policy goes further
Yes
MM He said he would not lie. Did he use the word lie
Yes
MM WHat did u understand he meant
CH He wldnt class a M as a F and wld treat them as M

MM He was being asked to abide by policy rather than lie
Yes
MM Art 10 allows GC beliefs. Did u understand what he meant by Art 10
CH Missed
MM U said he cld have his beliefs but had to treat ppl the same.
CH Yes I discussed the PER doc. [discussed pronouns]
MM Let's look at the PER

MM On p451, we see [lists name, age etc] If u have a TW who has a F gender and changed to a F name. What do u fill out in Part A
CH I'd expect the F name
MM Wld be affirmed gender but legal M name
Yes
MM what wld u expect. M or F
Female

MM Wld u expect it to be dispatched in that way
CH Yes
MM What things can arise
CH Cld get out on bail, seen to be healthy by the judge [missed]
MM How often does this happen
CH All the time

MM On p452, re reverting to receiving a PER and not walk ins. Who completes Part 2
CH I do
MM Re a TW, what name wld u expect
CH A Female name [missed]
MM Do u know of any incident arising from this form being filled in incorrectly

CH Yes, with an MPV. Could be due to custody issues or pregnancy or self harming needing precautions. Lots of scenarios when appropriate
MM Can u describe an incident
CH I wasnt there but heard of the violent incident later

MM Lots of discussion afterwards
CH Yes. A self harmer TG was being moved. Had lots of sensitive information. They wrote 'he' and the PCO was assaulted.
MM The PER form generally is important?
CH Very
MM Turn to p461.

MM U say it's better to not complete PER in fron tof prisoners. For all
Yes
MM Can they get to see a PER. By accident
CH ?? [they can see legally]
MM DT saying he wldnt need to fill in a PER
CH He has to. Every PCO must
MM He'd be in Krkcaldy courts. SO he'd have to write on form

CH 100%
MM Why is this document so long, over 100 pages
CH In some cases there may be changes. They need to know all this information. We spend the whole day on ITC teaching about this form

MM Back to p571. DT said he wasnt going to call a M a woman as against his beliefs. What did u mean by saying you understand
CH He can have his beliefs but has to apply the policy
MM It says as u cant follow policy we have to terminate his employment
Yes
MM He said he wldnt be disrespectful. He cld use them or they here
CH Yes

MM what egs did u give of using thems instead
CH It's treating ppl as how they ID for respect. They or them isnt how they ID
MM SO creates the same risk as u described earlier
Yes
MM Re it taking too long to write they /them
CH I didnt say that (??)
MM U seem to ask DT re searching a TG with a GC. WHy did u ask this Q?

CH [about putting himself in danger]
MM But he said he'd do the search
CH Yes
MM He says he's not going to lie about their gender even if I'll search them
CH He wld treat them as the sex they were

MM U say we have to treat acc to GRC but it's wider than that
Yes
MM Why did u say y're entitled to yr strong views?
CH [missed]
MM How was his tone
CH He was upset. Had quite a sharp voice.

CH How can u ID if someone was born a M if IDs as F.
MM He says it's a lie. He's recorded as saying he'd comply w searching. He said it's an ideology
CH Yes
MM You said it's inconsistent what he'd be willing to do
CH Yes, It wldnt add up
MM He wldnt write in the paperwork

CH Yes
MM [reads re following policies and not his personal beleifs] He argued about personal beliefs
CH I cant remember exactly
MM U record it being about the law. At this stage, DT is said to have asked why he cldnt write the name
Yes

MM It might be put to you that DT was offering to use a chosen name rather than the legal name
CH No.
MM Yr saying he didnt say that
CH [unclear]
MM That's not recorded in the note
CH No
MM Explained the need to apply policies

MM You said he failed probation as wldnt comply with the policies and expressed regret
CH Yes
MM PCOs dont carry out operational work but paid full salary
CH Yes
MM So 5.5 wks
CH Yes
MM So put up in H Inn every week in his own room
CH Yes. The company pays for meals

MM And the car hire
CH They have for the duration if live far away
MM For the duration of his ITC
CH I dont know
MM ALso cost of the trainers
CH Yes
MM So a signif investment in an individual
CH Yes
MM How many are dismissed
CH Not frequent although they may leave the course otherwise

MM Re DTs views, he describes as GC. Have other ppl his views in the system
CH Yes
MM How common is this
CH [missed]
MM As far as u know ppl with his views work for GA
CH Yes

MM Do u remeber SW
CH Yes
MM Do u remember him discussing his views on sex and gender
CH ??
MM [new page] It says yr refusal to work within eqaulity legislation and policies related to TG ppl in our care
CH Yes
MM Y're responsible for protecting TG ppl and their rights under legisaltion

CH It was the fact he'd refuse to treat TG ppl the way they were that led to his dismissal
MM What about SHs reaction (??)
CH He'd put himself at risk and his colleagues at risk by not following policy

MM Between 30-60 mins after the encounter u told him he was being dismissed. U were acting too fast?
CH He was firm he wldnt follow the paperwork so we had no other choice
MM On p573, notif of leaver form. It says on behalf of John Sinclair your name is typed
Yes

MM [reads re breaking the code of conduct. His SM has been checked and he has extremist posts so he shouldnt be employed in the future]
CH I didnt look at his SM but was told about it by HR

J I'm going to suggest an early lunch and we then go to cross exam. Return at 12.50

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