Thread by @tribunaltweets2

Good morning, this is the final hearing day of Toshack vs GeoAmey. For Women Scotland vs Scottish Ministers continues on @tribunaltweets

We expect to continue at 10 am with a final witness. The tribunal is expected to adjourn from approximately 11:30 then return to public session at 2:30 pm for any oral submissions.
Our previous coverage and background on the case can be found here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/toshack-vs-g…

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The usual disclaimer about our reporting:

Abbreviations
DT/C - David Toshack, claimant
DH - David Hay, KC, for claimant
MG - Margaret Gribbon, solicitor for claimant
GA/R - GeoAmey Ltd, respondent, a British company specialising in prisoner transport.
MM - Michael McLauglin, advocate for Rs

J - Employment Judge Amanda Jones, sitting alone
ITC - initial training course
CH - Chris Hutton, course trainer
SH - Sarah Harvey, course trainer
SW - Stephan Weir, trainee with DT
FSU - Free speech union
PP - preferred pronouns
PER - Person escort record

SOP - Standards of practice
PCO - Prison custody officer
BITWB - born in the wrong body
GRC - Gender recognition certificate
GC - Gender critical or sex realist beliefs
GI - Gender identity
TW - Transwoman, a male who identifies as a woman

TM- Transman, a female who identifies as a man
TP - Trans identifying people
DEI - Diversity, equity and inclusion
SPS - Scottish Prison Service
PCO - Prison Custody Officer
AGP - Autogynephilia/ Autogynephile
UB - Unconscious Bias

We are reporting remotely and have had some significant issues with sound quality. We hope these improve but will do our best.

The witness is Gavin Redmond (GR), GeoAmey employee, identified on GeoAmey website as 'account manager for Scottish Prison Service Escort Services.
We begin.

J - formalities with GR, he swears, explains how process will go
J - when you're ready MM
MM - confirm name and age
GR - confirms
MM - how long employed, title
GR - unclear
MM - what is your role
GR - make sure we respect our contractual obligations and the law

MM - background
GR - I've been in the prison service for more than 20 years, details various roles
MM - what was last job as PCO
GR - various management roles, then moved to headquarters,
MM - this was when escort service was in house, your last role was in relation to the

outsourcing of the transport service
GR - confirms, 3rd generation of service contract
MM - what was that
GR - each contract is about 8 years long, this is the 3rd contract
MM - <unclear>
GR - <describing role further but only one word in 3 comprhensible>

MM - directs to GR bundle, what is page 78
GR - part of contract with Scots gov
MM - dated March 2018, parties are Scottish Ministers and lists parts of contract
GR - confirms
MM - customer is Scots gov
GR - yes
MM - definitions, 'escort monitor' appointed by customer to ensure

compliance with contract, what is that
GR -escort monitor has statutory responsibility to oversee the contract, meet monthly, join management meetings, and any necessary adjustments
MM - on SPS side of fence
GR - yes, SPS employees
MM - are they independent
GR - there are 3 or 4

escort monitors (EM), all employees of SPS, report to head of SPS
MM - back to contract 'service provider needs to provide services to satisfaction of customer'
GR - yes
MM - service provider needs to adopt any new policies, protocols required by customer

GR - yes, we need to follow that
MM - reads out additional obs of GA to SPS, that's a further obligation
GR - yes
MM - takes GR to PER, there's been a fair amount of evidence in tribunal about this form....contract says needs to complete and accurate do you see that
GR - yes

MM - and then form sets out bits of info that is required, do you see that
GR - yes
MM - now reads out part of section entitles care, each prisoner to be dealt with according to unique needs, deal sensitively with protected characteristics do you see that
GR - yes

MM - sex and gender are pcs, now on to Equality and Diversity, says service provider shall provide services sensitive to needs of prisoners and in accordance with EA.
GR - yes
MM - staff need to have adequate training in equality and diversity
GR - yes

MM - in carrying out services, need to respect express and implied provisions of EA. Now onto risk assessment, GA needs to provide SG with necessary information, can you bring this to life for us
GR - takes various forms, the EM make visit the GA sites, they will conduct audits

to ensure we deliver in acc with contract, also thematic audits,
MM - whats that
GR - would consist of any clause in terms of its application, they would do a deep dive review of GA performance
MM - give us an example
GR - say handcuffing processes, how and policies

GR - also may review GA back office procedures, all need to be approved by EM, there are many procedures, there's always things going through the cycle, feedback on those procedures, new procedures etc
MM - process for updating SOPs?
GR - our governance process is for policy

holder to be resp for any review of SOP, then goes to an internal panel of stakeholders, then to safety experts, provide feedback, then comes to me as the contract director and then goes to the customer for final approval.
J - can I be clear about something, you said about

having to be approved - is it just policies or staff as well?
GR - my response was just on policies
J - just policies then that have to be approved by the customer
MM - in relation to your employees, on the contract, does the EM have input to hiring
GR - any member of staff

who might be involved in searches has to be identified and approved and checks done, we do internal checks, make recommendation to customer. We propose that each indiv <sound goes bad again>
MM - who's the decision maker about who can work on the contract
GR - no question it is

customer, Scottish Prisoners
MM - do you have a union
GR - one recognised trade union
J - we heard evidence about needing to let customer know about changes in staffing, is it a weekly communication of ins and outs
GR - correct
J - in writing?
GR - two reasons for it, one is

oversight, that is in writing the secondary reason is for sharing info on number of staff is ongoing contract performance to make sure we have enough staff to deliver the service.
J - thank you, back to trade unions
MM - on union participation, takes to policy, we see date of

22 March, are you familiar with this <missed some> now asking about trans policies
GR - yes
MM - do you remember anyone ever flagging this policy that the union was not comfortable with the policy
GR - I don't
MM - did union ever raise any issues with the policy
GR - union have

never approached me.
MM - on to DTs personal circumstance were you involved
GR - I was not involved
MM - what's your perspective on this re CH, let me give you his side of the story, we heard a scenario where DT said m is m, w is w, I won't call them anything else, refused to

PPs, but what he will do is use pref name, willing to search a TM but not call male, and lastly in terms of PER form would not tick female if indiv is male, would not do that. And wouldn't use he/him she/her on form. That's was CH told us, <sound has gone bad again>

MM - if it was put to you would this be a reasonable approach to situation
GR - SOP are there to give me comfort that things are being done consistently and that risks are properly manager, any employee who knowingly and openly is communicating they will not follow SOP brings

an unnecessary risk to themselves and colleagues. I can't see any alternatives here for someone employed to be a PCO.
MM - finished
DH - good morning (MG now speaking with DH, brief pause)
DH - good morning, I have a few qs, I represent DT, picking up on last point, you made

reference to level of risk to colleagues, is risk assessed by GA in undertaking prisoner services
GR - it's integral to everything we do, making that risk assessment, the basic tool is the PER
DT - we often talk about risk assessment, one is dynamic decision, and there are also

written risk assessments undertaken by those looking at overall operations, they might take some steps to ascertain how much risk and level of risk. A similar process is undertaken. How is the PER a tool? Isn't it just a record, not a dynamic risk assessment.
GR - can do both

the info that is provided in the PER informs the officer in advance on a host of matters, which deployment tactics to use, how much risk, etc
DH - you were asked about the involvement with changes in policies and procedures, we have both GA SOPs and SPS SOPS, is that in respect

of GA policies or SPS policies
GR - <answer unclear>
DH - EM might have views of staffing of GA, process of certification for PCOs - when is that done? We know that DT was employed and went on ITC, so when does he get the badge?
GR - they get the badge on final day of ITC

DH - how does the EM satisfy themselves that a person on course is going to get the badge
GR - GA has responsibility to propose that every PCO is a fit and proper person, the completion of all the modules within the training course and the training teams opinion that they meet

the criteria.
DH - the recommendation or proposal you ref'd to for 'the badge' comes from GA, on last day of course.
GR - in fact this starts a few days earlier, 48 hours before end of course, EM is notified, and PCO certification is invoked
DH - the EM confirms badge at end

of course
GR - yes that's right
DH - how much time does EM have with this
GR - usually the course ends on Wednesday, final by Friday
DH - so GA would only recommend those who completed course and were competent
GR - yes
DH - would the EM usually abide by recomm of GA

GR - yes
DH - what is the sign off process by trainers
GR - I'm not aware of how that process works
DH - if the EM expects that certification applies by Wed, to all those on cohort, those still on course, expectation is all would be recommended
GR - yes

DH -weekly comm on staffing also method to communicate with customer
GR - yes
DH - now on changes to SOPs, methods, systems, etc now there is a mechanism for proposals, changes, sign offs, is it possible that a change might start from a convo with a PCO
GR - don't know

DH - is there a way for GA to raise qs about SOPS? Should there be.
GR - we have various ways to communicate
DH - on the contract, we see dated March 2018, beginning of contract,
GR - date of contract, service began Jan 2019,
DH - you had some involv in drafting of contracts

while in SPS,
GR - yes, I did
DH - would there typically be a fairly standard approach, scrutinised by those who tendered but didn't win, what is possibility for changes after that
GR - there have been 7 amendments to the contract, the vast majority for commercial matters

DH - did you have an awareness of SPS policies for TP in custody
GR - policies when I was an officer, were far more primitive, but I had a general understanding of these policies
DH - when did you leave SPS
GR - I left in May 2018 (very crackly)

DH - TP in custody policy, dated 2023, were you aware of these
GR - shared with me yes
DH - it's not clear to me what this doc is, this is described as a summary, has a header and footer, says exec summary - have you seen this doc?
GR - prior to submission of the bundle had not

seen this
DH - says 'TG prison population very small' now the prison population will evolve over time, is there a large cohort of prisoners serving sentences but also those on remand, etc. But I just wondered that the population of TG appears very small - do you have a basis to

disagree
GR - based on my exp, not very big
DH - .3%?
GR - the services provided by GA are broader, we also facilitate transfers to hospitals, places of employment, some we provide continuous service to prisoners who are in hospital, one we have been looking after continuously is

transgender.
DH - the one person is admitted to hospital
GR - yes, inpatient, needs constant supervision
DH - but what percentage of TG
GR - the volume changes on day to day basis but that's unusual
DH - staying with the contract

looking at section on certification of service, page 675, it essentially a number of assorted thing that the contract envisages, including the PER
GR - not an exhaustive list
DH - nothing here on sex or gender
GR - there is not, if I may
DH - your counsel may ask you but this is

my qs.
DH There appears to be space to consider changes or alterations to the PER, do you agree with that
GR - yes
DH - now on equality and diversity, obl on GA to ensure that services is provided in accordance with needs of prisoners, staffs others, in accordance with EA

not only TPs but also it's own staff, must comply with EA do you agree with that
GR - <long pause> inaudible response
DH - mentioned policy on TP shared with you, SPS op guidance, is this also shared with you?
GR - yes
DH - does this address situations where someone come from

custody but also are taken into custody, correct
GR - yes
DH - an expectation that contract provider needs to make contact on where to admit that prisoner, an expectation not just of a form but comms between someone in GA and someone SPS
GR - contr obligation to communicate with

SPS about all prisoners
DH is that in writing or phone
GR - primarily by phone
DH - impact assessment of policy, and was completed in Nov 2023, is this a doc shared with you
GR - not this specific doc
DH - notwithstanding that, on page 188 it says

a heading of the impact assessment, we see that there's a section considering arrangements when TP is admitted to custody and those arrangements. We see that GA must conduct a risk assessment and keep a record
GR - yes
DH - this part seems to be about the prisoner themselves

it says someone's GI cannot be recorded on the form, admission to the prison system is the first step of someone's journey in the prison system and GI should inform that journey. You're nodding, you agree?
GR yes
DH - its doesn't seem to be seen as gender info on the PER is

complete on the form
GR <inaudible comment>
DH - just to understand you were not asked by CH to give your views before he made his decision
GR - that is correct
J - MM, any re-exam
MM - back to page 675, being asked qs on pieces of information, you said 'if I may.....

can you expand what you meant to say
GR - <audio failure>
MM - asked about opportunities to discuss policies, how many prisons are there in Scotland
GR - 13
MM - managed by SPS
GR - all but one managed by SPS
MM - not to diminish role that PCO plays - effectively moving people

about, thinking about changing, promoting change, regarding relationship with SPS, if a change is going to be suggested, where should that change come from
GR - SPS and the EM
MM - fairly seismic change in Scotland, FWS court case, do you know about that case

GR - I'm aware of that case,
MM - has the outcome resulted in any changes between GA and SPS,
GR - we haven't been approached by the SPS on that
J - have or haven't
GR - haven't
MM - more on PER form, no obligation to mark gender on PER

GR - understanding a prisoners gender is essential to handling the prisoner
MM - so GA will take a prisoner from the court to a prison, there is a necessity to know what gender they are
GR - GA wants to make sure that all prisoners are safe during their period in our care

MM - is there a rqmnt for GA to communicate with prisoners in their custody, verbally
GR - yes
MM - ticking the male/female box is a requirement, all that info has to be prepared by PCO
GR - correct
MM - necessary info?
GR - yes.
J - you're finished GR, you can take a seat or

leave, we have housekeeping to do.
J - do we have an agreed approach on subs
DH - I'm nearly completed, mine are a bit more than a skeleton, very much in your hands
J - are you content for me to read that and anything else you can say in response to MM, MM where are you?

MM - ready to share by 1:30 pm
J - I'm going to be here, if you need a wee bit longer let the clerk know
DH - 9000 words
J - just short of a dissertation, MM, not a competition
MM - shorter, maybe 7000 words
J - I'm imagining some of that is the law, but the finding of fact

and the application of the law is crucial I can skim any background or setting out.
MM - say by half past one
J - I was going to say back by 3 pm, I need to read your subs and may need to read some of the cases, you can come back to the clerk.

J - we can always sit past 4 pm if necessary. Another matter, making submissions available to the public, a hard copy in the room, I'm happy with a soft copy.
DH - I'm happy with that,
J - discussion about clerk might print out and make available, suggest that you leave a copy

with the clerk. MM you happy?
MM - yes
J - 1:30 pm to exchange, 3 pm to reconvene
DH - can we use this room to work?
J -we'll just ask the clerk, we'll see you at 3 pm.
Court rises.
End of morning session

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