Thread by @tribunaltweets

We expect the afternoon session of Day 5 in LS vs NHSE to begin at 2 pm. It may be a short session. Our coverage of earlier sessions and background on the case can be found on our Substack here:
open.substack.com/pub/tribunaltw… x.com/tribunaltweets…

Afternoon session is starting. J reminding attendees, no hot drinks allowed. Witness PM will resume.
J - SC you mentioned a floor plan?
SC - have one, sent to Cs team.
J - NC have you had a chance to speak to C's do you have further qs?
NC - I was perplexed because

I was nearer the end than I expected. I do have the floor plan.
J - Clerk, can you print off 4 copies? NC - would you like to look at it
NC - would like to take instruction quickly
J - apologies, everyone has to leave the room and the remote

<discussion of recalling previous witness who must leave today>
J - how long will you need NC
NC - no longer than 10 minutes
J - fine, bring everyone back at 14:20, can everyone in the audio room log out?
<<break - back in 10 minutes>>

We're back.
J - I understand we haven't received the document.
SC - clerk has given her personal email, will send to her
J - perhaps you can bring up your laptop
<NC brings laptop to show J & panel>
Inaudible discussion now as no one is near a microphone.
SC - now pointing out

access.
J - question - which of those labels are relevant, we don't need to recall Mr Goodfellow if we could just have confirmation
SC - GL17 is female
J - thank you Mr Goodfellow, you won't be recalled as a witness you are free to observe or to leave

J - we are continuing with evidence of PM
NC - a q about maternity leave, if C is on leave she's still an employee, may come in, can access the facility
PM - yes
NC - and if she returns to work next week, she will still be subject to the same issues and access

NC - an answer given to another trans employee is an example of a trans person is given a choice of which facilities to access
PM - this is an example of us attempting to accommodate and support an individual at work
NC - as with TiM, if the only facilities available to her

were the individual unisex and also the womens....contrast with C who can only use the individual disabled fac, and therefore may be required to wait
J - that would be correct
NC - referring to a letter that says SC decision is applicable immediately, and is clear and no need to

wait for EHRC guidance, she's right in that isn't she?
PM - the SC ruling is clear, I am still not secure in the court ruling could not result in a claim through the EA which is what we would be seeking to avoid.
NC - you say in statement that understanding of day to day impact

being missing, and difficulties in policing access to facilities and knowing who is trans and who isn't
PM - you mean para 26
NC - yes, thank you, you say you can't enforce a rule, but practical difficulties don't mean you can't have a rule
PM - agreed

NC - refers to speeding as a rule
PM - yes, but it's easy to measure speeding
NC - so if you make a rule that says use facilities of bio sex, most people would follow the rule
PM - but we might get a claim
NC - leave that aside, as a general statement

PM - yes, but there are practicalities
NC - and if someone breaks the rule, you could speak to him or her, or disciplinary process
PM - yes
NC - so if a TW can pass convincingly as a woman, they are unlikely to be caught
PM - Yes
NC - so if there is a rule, and someone breaks it

you won't always catch them but that doesn't mean you can't have a rule.
PM - I would agree with the end of that question
NC - you draw a parallel with 2 people wanting a prayer room, one of them must give way, it's a bad analogy because both of them have a right to the space

PM - yes, it's not a great example, it shows our attempts to balance
NC - the reason it's a bad example is because the workplace regs require SS toilets in the workplace and you've taken away SS toilets from all of your female employees to accommodate TiMs.
PM - I agree bad

example, not sure for same reasons.
NC - lets walk through one step at a time: workplace regs require SS toilets
PM - yes
NC - admitting men makes them not SS or women have reason to fear they are not SS
PM - yes
NC - therefore done to affirm handful of TiMs

PM - we did to try and accommodate a small number of employees,
NC - your defense of this claim is actually an exercise in blame shifting isn't it? You want to say it is the fault of the Tribunal,
PM - I disagree
NC - it's a cowardly way to proceed, there is something worse

about it that blaming the Tribunal, it's also shifting blame to the C, weeping through her evidence, describing her trauma and fear, it's saying 'look what she made us do'
PM - I completely reject that assertion, I have sympathy and respect for C,
NC - I have no more qs.

J - C - do you need a break?
NC/C - no
J - Ms Hodkiss was asked about ability to raise anonymous feedback, I think from memory, she talked about a system on the intranet for anonymous feedback, is it still there
PM - there is a mechanism on our intranet (portal) and that I'm

assuming can be anonymous. We also have 'freedom to speak up' and its outwith NHSE and its for the guardian to then advocate for the person and their issue.
J - as far as you're concerned, ability to give feedback on portal is still in place

PM - I couldn't say for certain,
J - are you aware of anything having changed
PM - no reason for anything to have changed
J - I don't have anything else but my colleagues may?
Ps - <indicates negative>
J - re-exam?
SC - no

J - so some housekeeping, it is Eid tomorrow, we will not be hearing submissions before 11 am.
NC - C will make her observations the following day, SC and I have already discussed timetabling. We will exchange written submissions at 12 and send to tribunal, then appear

for brief oral submissions at 2 pm.
SC - we can't be very long in oral submissions
J - I hope you will stick to that....
SC - yes
<J & Ps discussing>
J - we'd like to be finished by 4 pm, can you limit oral submissions to 45 minutes, that gives us a bit of flexibility

SC - we will send or provide hard copies to the Tribunal, someone will walk them around
J - that would be most helpful, we are very short staffed because of the holiday,
SC - will email and deliver hard copy. One thing - I'm proceeding on the basis you're dealing with

liability only.
J - yes, given the time for deliberations, I think we're likely to reserve judgments, would counsel be able to attend remotely?
SC/NC - (agreed)
J - discussing remote arrangements further,
SC - if you were minded to make any recommendations on policy changes

we'd probably need to provide evidence.
J - should we pencil in dates for a potential remedy hearing? Bring your diaries tomorrow, I'm not saying we've made a decision, just it's difficult to organise dates via email, we may need 2 days?

J - even if a reserved judgment, we may need those 2 days
SC - to confirm, you will contact us if you think you can give judgment Monday
J - anything else? No, then subs via email, hard copy delivered by email, names clerk for tomorrow, leave at security if not

J - thank you everyone for time and patience, we will adjourn until 2 pm tomorrow for submissions, can everyone remotely observe please log out.
Court adjourns.
End of afternoon session.

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