Subsist til Repose
$369bsv
https://t.co/OiaQanix9v
i do some reporting Welcome 🙏
Jun 7, 2024 • 163 tweets • 33 min read
07th of June 2024
I am in the Rolls Building and it is as busy as the first day of court.
The room is awash with smug and nervous chatter. you can definitely see who supports and who doesnt support craig.
We are 10 minutes away from the start of court and i see new faces and old faces in both solicitors groups.
My reporting will follow on from this tweet so for all the juciy court info check out my thread...
if you would like to support with a donation then feel free to at handcash $369bsv or address
1Gu4QXdm2jZ8VYc5FhsfofBh1TR9crGESD
We start in a couple of minutes....
ok we all rise and "judge" mellor enters. i do not bow.
Jun 5, 2024 • 112 tweets • 19 min read
OK GUYS!!!! On no sleep (again) and by the skin of my teeth i have made it on time to the bsv delisting claim.
Im sat in a more modern court room then the rolls building. lovely temperature not too hot and not too cold. There is one person i recognise here im pretty sure they are btc maxis and apart from that its all new faces and all new lawyers.
This will be the start of my thread so for all court reportings please see below.
Here is some links for the claim and the tribunal documents.
If you would like to donate to the reporting's then please feel free to handcash me at $369bsv or bsv address:
17JHjqff5d4ksESbakcAGxPmRWzCd7PUqn
Im sat behind aload of suits and the whole room is filled. although it is alot smaller then csw vs copa court room it still has a air of grandeur.
5 minutes left untillwe start..
if you could like and share this it would be a great help
hope you enjoy the reporting.
peacebsvclaims.com/claim-document… bsvclaims.com/tribunal-docum…
We all rise as the judges enters the room. There is 3 of them two males and female. the usher reads out the claims and the gives people the legal details about the live stream recording. the same rules as the csw vs copa case.
Mar 13, 2024 • 102 tweets • 26 min read
DAY 22....... 13/03/2024 COPA VS WRIGHT
Today we will see the last of Mr Hough closing arguments and will likely see mr gunning's closing as well. It will be the last of the copa testimony and then we get onto the real good part. The last two days of Shoosmiths testimony and then the court case is finished.
The fans have been turned on and the room is nice and full.
If you would like to send a donation please send too...
Handcash: $CSWCourtReporter
bsv address: 1FB11DAbMgmyvZj4umJCDXZ9KJ23tS71GS
Judge Mello greets us all good morning.
Mr Hough talks about other mentions of bitcoin from Dr Wrights blogs.
We see a post from 2011. saying "Bitcoin has value its not just a hobby. it sells for $5000 now. lets us see just how much they cry when its valued in 2020"
Mar 12, 2024 • 107 tweets • 22 min read
Day 21.....12th of March 2024
The first day of closing statements in the Copa Vs Dr Wright court case.
Wow I really pick the worst accommodation. I guess you get what you pay for right. Got kicked out of my first hostel for doing an interview with Gavin Mehl. Now this hostel wants to kick me out because apparently I was sleeping in a common area. Apparently having a hat over your face to block bright lights is sleeping.
Apparently answering immediately to staff members is me sleeping and again they are refusing to give me a refund so I can book another place.
Imagine telling the property your arriving at 6 to 7am and paying for early check-in and then not being able to check in till 4pm 🤣 if 4pm is early then what's late lol
CLINK261 HOSTEL LONDON
DO NOT STAY HERE
not worth the price saving with the attitude and lies of some of the staff. It's a real shame aswell because alot of the other staff are really polite and friendly and its super cheap but it only takes one bad apple to ruin the barrel.
Anyways I'm in London and about to make my way to the Rolls Building Court to report the last 4 days of closing testimony.
If I'm wrong I'll eat my words but I am confident Craig will win this case as long as Judge Mellor is competitant, honest and fair and thr court system stays legal and just.
As Lord Grabaner would say the evidence speaks for its self.
We should have 2 days of closing from both sides each and I honestly believe the case finishing on shoosmith closing will be the best scenario as it leaves craig closing fresher in the minds of the listeners.
I would love to see it happen but I really don't think we will see a signing or any moving of coins in the next 4 days.
I only see an ace up the sleeve being played if he loses but that is just my opinion.
I do think there will be more new information when we initially start the trial as it's been a week and imagine how many crazy people can email the court in that time and not too mention the information from Craigs accountant about verified digital cash holdings.
It is the last week of the case and the 5th week in London so i apologise but I'm going to shill the heck out of myself.
Regardless what the maxis say I am not paid by anyone affilated with bsv, nchain solely donations and they have been a MASSIVE part of making this journey happen.
If you would like to make a donation it is very much welcomed and appreciated. To all those that have donated, you are the reason I'm sat here doing this so thankyou for the love and support.
Hand cash handle is:
$CSWCourtReport
Hand cash bsv address:
16nwkxuHu5BFHVU4BqrUGb2yBFERqjCigu
PayPal qr code down below.
P.s my Dragon Army NFT that has been used for the whole case is now up for sale and open to the highest offer. So far I have had the highest offer of 1.5 bsv. Only 4 days left to DM your offer to buy a tiny spec of the history of this court case.
OK I will start my court reportings underneath this post in a thread.
So next time you hear from me will be when the court starts all likes and reposts are appreciated too.
Right I'm off to jump on a bike and cycle to court and then rebook some more accomodation. Lol
Speak to you all soon. Peace.
✌️❤️🩷🧡💛💚💙🩵💜🤎🖤🩶🤍
#BSV #btc #copa #London #COPAvCraig #court #reporting
Ok guys im sat in the court the court thread will be started here. Its a very busy day today in court. The court is really full. The Clerk goes to Get Judge Mellor and we will start soon
Mar 1, 2024 • 55 tweets • 16 min read
START OF DAY 20. 1st of MARCH 2024
We missed day 19 and and i had one of the nicest days so far got to see my grandfather who i havent seen for 20 years so that was really nice to reconnect and see old family members that contact
was lost so if all else this whole trip has been worth it for that.
We are currently in the court and waiting to begin. OPEC are testing the systems so the stream should be live any minute now.
If you would like to make a donation please send to my handcash $CSWCourtReporter
Mr Madden has been walking around like a caged animal... he doesnt look very confident.
we are a couple of minutes away from the start.
will be a very short day today.
Craig is on the stand and Judge Mello enters.
Mr Orr says he needs to be re sworn.
Copa have received wright 15.
they don't object to its submission for 3 matters.
Dr Wright will refer to the contents of his witness statements and he should be able to respond to the reports of Dr Maddens report.
Wright 15 should be the last report and there shouldnt be a wright 16 after mr maddens.
The is also a paragraph talking about the tulip trading and indeed has existed since 2008.
although it was registered in a different persons name
those are the 3 points copa wish to make.
Mr Hough hands the judge a document which talks about spf validation information. Mr Madden has done some research. the spf validation and configuration information has been modified to include that within the last week.
the 2nd document is a snap shot of dns records and that was included on the 24th of February 2024 according to copa.
The security trails page has not yet picked up the spf configuration information.
Feb 28, 2024 • 83 tweets • 23 min read
Start of day DAY 18.
Im sat in the court next to zem gao so can confirm he will be one of the expert crypto witnesses today.
We had a little handshake and he seems like a nice gentlemen and is given a quick brief of proceeding by Mr Orr
It seems as if it will be a interesting day today and i cant tell how the tables will turn.
We are 5minutes away from the start and there seems to be a buzz in the court.
Court proceeding will be posted underneath...
If you would like to donate please send any donations to my handcash: $CSWCourtReporter
Court is about to start..
Judge Mellor enters we all bow and Zem Gao confidently exclaims he will tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
His expert declaration is true and there is one paragraph that he would like to withdraw and delete.
Apart from that everything is present and correct and all this joint statements are true also.
Feb 27, 2024 • 25 tweets • 5 min read
START OF DAY 17
What a day yesterday! wow!
Today we have Dr Rosenthal being cross examined
And we may find out more about the email that btcer seems to think was brought to the courts attention under some legal duty of shoosmiths lmfao if lawyers had a legal duty to bring information to the court for negative purposes to their client then there would be no such thing as client laywer privilege. The email was brought in by ramona, instructed to be presented by craig and objected to by copa.
but yeah keep thinking its a positive for copa lol
I will start my thread from here.
if you would like to donate please do so at
handcash:
$CSWCourtReporter
The judge enters
The Clark was emailed by a journalist and the judge says the email is still being investigated.
copa says they want to add it to a fraud schedule as they believe craig faked the documents and until the investigation has happened we will not know.
they would like to recall craig for a cross examination again possibly at the end.
The second decision arrises out of not calling mr Placks and Mr Bryant and that mr madden agrees to the joint statements of both expert witnesses.
Feb 23, 2024 • 63 tweets • 15 min read
START OF DAY 15.
23RD FEBRUARY 2024
We start today at 10:00 am. I'm writing this now outside the court waiting for Dr. Wright to arrive. I'm stood next to 3 photographers all waiting for that shot of the man, the myth, the legend.
I hope I can get a picture and get into the court for the start.
I apologise for my troll this morning it had to be done lol
No more trolling from now on I promise.
I hope I can do what ever we see today justice.
If you would like to make a donation to support my court reportings, it is much appreciated.
Bsv address:
14MNrgsXEEgFiir1w3hwBSqvQVhcVwp7Kb
Who's ready for today because I feel like I have had 20 coffees this morning.
Court reportings will be posted under this post....
I enter the court and see a man by the name of Lamb is at the Shoosmith stand and is talking to the Judge.
He is talking about his project being whiter and white even whiter then the authoritys.
He talks about calling out authoritys and his white paper is still a draft and he is not supplying any evidense to the trial.
He says the non appearance of a competing Satoshi is a powerful evidence.
The judge says one of the things that has been happening is the clark has been receiving emails from people who have said they are or have evidence of who Satoshi Nakamoto.
He asks if Dr Wright can be asked if Paul Calder rook... is that mysterious figure that is Satoshi Nakamoto.
Feb 22, 2024 • 48 tweets • 15 min read
START OF DAY 14
22ND FEBURARY 2024
Well what a morning.... All my shouting and screaming and putting bad energy out in the world about being threatened has definitely come back to bite me in the arse.
Alarm didnt go off this morning. Battery didnt charge last night. 5 bikes were broken this morning and i had a 2 hour journey to court instead of the normal 10 minutes it takes.....
Moral of the story dont be a dickhead and rise above the bad energy and you wont get bad energy back.
Im in the court and we see Mike Hearn on the stand ready to give evidence.
The court seems in good spirits.
The one and only Lord G Is in today so lets see what he has to offer.
We also have two live video streams from america later.
Judge Mellor enters we all bow and we get the day started....
Mike Hearn is sworn in to tell the truth and the whole truth and his witness statement is confirmed as truthful.
Lord Grabaner stands and greets Mr Hearn a good morning.
Mr Hearn is a software developer
Feb 21, 2024 • 64 tweets • 17 min read
START OF DAY 13
21ST FEBURARY 2024
I am sat in the court and Shoosmith are looking ready and raring to go! There is already 4 or 5 of them in the court and not a single bird and bird member in the court yet.
Nice to see Shoosmith have finally taken the gloves off.
We see a gentlemen on the screen doing a test of the live witness link. I believe the first witness is Marti Malmi
We have 20 minutes to go until the court starts and we enter a new day of proceeding.
Sorry for my little outburst this morning. Keyboard warriors do not bother me in the slightest, verbal abuse does not bother me in the slightest BUT when someone who has attended the court feels the need to physically threaten me then i have a very BIG issue with that and i will not be my peaceful loving self.
Threats of violence will NEVER silence me.
Anyways moving on, are we all ready for a full day of cross examinations of the COPA witnesses.
The court feed will be placed below this....
Any donations are very much appreciated and im very grateful to all that have donated.
handcash: $CSWCourtReporter
Lookie lookie.... Adam Back is in the building.... maybe he is the live witness today... and marti malmi is the live video link. today looks like it could be a firey day
Feb 20, 2024 • 98 tweets • 22 min read
START OF DAY 12
20TH FEBURARY 2024.
I have decided not to do spaces at breaks and lunch times anymore.
Sorry guys, but I'm not giving 5 weeks of my life to be told I'm wrong and be gas lighted every time im asked for an opinion.
It's my opinion and if you don't like it get off your lazy arse, take 5 weeks off work and travel to London yourself.
I have read all the documents!
I have been in the court every day, and I have asked lawyers who are directly involved in the case EXACTLY what is happening.
I re-READ the documents again last night and I can confirm Craig 100% is the defendant in the COPA case and is the claimant on the other cases which are predicated on him winning or losing the copa case which he is the defendant on.
So if you know better then me or would like to show me the entire document I would be happy to read it otherwise I suggest you come to the court and ask the lawyers or the judge yourself because showing selected copa screenshots is NOT evidence for me when the documents I am reading DO NOT say what the screen shot being sent round is proposing.
Anyways enough bitching....
I hope everyone is doing well today. I'm getting sick again so that's fun. I never get sick and apparently I'm allergic to court which is great. Wooohooo
We have the rest of Steffan Matthews testimony today which should last up until lunch time and then after lunch I believe there will be another witness. I'm not sure who yet, but we will wait and see.
I just saw a man go into one of the consulting rooms and say he was one of the witnesses so my guess is he is one of the witnesses lol 😆 master of deductive investigations I know lol
I again am the first here. On time and ready for my "100% completely wrong" and "100% completely biased" court reporting. 🤣🤣🤣
I do not need anyone to big me up. I know many of you are enjoying it and I thankyou.
I just have no time or energy to argue with people in spaces about something I have quadrupled checked.
OK the court feed will be posted underneath this post.
Who is ready for day 12 of #copa
Vs #csw
I'm ready I hope you are.....
Peace.
https:/bit.ly/COPAWrightTrial
Here is a link to all of bird and bird updated files.
So feel free to read it for yourself....
As per usual every seat is filled with bird and bird lawyers and 10 minutes from the start and not a single Shoosmith in the court. The right hand side of the court is empty. oh wait horray. 5 people from shoosmith have turned up compared to the 16 bird and bird lawyers
Today Mr Stefan Matthews will be on till lunch and then there will be a live video witness and a in person witness
Feb 19, 2024 • 121 tweets • 20 min read
START OF DAY 11
19TH FEBURARY 2024
Good morning all. I hope you had a lovely weekend I know I did.
I am 90% healthy again but my throat is a little scratchy still hopefully that will clear soon.
My bus was an hour late as they had to pick up coach guests from a broken down coach so I was a little panicky that I wasn't going to make it all on time.
I didn't need to worry at all as I checked in, had some breakfast and was the first at court as per usual.
No one at the court today let's see if that changes later on.
This case is so interesting to me because its wild how conflicting of opinions can be... one side says copa doesn't have a chance in hell of winning and the other side says csw doesn't have a chance.
It's a good job the only man ti make a decision is the judge as public opinion is very split.
When ever I give an interview I can only offer what is in my brain and if that's pro bsv and csw then apologies that's what your going to have to deal with.
Today we have 3 witnesses so should be a fairly easy day today.
I'm probably becoming exhausting by now but I have to thankyou everyone who has shown their support and guidance.
Aswell as the largest thankyou from the deepest part of my heart for all the amazing donations. You guys are all wild with your support its insane.
Any one else who would like to show support or help buy a coffee for me all donations are accepted at handcase: $CSWCourtReporter
Of bsv address:
1NcHNBZqYy5GaQ4otCusYU6z469czqgqkx
Thankyou once again.
Also guys check out @lamintapp
There is over 100 pictures uploaded now. All are viewable for free once you have subscribed.
30minutes away from the start of the case.lamint.io/id/CSWCourtRep…
The fans turn off the room becomes silent as we wait for Judge Mellor. Only the tapping of keyboards and the aggressive clicks of the technicians finalizing the the live streams.
Feb 16, 2024 • 32 tweets • 13 min read
DAY 10 16TH FEBURARY 2024
I was outside waiting for a picture so i missed the court start.
As i enter we see Danielle Morgan on the screens and she goes threw the oat of telling the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
They confirm if the witness testimony is correct and true.
The say they have a good sibling relationship.
And now we see a blog post with the title is he satoshi or is he my brother?
We now see the full blog post.
Have you ever known a kid who says one day they will change the world.
He knew from being a child that he knew he would change the world and she often thought craig was in contact with aliens or time travellers becaus ehe knew so much
she says he had a strong interest in japanese culture and especially the fighting side with martial arts and weapons.
He would use super hero names.
craig would have full suits and do the full movements of samurai
Feb 15, 2024 • 97 tweets • 24 min read
Day 9 15th of February 2024
The start of day and sadly i did not get a picture this morning. We sit in the court and craig and his wife do not seem to be here. My guess is they are taking a well earned rest now that the cross examination is over.
I see four btc maxis in the corner and there is very few people in the court today.
making my way to the court i saw Judge Mellow in his normal clothes and greeted him good morning.
6 witnesses will not be cross examined by shoosmith. We hear a list of the names of the developers who will not be cross examined.
There evidence can not be disputed and dr wright made claims that were inconsistent with the witnesses testimony.
by not cross examining he cant revoke any evidence that comes out
copa do not want to call them to respond to dr wrights claims
One of the witnesses is the btc devs only witness
btc devs lawyer says it maybe interesting for the lord to hear a "real" bitcoin developer witness testimony.
Lord Grabaner says no good deed goes unpunished.
Bird and Bird provided an aggressive letter this morning
Dr pang is the first witness to be called to the stand and he is now on screen
Feb 14, 2024 • 101 tweets • 26 min read
Good morning everyone. We are sat in the court craig has arrived dressed in his usual dapper way. Today is the last day of cross examination makes me feel that copa will release all the dogs on craig today to make sure they can finish on a flurry.
Im very tired today got like 3 hours sleep last night so if i miss anything i apologise.
What things are we going to find out today?
Genesis block not having private keys was huge information for many and some are still in denial that its even true. good job the court is here to decide.
The fans have been turnt off the talking stop and we now sit in silence waiting for Justice Mellor to enter with his usual happy and smiley self.
i have put a small post on @tipstampers as the longer version sadly got deleted by error. I was to sleepy to write a new one so i will make sure tonights is much better
the judge enters and we start the case
Shoosmith start to talk with the judge about the redactions and shoosmith have redacted parts that were priveledged information and there was unintentional errors made in redactions. certain parts have been redacted and they shouldnt of been and some parts havent been redacted that should of been.
Shoosmith have also said they have sent a letter to bird and bird and they do not wish to go threw this whilst Dr Wright is in the witness box however the contents can not be read out in court.
The is a typo also in the information.
they have noted how they are to take instruction from dr wright after cross examination.
WHAT ARE THE INSTRUCTION?????
We will find out tomorrow.
Feb 13, 2024 • 129 tweets • 32 min read
Day 7 13th February 2024 #COPA VS #CSW
I have met some lovely people during this journey and the ones i have met today are no exception @gigablockbsv got some amazing photos this morning because my stupid ass had my memory card in my computer and not my camera. Typical. I also had the pleasure of meeting @PiadinaPot9537 i love that the network of # bsv all have the same amazing and wonderful intentions to heal the world.
We are sat in the court room and it feels amazing that i am currently surrounded by Bsvers and supporters of craig.
15 minutes to go before the start we are all ready. i wonder what we will find out today about the box of paperwork, the instructions given to Lord Grabaner or if there is a non cryptographic proof of the genesis block inceptions.
Who know but all i know is i am in the best place to find out and hopefully you are too.
The thread for today will start from this message.
If you enjoy the thread feel free to donate at
handcash: $CSWCourtReporter
or bsv address:
17MfHZKhYuWoLiewdex2DQLeT3jHnL4BVY
lets get ready too rumble
We all stand for Judge Mellor and bow he greets us with the usual welcoming good morning and starts with his first words for the day...
Feb 12, 2024 • 128 tweets • 22 min read
12th of February 2024
Welcome to Day 6 of the #COPA VS #CSW
A fresh week is about to start and who knows what it has in store for us all. Will there be any massive discoveries over the weekend? Who knows but we are in the perfectly place to find out.
We have moved to floor 3 and Court 26 and it definitely feels alot cooler in here which a relief. The usher comes out and explains the rules of the court again. The fans turn off. the chambers door is knocked. we all stand and get ready for judge Mellor's first words.....
Just one thing from the judge. 3 emails were recieved. one was from ager hannsson offering a witness statement, one was from steve shadders. and another from canada.
he explained it is adversarial system not an enquizzical system.
the copa lawyer sent email to shoosmith and the privileged issues are best to left until after the fact shoosmith are to deal with it. lord grabaner has been given instructions from dr wright on a specific issues that can only be discussed with dr wright by his laywer.
Ramona has also found a box of papers for shoosmiths to consider.
The judge say goodmorning
Feb 9, 2024 • 128 tweets • 26 min read
9th of Feburary 2024
5th day of Court is about to begin shortly.
I didnt managed to buy the donuts for the btc maxis because i lost my wallet and got a flat tire so hopefully thats all my bad luck done for the day.
I had a great chat with some of the btc maxis and its really nice to be able to have a open and honest discussion in a space not as toxic as twitter so fair play for the interesting debate.
The btc dev lawyer and copa lawyer and two shoosmith lawyers all enter the judges chamber to have a chat. To be a fly on the wall of the judges chamber would be perfect i did hear them all have a good chuckle so it seem like it was a nice chat.
copa lawyers are all huddled in a group the main lawyer doesnt not look happy and the other lawyer s have a "i cant believe it" smirk.
its really difficult to tell if this is a positive or negative thing but it definitely is a "thing"
lots of head shaking and shoulder shrugging
We are 5 minutes away from starting.
Are we all ready for day 5? i know i am....
The judge is a little delayed if you can not see the stream it will either start when the judge enters the chambers OR the person who was screen shotting the live stream may have ruined it for everyone else and it is no closed.
i hope it just because of the judges delay and not the latter the judge enters
Feb 8, 2024 • 157 tweets • 31 min read
8th Feburary 2024
Day 4 of the #Copa Vs #CSW trial
What will today bring?
Well it Brough me a signed white paper so I'm extremely happy. 🥰🥰😎
We are ten minutes away from the start and craig is wearing a black suit with a royal purple 💜 shirt and black waistcoat.
White shoes today and the standard satoshi red socks.
Let's get ready to rumble.
The judge walks in a we bow. The judge asks about the timetable. Copa lawyer says he would like to finish the cross examination by lunch time tuesday. now it will be the end of tuesday as extra material needed to be dealt with and Dr Wright is giving long answers so bird is going to try to keep it short.
Some has taken a screen shot and who ever has posted it is now in BIG TROUBLE.
DO NOT!!! I REPEAT DO NOT SCREEN GRAB OR RECORDS ANYTHING FROM THIS TRIAL OR ALL LIVE LINKS WILL BE ENDED!!! DO NOT TAKE A SCREEN GRAB OR RECORD IT
Feb 7, 2024 • 146 tweets • 29 min read
7th of February 2024
Day 3 of #CSW VS #COPA
I am sat in the court room with 10 minutes to go before Judge Mellor enters the court room.
Craig it in an all black suit and black shoes with bright red laces and the standard signature red socks. If someone doesn't start a Satoshi Shoes NFT Collection I'm going to be very disappointed. It sounds silly but from today I'm going to take pictures of his shoes because I'm sure he has a larger collection of shoes then bitcoin and he has over a million of them in the satoshi wallets lol
Today I'm feeling full of energy and good vibes.
Im sure today will be a difficult day of cross-examinations but so far Craig has been dodging Copa attacks like neo from matrix dodging bullets.
I don't mean that in that he is evading the questions I mean that in the way that every question Copa throw at him he has a precise and technical answer and he has even on a few occasions told the "expert witnesses" how to actually do there job properly.
it hasn't come across in a ego way more of a matter of fact type of way. the usher give the no phones and no tea or coffee warning. Judge mellor is about to step out of chambers and we will all stand and bow.
Whos ready for DAY 3. I cant wait....
sorry for shilling myself but if you would like to make a donation to the court reporting all donations are welcomed at
HANDCASH: $CSWCourtReporter
or BSV address: 1JtSXrCnthcH5vGqsfZnXeyV69mntwwpHG
The judge says that we have won the competition for the hottest court and say we will move to a court soon which is 4degrees colder.
the judge says good morning to craig and now the copa lawyer starts to ask about craigs expressed opinion on Dr platts qualifications and now they go threw his qualifactions
Feb 6, 2024 • 55 tweets • 10 min read
laptop is over heating. sorry for breaking the thread. going to re start the thread from this message.
craig is saying that 20 years of existence the annonmoly is finding a file that hasn't changed and he says its has Grammarly so therefore it must of been back dated. he says that is a certain time stamp and he says that time stamp is attached when a document is opened in the enterprise Grammarly its very different to the normal Grammarly. he said the experts never opened a document and opened Grammarly or they would of seen the key difference almost implying laziness from the experts