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Day 8

#AyodhyaHearing

Five-judge bench comprising CJI Ranjan Gogoi, Justices S A Bobde, D Y Chandrachud, Ashok Bhushan and Abdul Nazeer has assembled.

Senior advocate C S Vaidyanathan resumes his arguments for the deity (Ram Lalla).
CSV is reading report of Archaeological Survey of India (ASI).

CSV: Muslim parties had first said that there is nothing beneath the land but later changed their case to the effect that what has been found beneath was probably an islamic structure.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV: ASI has a reputation in this country and it is due to these considerations that yhe High Court accepted the report if the ASI.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV: The ultimate inference is that there existed a massive structure and if not bigger than the disputed structure not certainly smaller. The High Court found that articles found during excavation are not articles to be found in any Islamic structure.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV- Justice Agarwal after analysing archaeological evidence and the evidence from accounts of travellers and found that they have no motive to record false findings.....
...In these days pilgrimage is like a picnic, amarnath or even sabrimala, you take a flight in morning and come back. Back there were no bridges over rivers. Even a century ago, and people kept performing their pilgrimage. ....
...The extent to which people went for this pilgrimage should be taken into account and the Archaeological evidence as well as the evidence from Travelogues should be taken into account since they had no ax to grind....
....Ram Janmabhumi has been held to be sacred by the devotees and should be accorded that respect.

#AyodhyaHearing
J. DYC: Justice Sharma has mentioned that the temple was reconstructed in 12th century, what is the evidence?

CSV: There was a temple at this place and i didn't mention it earlier since there was dispute to this but there was a slab found during demolition.

#AyodhyaHearing
Reading report- This is an original translation of a sanskrit poem engraved on a rectangular stone slab. This is in 11th - 12th century sanskrit.

J.DYC: Mr. Vaidyanathan one clarification. Was this recovered by ASI?
CSV: No my lords ASI came in much later, a lot of articles were discovered at the time of demolition of the structure. Now a journalist has written about it but his credibility is attacked because the journalist is attached with an organisation associated with RSS.
CSV: This was the king who was ruling in Saketa Mandala and Ayodhya was the capital. There was a big temple dedicated to Lord Vishnu Hari with rows and rows of carved stone, that is what is mentioned here.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV: The defendants, Waqf Board and Muslim parties have objected to the recovery of the slab stating that it was not found in the mosque but having found after demolition is doubtful, they also submitted that the slab was in a museum nearby.
My submission is my lords that irrespective of recovery or if it was in a museum, this mentions that there was a temple of Vishnu Hari built in Ayodhya and that is good enough for me.
CSV: Noone is challenging the competence of Dr. KV Ramesh nor the translation but only the recovery

J. DYC: Is the authenticity of the slab challenged?

CSV: No my lords the authenticity was also not challenged.

J. Bhushan: Please show.

CSV: I will.

#ayodhyacase
CSV: This slab was fell from a specific point during demolition. It was witnessed by a journalits who was present at the time of demolition.

CJI: Show us the cross examination of Dr. Ramesh.

#ayodhya
CSV: (After reading the cross examination of Dr. K V Ramesh) Therefore my lords the evidence given by the witness during cross examination is credible and not disputed, what has been disputed is recovery.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV is now reading the evidence of the journalist who is said to have witnessed the falling of the slab.

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CSV: (reading the statement given during examination of the journalist) "On 6th December 1992 i saw that a part of western wall was broken and the gap was filled with a lot of stones of uneven shapes and size. When the stones started falling, along with it fell a big slab and ..
..but appeared as if something was inscribed on it. Many other journalists were present at the time but i cannot name them."

#AyodhyaHearing
J. Bobde: what is the size of the slab, and its weight?

CSV: Roughly 4ft by 2ft. Question in my submission is whether he was present there, whether he could have seen. Neither the examination of this witness nor that of KV Ramesh disputes what is written there.
J. Bobde: Was the slab produced before the High Court?

CSV: No only the estampage of the slab.

J..Bobde: So the slab is still available with the State Archaeological Survey?

CSV: This slab is an inscription of 12th century, there is no serious dispute in regard to that.
CSV: The ASI also says that there have been structures at this place from 12th century BCE and that this has been found in the same place. This substantiates the conclusion that there was a huge temple.
CSV: A temple was existing at that time and it is on top of that, either by demolition or upon the ruins, that the present disputed structure, demolished in 1992, was made.

#ayodhyahearing
After concluding with archaeological evidence, CSV has now proceeded with showing the bench the oral evidence.Statements of witnesses with regard to the disputed structure.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV: I respectfully submit that a witness who has been in ayodhya since a long time and is giving evidence at 90 years of age in 1999, his evidence has not been even shaken in cross examination, speaks volumes of the faith and belief of Hindus regarding the disputed structure.
90 year old was Paramhans Ramchandra Das.

Now another witness statement who was 85 at the time of making statement

#AyodhyaHearing
Bench rises for the lunch.

Hearing to resume at 2 pm.

#AyodhyaHearing
#Ayodhya

Post lunch session.

CSV: On the faith and belief i have a few more witnesses that have spoken from our side and 4-5 more witnesses from other side who support the case of other side who who have spoken in our favour.
CSV now reading statement of Ram Nath Mishra, witness in Suit No. 5 who was aged 91 at time of giving statement. The witness states that after his marriage all of the guests had darshan of ramjanmabhumi and performed parikrama of the place.
CSV: Ram Navmi is celebrated in ayodhya in particular. In karthik month panch-kosi and 14-kosi parikrama is performed. devotees take bath in saryu, make donations and thereafter go the see the temple of ramjanmabhumi and other temples after that.
CSV: Its a day of celebration everyday in ayodhya. During my lifetime, the witness states, he has visited Ramjanmabhumi and mentions he had entered through Hanumat dwar and there were black touchstone pillars. Outside was ram chabutra with idols of Ram.
CSV: Inside was also a big chappar that was called Bhandara. It was told by the elders that it was beneath the central dome of the structure that Ram had taken birth and it is due to that belief that i worshipped that place. ...
CSV: It is on the basis of this faith and belief that lakhs of worshippers come to the place and still do.
CSV: From 1930-1950 i used to have 108 parikrama of RJB on occasion of chaitra Ram Navmi.

#AyodhyaHearing
J. DYC: This says that the key off the garbagraha was with Nirmohi Akhara?

CSV: This must be the the Chabutra.

J. DYC: No Chabutra is a platform in outer courtyard. Garbagraha would be inside.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV: (Reading the statement again) It makes no difference so far as i am concerned. The place of faith is still there. Even if Nirmohi Akhara had the key, they cannot claim a title adverse to the deity itself whom they are supposed to worship.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV: My case cannot be affected which is on faith of the worshippers and if today Nirmohi Akhara is claiming title adverse to deities it cannot be maintainable.

Sushil Jain: I am not claiming that, i am claiming right to management.

CJI: We know what you are saying Mr Jain.
CSV now reading statement of OPW6 Hausila Prasad Tripathi. Witness states that he had gone to ayodhya in his youth and had visited RJB and Kanak Bhawan everyday. In 1936 he visited RJB on Ram navmi and states lakhs of people had come and thousands performed parikrama...
...and the witness along with family also performed parikrama.
CSV points to a part in statement where the witness states that it is his faith and belief that Ram was placed at the same place in Ayodhya and it was on the basis of this belief that people came to ayodhya, took bath in Saryu river.

#AyodhyaHearing
J. Bobde: Did you notice one thing? the witness states he is a complete atheist.

CSV: (Laughs) When he visited it was in younger age.

J. DYC: Access to Garbagriha is not mentioned

CSV: My lords usually in temples one cannot access the sanctum sanctorum anyway.

#ayodhyacase
J. Bhushan: Mr. Vaidyanathan you have to understand a difference between temples in south india and north india. In south worshippers are not allowed in sanctum sanctorum, but in north India they are allowed.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV: Iron railing did not prevent the worshippers from offering worship. Through the railing offerings were made. Submission is my lords that the place itself is divine, there was no requirement of an idol or anything but the place itself is divine.

#AyodhyaHearing
J. Bobde: What is the cross examination on the point where witnesses state that no muslim was going to say namaz.

CSV: There is not much.

J. Bobde: No, is there a Muslim witness that says that he did not say namaz.

CSV: I'll read that also my lords.....
J. Bobde: No first read cross examination of hindu witnesses on this point.
CSV now reading statement of PW. 1 in Suit No. 4. Mohd. Hashim .

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV reading the statement of Mohd. Hashim, Plaintiff No. 2 in Suit No. 4. CSV reads parts of statement where witness has stated that as Mecca is holy for muslims, Ayodhya is for hindus. CSV now showing photos of pillars that were shown to the witness.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV: This is a plaintiff in OS 4 that has stated this that Hindus performed parikrama of the place since hundreds of years.

Now CSV reading the statement of Haji Mehboob, another plaintiff in Suit No. 4

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV is now reading the statement of Mohd Yaseen, PW 4 to the effect that black pillars were accepted to be present in the structure.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV further reads part of cross examination that a mosque cannot be built by demolishing a temple and if a mosque has been constructed after demolition of temple, namaz is not valid.

J. Bobde: Is he shia or sunni?

CSV: He is a sunni. He is a witness in Suit 4.

#AyodhyaHearing
J.Bobde: Ok my brother (Bhushan J.) has told that Suit 4 was only by sunnis.

CSV: Yes my lords.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV now ponting to certain statements in oral evidence of PW- 7 Hasmatullah Ansari. While reading parts of various statements of Muslim witnesses CSV is pointing out that witnesses have accepted that ayodhya was holy due to birth of Ram and parikrama was being performed.
CSV now points out that there is no dispute as to indentity of place called Janma Bhumi. Reading portion of examination of witness Mohd.Kasim Ansari, he points out that it was stated by witness that"It is true that the place i call Babri Masjid is called JanmaBhumi by the Hindus"
CSV: I am done with the PWs. Now I'll read DWs. These are witnesses of Nirmohi Akhara.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV now reading now statement of Mahant Bhaskar Das. He was aged about 75 years in 2003 and is the sarpanch of the ramanandi sect of bairagis. CSV points the portion of statement where the witness has mentioned about a parikrama path.

#AyodhyaHearing
CSV: This witness affirms the fact about parikrama and also states that there were idols placed under central dome.

Now reading another statement of witness.
CSV: I have referred these witnesses to establish the faith and belief which is accepted by Mulslim witnesses. So there is no dispute as to what is regarded as Janmasthan. Pilgrims have been seen by witnesses.
CSV: Thousands of pilgrims were coming before and now lakhs come. Therefore i submit that reading all evidences, the ASI report, the accounts of travellers, the historians, the inscriptions and the oral evidence it is established that it was the same place that Hindus regarded ..
....asbirthplace of Ram where a masjid had come up bit even after that Hindu pilgrims continued worship.
CSV: Now my lords i have to give some case laws in regard to what courts have held and how they have dealt in regard to faith and belief.

Gogoi: We will come back. How long will you take?

CSV: Another hour.

Bench rises for the day.

#AyodhyaHearing
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