Thread by @An_Koer

@OliveyJacob Thanks, Jacob. From my German (outside, and not so much curriculum-focused) view, some skeptical remarks and possibly questions -- not so much against your stance, but rather as to the underlying concept of "knowledge rich" and "Future 3".
First of all to keep in with the .../2

@OliveyJacob 1/... Brecht poem as a starting point. You state that Brecht's reading worker knows a lot - and much broader than within a normal (German) curriculum. Interestingly, what he knows _about_ is (even though broad) still a very conventional curriculum. And I think this is what .../3

@OliveyJacob 2/... is central to it: It is not so much an image of that he does know so much but that he is uncomfortable with wht this knowledge is to tell him, how he feels appealed to by the knowledge presented to him not so much in school but inthe reading accessible in his culture: .../4

@OliveyJacob 3/... It's a "Great men make history" - or rather (to reflect the stress:) "History is being made by great men"-stance of history (Ritter von Skbik). This is challenged by him - but not by referring to some king of different knowledge, but by skeptical questions, in a way by.../5

@OliveyJacob 4/... references to "not-"yet-knowledge, to a certainty that there must be something else to know -- and this "something else" is narrative, a different construction oft the said incidents and conditions.
So in a way I would be a bit skecptical about your claim that one can .../6

@OliveyJacob 5/... only reflect about what one knows. Here it is a reflection coming from a perceived flaw in a narrative -- and this flaw is not so much about the stories he knows to be utterly "wrong" - but by not addressing his needs for orientation (Rüsen) and by his (correct) .../7

@OliveyJacob 6/... impression (or even conviction) that they do not only not address his interests but that he is being kind of (subtly) overwhelmed into going along with a certain perspective and indentity which his not his own.
Second: two things might follow from this:
These stories .../8

@OliveyJacob 7/... presented to him do indeed fulfill two criteria of "Future 3" - even though in fact I would classify them as "Future 1" in Youngs's typology: They (1) do (or at least might) not just keep him within his boudaries of everyday orientation but lead him to transgress his .../9

@OliveyJacob 8/... immediate social milieu into something broader, and (2) they in some way represent the "best form of knowledge available" at their time -at least that is what was considered as such: history as representing fundamental insights into how states, power, responsibility, .../10

@OliveyJacob 9/... work, what challenged "history" poses to men and how they responded to it.
Of course we do agree that this is a very narrow sense of what is to be learned from and in history and the worker's question already reflect it.But, then, the qualification of "the best .../11

@OliveyJacob 10/... knowledge available in a field" as the main criterion for "Future 3"-knowledge is shallow as long as it does not reflect the social context of such knowledge.

(BTW: Brecht's worker himself is not a real worker. In how far can we rely on how he is depicted as in .../12

@OliveyJacob 11/... any way representing or pointing at concrete non-bourgeois interests in and questions about history. He is a metaphor, constructed by Brecht as an intellectual. So what 'he' stands for also is a kind of ascribed interest and perspective. This in what should be the .../13

@OliveyJacob 12/... questions being asked if we not only tolerate but recognize perspectival interests. It is 'objective interest', niot subjective. That doesn't impair the value of Brecht's poen, but it is a substitute for 'real' workers' immediate interests - which often my be much .../14

@OliveyJacob 13/... more profane).

OK, what follows:
a) I agree with Young's focus on overcoming an orientation of "education" and knowledge to the immediate milieu and immediate applicability in it, only and with the task that "Bildung" must address not only practical aspects, .../15

@OliveyJacob 14/... but also open prspectives for future development beyond the immediate milieu and especially a development of independence and humanity.
I doubt, however, that this can be achieved by some kind of overarching concept of "best knowledge available" in any kind of .../16

@OliveyJacob 15/... pre-conceived form even of the best community within a discipline. Both disciplinary and substantive knowledge must be conceived of as being integrally plural and interrelated. They must both inter-link the different students' perspectives and their perspectives with.../17

@OliveyJacob 16/... broader societal perspectives. "Future 3" knowledge, then is relational. It is neither only "know what" (substantive) and "know how and why" (disciplinary), but also about perceiving different perspectival forms. In the end, both substantive and disciplinary .../18

@OliveyJacob 17/... knowledge in history must be conceived of (not only by teachers but also by students) as never finished and set, but con-constructed and to be constantly revised and negotiated. And only by doing so can the different perspectives which may again spark skepticism .../19

@OliveyJacob 18/... about the relevance and construction be integrated fruitfully (OK, maybe not "only" by doing so).

What then, is the central notion of "Future 3". I wonder whether much of it correlates with a concept for deciding about how to make a "content" or "topic" a "theme" .../20

@OliveyJacob 19/... for learning, developed from the 1950s on by Wolfgang Klafki - his "didactical analysis". In 5 questions to be applied by teachers (and I would add: together with students), he ventures to recognize and define the "Bildungsgehalt", some kind of "educative content" .../21

@OliveyJacob 20/... of a given content or topic (I would not think that this content already in IN the 'content', but can be developed related to it. I also don't like the concept of 'content', BTW).
These 5 questions are (roughly):
1. What general [sc.: insight, skill, disposition ...].../22

@OliveyJacob 21/... can be addressed (made visible, discussible, reflectable) via the given content. (and one has to add: vice versa: if I don't already have the topic but rather some aim: what topic makes it addressable)? -- So the idea is that we don't teach "a content" but some .../23

@OliveyJacob 22/... more general, applibale and possibly 'transferable" aspect by doing so.
This alone would also apply to the high-brow insights encoded in the concentional "Future 1"-konwledge. So questions 2 asks for:
2. What role does the topic (and the general insight ...) .../24

@OliveyJacob 23/... expectably in THESE student's future? There is a spark of functional reasoning in it - but is os not limited to the givel milieu, but can venture across.
3. What role does the topic already play in these students' present? The already given presence there is not .../25

@OliveyJacob 24/... defining the aim of learning, but the starting point. It is the (productive) tension between the present meaning, the future one and the general insights, which venture across the given milieu of acting.
I omit questions 4 and 5 here, because they focus structure .../26

@OliveyJacob 25/... and possible forms of making it concrete, but I hope the gist is clear: It is not "the best" available knowledge given by others, but the knowledge which can be co-constrcued in the field between individual perspective, and social position on the one hand and .../27

@OliveyJacob 26/... (diverse) soecietal meaning on the other. The inter-and co-construction of non-uniform but rather inter-compatible knowledge, then, needs to be informed by the disciplinary concepts, standards, criteria, which the students must also acquire - but again not as merely .../28

@OliveyJacob 27/... to be accepted, but by (at least partly) becoming part of a society which also discusses and developes the disciplinary concepts, etc.

To sum up: Yes, I do believe that "knowledge" has much potential with social-critical stances to learning and it is about .../29

@OliveyJacob 28/... enabling and empowering students to partake (not omly participate) in the society as a whole, not only in the place they are already in. But I doubt that a reference to "best knowledge" can help.
But of course we do only get to follow part of the Future3-discussion..../30

@OliveyJacob 29/... so I may well be missing some distinctions altogether.

@OliveyJacob UHH again the Typo: Not Skbik, but "Srbik", of course...