We're underway! I'm excited. Can't wait to count how many times we hear the public interest immunity claim invoked.
DSS secretary Kathryn Campbell is making an opening statement. She notes the program changed another of time "in response to feedback".
Kathryn Campbell notes the PM apologised last month, and says "the department and the agency also apologise for any hurt or harm." Says they are focused on learning lessons from what happened.
Campbell says "income averaging has been used for many years as a last resort" where people did not respond or the information was not available."
Campbell says the program rolled out in 2015 – ie #robodebt – was based on the belief income averaging was legal. "We now know that that was a flawed assumption."
Campbell says the ongoing refund process has been designed to be as transparent as possible.
Campbell reiterates the apology. Says they will answer questions as best they can (given the court action).
Services Australia's Michelle Lees says 145,000 people have been refunded so far through the #robodebt refunds program. That's worth $224 million.
Annette Musolino of Services Australia takes on notice how many people have been paid in instalments. (These are paid on consecutive days.)
.@SenatorSiewert notes debts have been identified before 2015 that used income averaging. Why aren't you addressing those? Campbell says "the debts before 2015 rely on a number of different IT systems [paper documents]."
Campbell says is now a portal created for these people to ask for a review. Musolino says people can ask for a debt statement for dates back to 1998. EVERYONE should do this. theguardian.com/australia-news…
Deb O'Neill kicks off by saying it's "not satisfactory" that the department only answered a quarter of the committee's questions on notice.
O'Neill is asking about the DHS Risk Management document into income compliance. It's this FOI @jpwarren got after a four year battle theguardian.com/australia-news…
Already very testy between Labor's Deb O'Neill and Kathryn Campbell. O'Neill is seeking to draw a link between Campbell. "Ultimately it's your responsibility."
"Of course it is Senator."
"Of course it is Senator."
Campbell says the issues raised by the risk assessment documents don't relate to ATO averaging, they're about customer engagement.
"Senator you haven't let me answer. You're making an assessment that this wasn't addressed." Campbell says "the difficulty that has occurred is averaging itself has been found to be legally sufficient."
Campbell takes on notice what happened with this risk. Campbell is arguing that the automation wasn't an issue. "I'm disappointed you can't remember this document," O'Neill says.
Campbell says she's never seen the risk management document before. O'Neill: "Perhaps that's the problem, the warnings were there and no one was watching."
Now time for government dixers. How did the government improve the system over time?
Where does the income compliance go from here? "Our primary focus from here will be on prevention," says Annette Musolino, she notes the single touch pay roll initiative.
No public interest immunity claims yet! Stay tuned.
Musolino says they have been engaging with various community and social service groups since 2017.
Musolino says they engaged with the Commonwealth Ombudsman on the refunds process, including letters.
Rex Patrick is here. What is the difference between "zeroing" and "waived". Debts are being zeroed, not waived, says Campbell, and Musolino says "it's not ... saying the debt exist but we're waiving."
DSS is the respondent in the Gordon Legal class action, not Services Aus, Campbell says.
First reference to the public interest immunity claim from Campbell. Patrick tells her that the pleadings are public, so don't even think about it. Patrick is trying to ask if compensation is in the pleadings. Musolino finally says yes.
What harm would result in answering how many times legal advice was sought? Patrick says he asked the Department this question on notice, and DSS invoked PII. Patrick can't see how this would prejudice the proceedings.
Stoker is jumping in to shut it down with reference to the public interest immunity claim.
We've descending into arguing between O'Neill and Stoker.
Siewert says the committee has just received a new letter from Stuart Robert over PII. O'Neill and Siewert both unhappy that the letter has come through now.
Patrick asks again. What is the "harm" of answering whether legal advice was sought and the cost? Stoker is intervening again.
O'Neill says the department is engaged in a deliberate delay of the process. The Liberal senators want a private meeting.
O'Neill wants the hearing extended into the night. She accuses Stuart Robert, the department and Kathryn Campbell of deliberately trying to delay the hearing.
(All for an extension of the hearing myself, but that's just me!)
Campbell reads from the letter that Stuart Robert has just emailed to the committee. Basically the letter argues that if Gordon Legal was made aware of legal advice, it could prejudice the Commonwealth's case in relation to negligence and unjust enrichment.
Campbell is now saying she can't answers any more questions.
How does the cost of the legal advice prejudice the Commonwealth's case? Patrick wants a special meeting to force an answer. They suspend for the meeting.
It is worth noting that the government has also made public interest immunity and legal professional privilege claims over several documents in the Gordon Legal class action. (Likely many of them are the same.)
Still in the private meeting. Here's hoping they extend the hearing.
We don't accept the PII from the minister," says Rachel Siewert. Siewert says there will now be a second hearing next week.
Basically, the questions will keep coming, but so will the non-answer citing public interest immunity claim.
Patrick: Did you seek legal advice? Campbell: "I'm going to have to take that notice." She says she is unable to answer as she wasn't prepared to asnwer that!
Campbell is claiming that there is nothing new in the robodebt program because the unlawful part is the "income averaging" which was a long standing practice of the dept.
Siewert wants to know how many debts were fully averaged and how many were partially. They're finding the info now.
O'Neill: Do you know the dates legal advice were taken?
Campbell: Takes it on notice.
Campbell: Takes it on notice.
Campbell takes on notice the cost of legal advice, and a whole bunch of other questions about it.
Stoker complaining that O'Neill is trying to run the class action. "Who's funding it? ... Is it the unions?"
On the risk management plan, Campbell says: "This is a snapshot in time." She says she doesn't have info with her on whether steps were taken to mitigate risks. Has taken it on notice.
Campbell says when she was the secretary of DHS, she believed the robodebt program was legally sufficient.
O'Neill asks Campbell if she personally apologises: "Of course I do. Of course we we would have not wanted to do this."
It's a pretty amazing argument from Kathryn Campbell (and the government). Summarised it is: the federal government has issued illegal debts since the 1990s or even the 1980s. But we will only find and pay back debts from after 2015.
Dixers from Amanda Stoker, including is it true debts calculated through income averaging could lower than debts based on the actual evidence?
Nice to see Amanda Stoker reads the Guardian. Refers to this story to note one the class action applicants had a bigger debt after they provided evidence, than compared to income averaging theguardian.com/australia-news…
A good question from Amanda Stoker: What's the future of the income compliance program?
Services Australia's Annette Musolino, however, doesn't really answer.
Services Australia's Annette Musolino, however, doesn't really answer.
Deb O'Neill is reading a heartbreaking letter from a DHS staff member who warned about the scheme. Campbell: "I too apologise to staff. But I would note that this had been going for sometime."
It is disingenuous to say it has been going on for sometime. Income averaging was an absolute last resort, it became the first option from 2015.
Hard to see how there can't be a broader inquiry into this whole thing when the government is now openly saying we've been sending people illegal debts since the 1980s.
Deb O'Neill asks is robodebt "dead"?
"I'm sorry, chair, I don't know what robodebt is?"
"I'm sorry, chair, I don't know what robodebt is?"
In a fiery exchange with Labor's Deb O'Neill, Kathryn Campbell says she does not accept that people committed suicide due to the robodebt program.
Full quote from Kathryn Campbell: "No, I do not accept that people have died over robodebt."
Statement from Bill Shorten 
