Thread by @DianaKristinne

OK, I'm going to try to do this now. Fair warning: it's gonna be *very* long, because it's like a solid 90 minutes of conversation.

https://twitter.com/TeamBarcaPod/status/1314638159167262722

Q: This interview format is called Tiki-Taka. Some people don't like that term, referring to possession play, combination play. How do you feel about it?
JM: I don't relate positional and combination play to tiki-taka. Of course I like it, it's what I most enjoyed in my career.

Q: Some people use it as a pejorative term to describe this style.
JM: Yes, it's sometimes used as a disrespectful way of talking about this style, but I think that this style has made football evolve, it's made it so that today we see a lot of "brave" teams,

protagonists that try to do things differently and above all it's a style that people fell in love with, because people fall in love with beauty, not results. And if there's something that the Spanish NT and Barcelona achieved during those years it was that.

Making people fall in love with that style, that model. Winning, which is what we all play for, using that model. And the other good thing that came out of it was that because it was a beautiful thing that people enjoyed a lot of coaches started copying it and we're seeing it

repeated in plenty of different places. Like in Germany for example. 10-15 years ago it would have been unimaginable to think that German teams would change their style for what we see today. Today you see Bayern Munich, or RB Leipzig doing things that we used to do.

Q: When you started playing, were you playing more defensive roles or...?
JM: No, I was a forward. Here in Argentina until like 9-10 years old we played on half pitches with 7 in the team and I was a forward there.

In time I realized that I had no chance to make it in that position and I went into midfield and I ended up being a DM.

Q: You were born in 1984, 2 years before ARG won the WC, 6 years before they lost the Italia '90 final. Was Maradona your first idol?
JM: Of course, we all grew up with the image of Maradona marked on us. I remember the '90 tournament well, the games were after school.

I remember going out to celebrate wins in the city center and I still remember the final well, even though it was so long ago. And of course Diego was an idol for everything he did with the NT, for all he accomplished. Then as you grow up and start understanding the game more and

you start seeing yourself as a future player you notice players in your position, players you could copy. And for me, despite Argentina having great central midfielders, like Redondo for example, who was a different style than mine, like Almeida or Simeone,

I was always struck by Makelele. He was a player that I always tried to follow, both at Madrid and then at Chelsea. And then I was fortunate enough to play against him a lot so I can say that in terms of my position he was my idol, the one I always tried to watch.

He was a player that I could copy things from because of our common traits. I couldn't copy things that Redondo did, honestly. But I could with Makelele. So he was a mirror to see myself in.

Q: You had chances to come to Europe earlier than you did, didn't you?
JM: Yes, I had an offer from Ajax, after an U17 Sudamericano that we played in Peru. It was my first year at River, I had gotten there in 2000 and this was in February 2001. But my plans then were different.

I was very young and had a lot to learn and my biggest goal was to make it to River's first team. This was maybe the first important moment in my career, the first big decision that I had to make.

Q: What does August 3rd 2003 mean to you?
JM: It was my debut for River. We won 2-1. It was the return Europe of Marcelo Salas and Marcelo Gallardo. For me it was very special because I got to make my debut after working so hard for it, even though I only played 5-10 minutes.

But every debut is like taking a weight off and saying "I did it" and then you start a new phase. This was what I had most dreamed of. Then you turn the page and start on the next one.

Q: What's left of that 19 year old Mascherano now?
JM: I don't even recognize myself in the games I watch from during my Liverpool days now. Because playing for Barça made me understand football and see it a whole different way.

Of course I remember a young kid who had a lot of character and drive and who did his job as a DM well, but I had no further understanding of the game beyond doing stuff mostly by instinct. But I always say that football changes in 2008. Before that was completely different.

Q: And who changed it?
JM: For me it's obvious that Pep Guardiola made that change, like Cruyff did years before him with the Dream Team. Before 2008 I never saw teams pressing that high, having such a high line, setting themselves up to play from the back like that.

Sure, you set yourself up to play from the back, but if the opponent pressed you a bit you'd just play it long and move on. That's Pep's contribution to modern football.

Today it seems natural for a team to constantly try to overcome that press, to play from the back, to build towards the final third, to talk about numerical superiority in areas of the pitch and all sorts of stuff that we didn't use to talk about before that.

Teams used to play in a somewhat generic way. Sure, everyone has some particularity, but there were no big differences. And today that's completely different.

Q: So how did you end up at Barça?
JM: It was pretty weird, like most things in my career. In 2009 Barça talk to my agent about signing me. He had a few meetings with them, but Liverpool wasn't at all interested in selling me because they had already sold Xabi Alonso.

And Rafa Benitez didn't want to lose both of us in one summer, so those meetings didn't go anywhere. After that I had no more expectations of that move happening, because it's difficult to think that a big team like that would come around for you a second time if you're not a

superstar. They go and find someone else to cover that position. So in the summer of 2010 unfortunately we hadn't qualified for the CL, I go to the WC and Rafa gets fired. He was the one that had brought me there and trusted me and basically revived me from a sporting POV.

And he signs for Inter and calls me to tell me that he wants me to join him at Inter. I had been in England for 4 years now and started feeling that I should make a change, to try to play for a team that could win trophies, which was difficult at Liverpool at that time.

We competed with a Manchester United at their best, City was starting to grow, you had Chelsea, Arsenal... And it was difficult for Liverpool to make that leap. So during the WC I kept talking to Inter and then I got back for preseason with Liverpool.

I had already spoken to them about wanting to leave, if the offer was good enough for the club too. So basically the whole transfer window was winding down and I had just talked to Inter. There were 15 days left and the clubs hadn't reached a deal.

And with 10 days left Barça show up. I think their interest in me grows especially after the first game of the Spanish Supercup that the team had lost to Sevilla, I think 3-1. After that game the negotiations went very fast and I end up signing in the final days of the market.

But you can say it was unexpected, because during that whole summer I had only talked to Inter. But I thank God that it happened like this and that Inter didn't sign me, because otherwise I would have lost everything I lived in Barcelona.

Q: How was your first meeting with Pep?
JM: I first talked to him by phone when I was close to signing. And he had some valid concerns. I was the captain of the Argentina NT and an undisputed starter for Liverpool.

How was that player going to move to Barcelona to obviously be a sub because in my position there was the best player that Barça could have in that role, which is Sergio?

So he was worried about me being competitive and causing problems. But I wanted to make him understand that I wasn't like that. I was going to fight for my place with my weapons, but I would never cause a problem for the team, all the contrary.

What I was most excited about was going to a team that was the best in the world, different to all the rest, a team in which I could learn and play with great players and have the possibility of winning stuff, because I didn't want my career in Europe to pass me without winning.

The first face to face meeting we had was in his office before my presentation, he welcomed me with classical music. And the first thing he told me was "You know you've come here to not play, right? You're going to play the minutes that I need to rest Sergio."

And I told him that I had no problem with that and that I would look for a way to make him play me as much as possible, but that I wasn't going to cause any problems. That was our first talk and it was followed by 2 years of a lot of conversations.

He knew he would one day coach in the PL so we talked a lot about that and how Barça's model would do in the PL. Which was unimaginable because of how PL teams used to play then. And look what he's done. You see positional play at City, Liverpool, now at Arsenal with Arteta…

He also asked me a lot about Marcelo Bielsa, his methodology, his way of understanding football... So these were 2 years in which we had a lot of conversations.

Q: How did he talk you into changing your position from DM to CB?
JM: I signed for Barça being a good DM, but that was a level that I had achieved in a completely different style than what Barça needed in that position. And it's not easy to change your style as a player.

You can't ask a player to do things he isn't able to do. So the first months were difficult for me. Getting used to positional play, to having possession, to getting involved in the construction... In all the years I had played that wasn't what I did, I was separate from that.

My job was mainly about what I did when the other team had the ball, not when my team had it. So Pep had to tell me that in each training. "Here, everyone gets involved in the construction of the play. The GK, the CBs are vital for that so that the ball gets to better positions

to players with more quality with an advantage so that we can attack better" and all the stuff we know about Barça. I was playing some games, but I wasn't playing well, my first games at Barça weren't good. We lost my first game even. Against Hercules.

So imagine what was going through my mind then: I come to the best team in the world and the first thing that happens is the team loses. But with time I adjusted and then the adaptation to playing CB was more or less natural.

We had problems with the CBs that season. Puyi got injured, Abi got sick... There was Gerard and Gabi Milito who had also been injured, so Pep didn't have a lot of options. In the return leg against Arsenal Busi played CB and I played DM because Abi was suspended.

So we play that way against Arsenal, we win and then we find out about Abi's illness. We play that way against Shakhtar at the Camp Nou, we win 5-1 and I think that's when Pep saw something that is logical. I didn't talk to him about this specifically, but I assume that the idea

was to not move the best DM he had from his position and have to make 2 changes when he could just make one change and play me as CB and keep Busi at DM. My first minutes as a CB were the final minutes against Almeria at the Camp Nou.

I think Pep did this because he knew he'd play me as a CB in the return leg against Shakthar. I didn't ask him, but knowing how he plans things I assume that this was his test for me. And then we went to Donetsk and

I found out I'll be playing CB in the dressing room when he told us what the team was. So there wasn't any previous training or anything before that game. After that I did train as a CB, learning the concepts that come with that position and trying to lose some of the vices that

one has a DM, because there are some things that you obviously can't do anymore as a CB.

(We're now 37 minutes into a 90 minute interview. I'm taking a break for dinner and will continue this later. 😄)

Q: We've touched on this before, but what makes Pep different than other coaches?
JM: I don't think there's any coach that understands positional play better than Pep. I think that's something that he knows perfectly and can transmit it and explain it. And he was the "father" of

this evolution of the game that we've talked about before. Of course I can only talk about what he was as my coach, but that was 8 years ago and he's always kept evolving his teams. His Bayern wasn't identical to his Barça. He adapted to the characteristics of his players.

And he does the same now too. But the model, the style, his way of playing is something that doesn't change. You sit down to watch a Pep team and you know what you're going to see. Menotti told me that Pep went to see him once before he started at Bayern.

And he had his doubts about taking over a team that had such a set style, about being able to change that team to his way. And Menotti told him that his biggest advantage is that when Guardiola walks into a dressing room the players know what they're going to play.

And that's a big part of the battle already won. Because if a club signs Guardiola, or in this day we could also say Klopp because he also has his own style, they already know how they're going to play. So the players are predisposed to having to play that way.

It's not like Guardiola will adapt to the history of that club. No, he will change it and will take it to another level with his style, his ideas and his model of play. And that's the biggest influence a coach can have.

You hear people talking about Bielsa now, he's been coaching for 30 years and it's the same thing, you recognize his teams within 5-10 minutes of watching them.

And that's the greatness of these coaches. Their influence on their teams. Their ability to implement radical changes in whatever country, in whatever club to make it their own.

Q: I wanted to ask you about the differences between Luis Enrique and Pep, because obviously every subsequent coach at Barça gets compared to Pep.
JM: They have a lot of things in common. For me Luis is at the same level as Pep. He's a coach with clear ideas, with a clear model,

a very Barça idea, but with the difference that Luis took over in a moment when we needed to change what we had been doing a bit. Because it wasn't enough anymore.

Constantly playing in the opposition half, generating numerical superiority, pressing very high didn't come that easy for us anymore. We weren't the same team that we had been a few years back when we instantly got the ball back after losing it and had tons of chances.

So that's when Luis came in and did his own revolution of sorts. He improved us a lot and added facets to our play that made us indecipherable to opponents. If we had to defend in our own half we were fine with that.

If we had to spend 5 minutes in a lower block closer to our goal we could do that. If we had the option of a counter we did that. And if we had to be direct we were. The fact that during a game we were able to play in more than one way made the opponents uncertain of what to do.

Obviously our main idea was still to press high and stay in the opposition's half. But we sometimes also took a step back and invited teams to take more risks against us, because we knew we would catch them out with Neymar, Messi and Suarez who could sort it out.

And I always say the same thing: of course coaches influence teams, for good and bad. But football belongs to the players. And it will always be that way.

Q: Do you think that in order to play like Guardiola's Barça you need the right players? Like Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets at their best. Or can you try it with different players?
JM: You can always try to apply the same idea.

Otherwise football would have to end. Because Xavi is retired now, Andrés is in Japan... Of course they're unique players. But what's more unique about that team is that it had 5-6-7 players who were all at the peak of their powers at the same time playing for a coach who had the

best idea to get the most out of those players, in a club that had the culture needed for that idea to thrive. So no, you can't repeat *that*. Because you needed everything to happen in the same place at once.

But there are other great players and you can still implement the same ideas. Like, you watch Leipzig and they play positional football and they don't have world renowned players, but they're very good players and I enjoy watching them.

Of course they don't have Messi to score 50 goals/season, because there's only one of him. And you watch Atalanta, who have a different style, but still enjoyable.

Q: So what kind of coach will Javier Mascherano be? Because I imagine you will coach.
JM: Yes, I'd like to. But we'll see if I have the ability to do it, to transmit my ideas. And the idea, the style, is formed from all the experiences I've had during my playing days.

From all the coaches you've had, you take what you liked and you make a sort of salad of it and make something that's your own. Because what you can't do is just copy-paste the ideas of another coach. You have to be convinced of what you're doing in order to convince others.

And a coach friend of mine told me that you have to coach how you feel in order to be able to transmit that. But you also have to teach something that you know how to play. So I would like my teams to be the protagonists of the game, but above all, for my players to enjoy playing

So I can't say that I'll play like Pep's Barça because we were just saying that you can't repeat that, but it's clear that I've had great coaches, like Pep and Rafa and Lucho and Bielsa and I'm going to take things from all of them.

Q: You said that there's nothing better than being a football player, so I imagine that saying goodbye is going to be difficult.
JM: Yes, because this is what we've done our whole life and it's something you can't ever get back.

Of course, you can plan your future and maybe be a coach, but it's not the same. Firstly because it's walking into the unknown. I don't know how coaching will be, how I'll experience it. I can make assumptions, because I talk to coaches, but everyone experiences it differently.

And as everyone says, there's nothing like being a player. I think that football belongs to the players, we have the ball. Of course coaches influence things and give us all the tools they can, but we execute things and make decisions.

Q: So if being a football player is the best thing in the world would you want that for your kids?
JM: The girls didn't take to football, they like hockey and horses more, but my son is 3 and a half and he's starting to get into it. He goes to some trainings with kids his age...

Above all I want them to be happy and have the freedom to decide what they want to do. Which is the same freedom I had. I'll support them in whatever they want to do.

Q: What was the advice that most helped you in your career?
JM: Like I said, I had many great coaches. As a player I was always one to take on the burden of mistakes, both my own and those of others and it sometimes reached almost pathological dimensions.

I was always looking for the mistake, for what when wrong and sometimes it's just because of the quality of the opponent. And Lucho once told me something that is useful in football and in life: Strop trying to control the incontrollable. Focus on what you can control.

He used to tell us that a lot in regards to referees too: "the refs will make mistakes, like we all do, we can't control that, but we can control what we do." The same thing can be applied to results too. You can't decide what the result is going to be.

The result is the outcome of doing things a certain way, good or bad. We all go out to the pitch to win, but we don't get to pick the result before the game. What you can do is do things a certain way in order to get to the result you want.

Q: And do you give advices to younger players?
JM: More than giving advices I like talking to them. If they ask me about something I'll give my opinion, especially based on my experience, but I like getting to know them, their lives, how they think.

Players who are 18-19 now live in a different world than I did at that age. They have different tools and live in a different way. So to keep up with the times and be able to understand them you have to get to know how they think.

As humans we have a tendency to prejudge others when it would probably be better to listen and try to understand why they do things in a certain way or think a certain way. It's obvious that my children won't grow up the way I did.

I will try to instill into them the same values I learned while growing up, but I can raise them like I was raised, because it's a different world now. And I have to adapt to that.

Q: So when you see kids like Ansu Fati, Camavinga, Gio Reyna already starting for elite clubs….
JM: I was talking to my agent about this, in regards to this academy that we're starting now.

Our plan and our goal is to raise players who can reach that level on the national and international stage. And we now see in Europe what was happening in South America 20-25 years ago. You see young players with great talent, like Camavinga, Ansu Fati, Upamecano, playing for

their NT like they've been for 10 years. And didn't use to happen in Europe. It happened in South America. So these roles got reversed. And I think it's about academies and raising these talents. And we want to get back to Argentina having a 17 year old kid steal the spotlight in

the league but also be able to play for the NT. Why not? If I could do that they can too. And I wasn't extraordinary. All the contrary. If I did have something it was maybe the intelligence to adapt to what my role was in every moment and in every place I was in and

get the most of it so that I could stay in places like Barça. Tt's vital to put emphasis on raising intelligent players,because that will be the tool that will help them in any environment. Talent is nothing without the intelligence to use that talent for the benefit of the team.

Talent alone isn't enough. So that's what we will try to teach them. Hopefully we'll manage to do this.

Q: It's also important to teach them how to deal with failure, isn't it?
JM: I was watching a talk that Toni Nadal gave and he was saying that we're instilling into children a fear of making mistakes. We don't tell them when they're wrong.

And I think that's bad, because then they grow up and have no tolerance for errors. And we have to tell them that mistakes are part of this. So you shouldn't be scared of it. Because that fear can paralyze you. We'll make bad decisions.

The important thing is to face it all naturally and not be scared of doing things.

Q: Ansu Fati doesn't seem scared of anything.
JM: His future depends entirely on him. On his ambition to keep growing as a player, on his intelligence to keep learning from his great teammates and the coaches he'll have.

His destiny is in his hands. Because it's clear he can be very important. He has the reigns.

Q: Sergi Roberto said that after the 8-2 he almost didn't want to play football again. How does one get over something like that, does it leave a permanent scar?
JM: Of course you always have something left, but I think you get over it, but looking at it as a learning experience.

The lesson is that maybe that was the end of an era and that you have to rebuild something and of course that won't be easy, but this is Barcelona and they always have great players. If they're there it's because they earned it elsewhere.

And bit by bit it hurts less and you have a lesson for the future. You know that doing things a certain way led to that outcome, so you have to change that.

Q: There was also what happened with Messi and the burofax. Do you think that he did things wrong or that the club was wrong in not listening to him?
JM: Firstly I'm not very aware or interested in the whole legal aspect of that.

He said that in that moment he felt that for his sake and the club's sake he had to tell them what he was thinking. I don't know if he told them privately and they didn't listen so he had to go public. But it's important for everyone to be united now and move on, like he said.

Q: Do you see Leo as a coach in the future?
JM: Who knows? He could be. He's the player that best understands and reads the game. Without a doubt. That's why he plays like he does. He has the ability to understand and execute what's needed. That's why he's unique.

I never asked him if he wanted to do it. But on knowledge alone he should be.

Q: Is he the best player ever for you?
JM: From what I've seen, yes. He's unique. Seeing him up close and in detail and in training and noticing how he's evolved over the years, his transformation from the 20 year old explosive dribbling winger that I met at the NT,

who you couldn't get the ball off of, to the complete player he is today. He kept adding things to his game and he now can play as an attacking midfielder who can score 25-30 goals/season.

Q: Of course his numbers are always amazing.
JM: For me what matters is what I see with my eyes. Comparing him with others based on numbers is unfair, because he's bigger than those numbers.

You can have other great players who have score 5-600 goals, but what makes Leo great isn't his numbers, it's what he does. And that's unique. And making the extraordinary something ordinary that you get every 3 days when we know how difficult it is, is unbelievable.

Q: If you could just pick one memory from your time at Barça what would it be?
JM: The dressing room. Especially the first years, it was amazing. Being able to live day to day with players like Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Victor Valdés... Being welcomed by David Villa...

Of course everyone that stayed on after that and those who came later too. But the way I was greeted when I first came in was special. I arrived when they were at the peak of their powers, had just won a WC, Barça legends already...

Their humbleness amazed me and above all the fact that this was a dressing room that breathed football. And I'm of that old guard, I'm more of a romantic. It's more difficult now to sit down to talk football for an hour straight with a young player.

And I think that was Barça's big secret. Players who thought about football and lived to play football. And that's why they played it so well. Great players, great people, very intelligent. So that's what I'm left with. The dressing room and everything that's nice about football.

The trips, the meals together... Of course we all like celebrating the trophies and playing for important stuff. But in the end what it comes down to is enjoying the day to day. If you don't feel good in the dressing room every day it's complicated.

And we enjoyed it. We won, we played great, but we also had great fun. In trainings, in the dressing room, with the jokes we made... Like one day you walked out to find all your tires slashed and you had to walk home.

Or you got back from a CL game at 3AM and Piqué had left the air out of all your tires and you had to find a way to get home. Or you got out of the shower and found out that they had cut a leg off your pants... So we had plenty of fun.

And I believe that you take that enjoyment on the pitch too.

Q: Do you see yourself coming back to Barcelona some day?
JM: Yes, I could. I have a Catalan son, so why not? It's a city that I will always return to. I have friends there and it's always going to be a part of my life.

In a professional sense I don't know if I'll be good enough to one day return to the club. That's something I can't answer now. Of course working for Barça is a dream, I don't know in what capacity exactly, but I do have that dream, because it's the club where I was happiest,

where I learned to see football differently and that's the way I still feel it and enjoy it. But it's a unique place and you have to be ready and able to work there. It's not for anyone. So we'll see if I get there.

Aaaaand we're done. Hope you guy enjoy it. Took way longer than I thought it would, lol.