Thread by @alysanmati

It's Dr. Alexander Westphal's fourth day on the stand, and Crown prosecutor Joe Callaghan will continue cross-examining him. My story on what happened yesterday is below, and you can follow my live-tweeting there or here. thestar.com/news/gta/2020/…

We also just got copies of the transcripts of the video clips played in court. The videos themselves cannot be released as a condition of Westphal testifying. I'm almost certain that, having seen them, there is no reason they would not be released under normal circumstances.

The Crown starts off by talking about Dr. Bradford's notes of his interviews with Minassian. Asks Westphal if he read them.

Westphal says he did, considered them part of medical records.

(Yesterday he said he didn't read any notes done by the other assessors).

Westphal said the fact he read those notes are in the report.

Crown: You just weren't as careful in answering the question yesterday

Westphal agrees, says he didn't think of these particular notes in that way.

Westphal said he went into his interviews with Minassian not knowing anything other than he'd been diagnosed with autism. He wanted to get a "clear and unbiased" assessment of Minassian. Didn't review notes prior to meeting Minassian.

Crown says that's not what he said yesterday.

Westphal said he's not sure when he reviewed the notes with respect to the first meeting with Minassian.

Crown: Isn't the point to get the info to conduct assessment property, so you can ask him questions?

Westphal said there were "multiple time points." He spoke to Minassian on four days, twice in Dec, once in Jan and once in July. He doesn't recall the sequence but didn't review enough to have a "significant sense of him" and did the record review afterwards.

He repeats he didn't want to bias himself, prior to the interview.

Crown: You hadn't formed your opinion in January? But you reviewed records between Dec and Jan. Not worried about bias then?

Westphal said by then he had an initial sense of Minassian.

It was a different phase of the process then. Knew by then he did not have a psychotic disorder and was not a psychopath. Also knew by then he had autism. Next phase would involve the records.

Westphal said he reviewed the records listed in the report before it was submitted. That's what he can say for sure.

Crown pushing him about admitting he read records before the Jan interviews.

Westphal said he continued to read records and spoke to Minassian again in July.

Crown: Someone could have strong interests, overvalued ideas, obsession. But if they don't have a delusion, wouldn't rise to level of psychosis?

Westphal: It's complex. Agree obsessions are not delusions.

Crown: But they don't affect operating mind?

Westphal: If you are obsessed with an outcome or rigid about thinking about things, like Minassian saying he continued with the attack bc he rented the van already. Beyond that I'm not sure.

Crown: You said he felt he had to go through with it. A compulsion?

Westphal: It was an ingredient.

Crown: An important factor to consider in report

Westphal agrees

Crown is going to play another video clip from Minassian's interview with Westphal and his colleague. It's from Dec. 13.

Actually it is an audio clip not a video clip.

Crown says it's important because Minassian says he didn't think he had to do it.

CLIP: Did you feel compelled, Westphal asked him. Against your will in any way?

"I felt a strong desire (as the date approached)," Minassian said. "I didn't really feel forced or compelled to do it. I didn't feel that I HAD to do it."

Westphal testifies he understands Minassian does have inflection on certain words and variation in intonation.

Crown: He doesn't appear baffled. He is responsive.

Westphal agrees.

Crown: This passage includes significant information

Westphal disagrees.

He didn't feel compelled, if he did that would have been significant.

Westphal another time asked him if he thought there were two of him, one a person being dared.

Crown: Where is the audio clip reflected in your report?

Westphal said the bit about strong desire.

Crown: You know we are talking about compulsion!

Westphal says the report reflects Minassian saying he had a strong desire. Minassian didn't say he felt compelled so he doesn't understand the point of this q.

Crown: Where do you say he did not feel compelled.

Westphal: I didn't say he felt compelled.

Crown: You are saying "he felt like he had to go through with it" doesn't suggest to the reader he felt compelled?

Westphal: Not a robotic "I must, I must." The compulsion piece, he strongly desired to do is part of it but not what allowed this to happen.

Crown: Did you not agree compulsion was an important thing to address?

Westphal agrees.

Crown: And he told you he didn't, but that's not reflected in report. You implied he did feel compelled.

Westphal said he doesn't see Minassian as being forced or compelled. I don't understand, he says. His strong desire was important ingredient but he wasn't compelled

Crown: You only included facts that fit your narrative.

Westphal: That's a way to see it. I don't think he was compelled. Describing it as it was described in the report captures what Minassian said.

Crown again asks how the report does that.

Westphal: My report doesn't say he felt compelled. Saying he felt he "had to" go through it doesn't mean that. Felt obligated. Not a compulsion.

Crown now says Westphal did not include this in his notes.

Crown: You want me to show you the 105 pages?

Crown: "Look at them on the computer you can search words."

Westphal is looking at something in his hands and is now pulling up his notes on the computer.

Crown: I searched your notes using the key words. You didn't say he didn't feel compelled or forced to do this.

Westphal: I see it as the absence of something I'd thought could be a major ingredient.

Crown: You ruled it out, but it's not in your notes

Westphal: "I'm being pressured to rationalize this" and he says he doesn't think it is important. Maybe it's absence is curious but no reason to emphasize something that isn't an important ingredient.

Crown: Why is it not in the report?

Westphal: I don't think he felt compelled

Crown: We only know he said this because the judge ruled the videos and audio had to be released. You left it out because it doesn't fit the narrative.

Westphal: Left out he didn't feel compelled?

Westphal said he didn't think Minassian felt compelled. Not a major reason underlying his actions. It's just curious it wasn't present. Clearly we diverge on that.

Crown: So there is no evidence of compulsion

Westphal: It's your word. I think he felt "he had to go through with this" when he rented the can and triggered the sequence of events. But not a compulsion.

Crown: But Minassian said in the clip he DIDN'T feel he had to do it.

Defence objects because the reason the clip was played was to show Minassian's inflection on had.

(Minassian said in the clip: I didn't feel that I HAD to do it.)

Judge says she doesn't think Westphal understands the line of questioning. She's trying to break it down. The report doesn't say compulsion but that that he "had to go through with it".

Crown wants to know where that comes from. Not in the video, audio and notes. Are you sure you go it right. It's pretty close here.

Crown says that's not the point. Point is that he doesn't include what Minassian says here in the report.

Judge: You are saying he has created impression that there is a compulsion. I've got your point, he disagrees. Let's move on.

Crown is now reading a portion of Westphal's report preceding where he says Minassian's autistic way of thinking distorted his thinking similar to psychosis. Now we know why he keeps asking about the term baffled.

Westphal said in report Minassian at time appeared "baffled" and was unable to answer questions.

Crown says he doesn't seem baffled in the clips we've seen.

Westphal said it's an observation based on his testing answers.

Crown says the preceding paragraphs reference both interviews and testing. So it leaves the reader with the impression.

Westphal apologizes, part of a report that includes observations of three people. It was an observation as part of the assessment.

Crown: This paragraph sounds like your overall impression? At the end of the pararaph it says "overall, it was our impression that despite that fact..."

We are on a pause because the court reporter who transcribes these proceedings has apparently lost power. Taking the morning break now.

The full line re baffled is: "Minassian answered questions in a very concrete way, often requiring the interviewer to rephrase questions several times in order for him to answer. At times Mr Minassian would appear baffled and was unable to provide answers, despite being...

asked to take his time and consider the question. And many of the answers were off the mark, with extraneous detail or missing the point....

Overall, it was our impression that despite the fact he was not psychotic, his autistic way of thinking was severely distorted in a way similar to psychosis."

So this is why the Crown kept asking yesterday if Minassian appeared thoughtful and responsive in the interview clips.

So the whole neighbourhood in which the court reporter lives has lost power. Taking a break until either someone else can take over, or the power is fixed. Very little was lost because she alerted the court immediately.

We are back at 1 pm. In the meantime, another important story I did with @wendygillis is now online. thestar.com/news/gta/2020/…

We are back up now, and the court reporter has her power back.

Crown says the passage in Westphal's report doesn't reflect how responsive Minassian was in the interviews and his comprehension. "Explain yourself."

Westphal says he wants to explain how he came to those observations. He says that's not a fair statement by the Crown

Westphal says the passage is the overall assessment of Minassian. He says it's linked to the social cognitive processing style and empathy piece and wants to explain that.

Minassian has variations in his presentation. It's uniformly flat but there are differences. Need to see overall picture.

Crown: That description of Minassian's presentation, comprehension and responsiveness is from the testing.

Westphal says no (he did agree with this before)

Westphal now says it's also linked to some parts of his interviews as well as the testing. He wants to take us to those parts.

Defence asks Westphal be allowed to, Judge agrees.

Westphal reads from another part of the report where he says Minassian was "quite verbal and had no difficulty in basic communication" however is communication "awkward and lacking social qualities."

Points to the puzzle test which found that Minassian lacked "very basic" social-communication skills.

Westphal is also pointing out bits of the transcript. Minassian is explaining some kind of "theorem" he was developing. It is a very long answer.

"That's neat" Westphal told Minassian at the end of the answer, though he had no idea what Minassian had just said.

Another part: The question is how is it revenge when the people you killed have no idea who you are. Minassian replies if he'd killed socially active college students, other socially isolated people would understand. It's about what they represent, not who they are.

Minassian says the families of his victims would have questions. What has she done to deserve this. Why attack her? He talks about seeing a family crying on tv. He tried to get it out his mind. It wasn't "some stereotypical person" playing beer-pong with shirts off.

Westphal said that shows it took someone crying on tv to make Minassian see his victims as people and not stereotypes.

Crown says Minassian appears to be making sense in these sections.

Westphal said the math stuff is concrete. Had some info from his dad about it.

And the other bit shows he does not understand perspective of his interviews

Crown says you aren't saying this math section is why you wrote what you did in the report.

Westphal says the math answer was off-the-mark. Had no idea if I knew what he was talking about. Extraneous detail.

Crown: Did you tell him you didn't understand, I'm not a mathematician?

Westphal said no.

Crown: You said the opposite.

Westphal said it more like a social thing.

Crown: The passages you just showed show the same level of responsiveness and comprehension as what we've already seen.

Westphal agrees.

Crown: He doesn't seem baffled.

Westphal said he does seem confused.

Westphal points to where Minassian was confused by a clear question in the clip about morality (I'm not sure it was actually a clear question, and when Westphal re-asked it Minassian answered)

And the Crown is making the same point I just did. Minassian answered appropriately once he got clarification.

Westphal: He got confused in the context

Crown: He got confused by your questioning

Westphal: I agree, fair enough.

Westphal does say there are times he appeared baffled, and answered in a way that shows he doesn't understand. Can spit out an answer rapidly. But also thinks Minassian is quite thoughtful.

Crown: He is responsive and able to provide answers.

Westphal agrees.

Westphal has gone back to talking about testing again.

The Crown suggests again the paragraph does not reflect the interviews.

Westphal said there are examples of it in the interviews. Thinks the statement is fair.

Crown: It was your best effort to present what you saw.

Westphal: It was based on overall assessment. Clearly we see things differently.

Crown asks the question again about if the passage is accurate, Westphal says it is.

Now another part of the report. Minassian can function at or above a normal level in many intellectual tasks. "At the same time his communication in every day settings is more like that of a child and his skills in social relationships are even lower."

Crown: What is lower than a child?

Westphal points to the testing, which found in parts that Minassian is equivalent to a two-year-old in some parts.

Crown: The report doesn't refer to the testing.

Westphal apologizes. He thinks it fairly represents Minassian's function.

(Should be this section of the report).

Westphal reads the passage out again. Westphal says the Vineland testing of everyday skills was taken into account here which is different from a psychiatric interview.

Crown: Minassian is highly intelligent.

Westphal: No, he is intelligent. He's above-average.

Crown: Given his intelligence, he can learn well.

Westphal: I disagree completely

Crown: Completely?

Westphal: He has social cognitive deficits, Minassian hasn't had some interventions in a key developmental window.

Westphal says these things need to be done early on. Minassian's social development is very very impaired and his ability to learn social insight is impaired.

Westphal says this is counter-intuitive. "But he's so smart, why can't he understand this social situation."

Crown: But given his intelligence and his ability to retain information, he's a good learner.

Westphal: You have to qualify learning here.

Westphal said there was a period where intervention could have changed Minassian's development. Not sure what could be done to alter that now.

Westphal says Minassian's ability to learn about social context is dissociated from his intelligence. "Would it were so easy" for him to learn this, could help many adults with autism.

Crown: Psychological testing could be helpful in understanding Minassian, but other things also important.

Westphal agrees.

Crown: We have to look at what he told all assessors.

Westphal agrees.

Crown: Need to look at examples from his own life.

Westphal agrees.

Crown: All of this needs to be taken together.

Westphal agrees.

Westphal completely disagrees that the IQ testing rules out more severe forms of autism spectrum disorder. Basing autism on IQ is not accurate.

Minassian can have a very high IQ and have severe autism, Westphal said.

Crown reads a portion of an IQ report about it being hard to get a high IQ score with impact on concrete thinking from severe autism.

Westphal said Minassian has high verbal comprehension.

Crown says again it would be hard to achieve a high IQ "with severe, concrete and literal thought processes."

Westphal said he is not an IQ expert. Disagrees high IQ can't occur with concrete thinking.

Crown is reading the definition of verbal comprehension index from the IQ test. Including knowledge of the environment.

Westphal says verbal fluency doesn't capture social dimensions of the environment.

Taking a ten minute break.

Back and talking about the part of the Vineland test involving Minassian's parents. They filled out a caregiver report form.

Crown: Did it not give you pause when his parents report about his limited social function didn't reflect your observations?

Westphal said he was speaking to Minassian in cell, didn't see him navigating a job or social environment, or school. Didn't observe him in the world.

Westphal notes he didn't have a sustained career path, for example.

Crown asking about Minassian's "superior language skills." Doesn't that mean he has an excellent ability to understand language.

Westphal said have to look at the social domain.

Crown: You must have thought "heck" this doesn't reflect the person I've spent so long speaking to.

Westphal: That is point re applying intelligence in real world.

Westphal said Minassian has a limited social circle. Mostly via playing video games. Not sophisticated.

Crown: That is what you know about his social circle?

Crown: Minassian has a superior ability with words and thoughts when he spoke with you

Westphal: Didn't get impression he was superior. Gave examples of rapid and knee-jerk answers. Verbal fluency obscures his functional level.

Crown: To say his communication is more like that of a child is completely inaccurate.

Westphal disagrees based on testing and his ability to function socially.

Crown: Minassian's scores his capacity for moral reasoning at an intellectual level

Westphal: His IQ doesn't capture empathy and an entire dimension of moral reasoning.

Westphal looks increasingly tired and frustrated.

Crown: Minassian has average perceptual reasoning.
Westphal agrees.
Crown: Working memory, ability to hold information. Crown expert score very different from defence score. Crown expert found him "superior" defence found him "average"

Westphal can't explain the difference and isn't sure he noted it.

(I feel like we are just going in circles here with this part of the cross which is why I'm not tweeting much)

Crown is still painstakingly taking Westphal through the IQ test (which Westphal did not administer and is not qualified to administer, it's done by a psychologist).

Crown suggests Minassian's cognitive abilities are not those you'd expect for someone with severe autism spectrum disorder.

Westphal disagrees.

Crown suggest Minassian in the interviews shows a greater capacity for abstract thinking than Westphal admits.

Westphal obviously disagrees and the Crown chuckles.

Crown: You are saying (people with autism) can figure it out they just can't feel it (of moral reasoning).

Westphal: To figure it out you have to feel it, to reason morally. Notes lots of people with autism can do this, lots of variation

We are on a break, back shortly

Crown is going through Minassian's schooling now. He got a 76 per cent average in high school. Reflects his intellectual ability and ability to navigate the social environment of high school.

Westphal notes he was in a special education class. He struggled in high school.

Crown: You don't give him credit for navigating high school?

Westphal: Give him some, but notes he had help.

Crown: He got a 3.7 GPA at Seneca College. His transcripts of his last term, in the months before the attack, he had a 4.0 GPA.

Westphal agrees.

Crown: You said it took him 7 years to complete college. You didn't say it was because he switched majors from informatic? security to software development.

Westphal was aware.

Crown: Did you discuss this?

Westphal: Can't recall.

Westphal remembers talking about him wanting to switch to chemistry which was a dramatic switch. These two doesn't sound very different.

Crown: You don't know what role his major switch made in how long it took him to graduate?

Westphal: Hadn't appreciated that subtlety. Still thinks 7 years is a long time. According to the four year usual time period. Plenty of people do take longer. Not something huge. For him it was a marker of his struggles as adult with autism.

Minassian failed three courses total. Did very well in his studies with a 4.0 GPA in four seperate terms. Gotta give him credit for wanting to excel intellectually, and socially at a university level.

Westphal says he doesn't see it that way. Don't think he had a normal college

experience. Not something measured in his transcript. It's a measure of his academic capacity in those classes.

He was living at home and his social world was very constrained. Not participating in typical parts of college experiences.

Crown: You know that he succeeded in group work. As someone who is doing group work now, it's not an easy thing to do

Westphal: That is fair but more complicated than that.

Crown: It's a piece to show Minassian actually had some abilities in social communication sphere.

Westphal: The anecdote of the group presentation when he sat down and got on his computer.

Crown: You got that from his parents. Did you ask Minassian about that?

Westphal: I don't recall it standing it out. No reason to question his parents description of that.

Crown: Would it have been important to ask him?

Westphal: I didn't verify everything his parents said. We did the best we can in those situations.

Crown: Parents only know what Minassian tell them. And he kept things from them.

Westphal says he doesn't see a social dimension in academic group work in the same way as normal social situation. Doesn't know what the specific interactions where, and what other students though. The mere fact of group work doesn't speak to social development.

Westphal is again saying despite Minassian's high IQ he found social and romantic interactions very difficult. That he made it through college doesn't measure that.

Crown: He didn't "make it through" college. He excelled.

(I think there a lot of people who would tell you that excelling academically and having a social life are two very different things)

Crown says, okay let's layer on part-time jobs. He succeeded at that job, why not consider it an achievement

Westphal maintains Minassian didn't have a social world at his job and that was difficult for him.

Crown: Did you go through Mr. Minassian's resume with him?

Westphal: Why would I have done that?

Crown: Social communication at work is not just about a social life. There is communication that must happen at a job.

Westphal: Minassian spent him time at his desk doing programming work. Very hard for him to know what to do

Westphal didn't go through his resume but did go through employment history.

Crown: Did you talk about the job interview process? A demanding social situation. But he got multiple jobs successfully.

Westphal says if he can have the job interview explained he can comment. He doesn't think Minassian would be hired because of an interview. Not something he recalls speaking to Minassian about though.

Crown: Why didn't you ask about it?

Westphal: I didn't think of it. I assumed the jobs were skills-based programming jobs. If his job had been something with a central social aspect, customer-focused would have thought it more significant. His experience was one of isolation.

Crown is asking about social dimensions of military recruitment.

Westphal says he doesn't see it as a social judgement process on part of recruitment. If they'd been aware of his social difficulties, they may have excluded him

Crown: He was able do the military interview and choose what to disclose and what not to.

Westphal: His verbal skills don't reflect his social insight

Crown: Sounds like social communication was above the level of a child though

Westphal: He didn't last long in the military though.

Crown said when he managed to get jobs and join the military, it shows he could social communicate at a level higher than a child.

Westphal stands by his report

Crown: You want to ignore the reality of what Minassian achieved? Ignore the full picture?

Westphal says Minassian hung on by his nails in the social world in college, as was aware of it. And the military cannot have looked at him that closely, don't what the recruiter thought process was.

Crown: His social skills convinced them to hire him.

Westphal: Don't know how they decided to hire him.

Crown: Minassian struggled with time issues in military and fine motor skills for things like sewing on the uniform. He negotiated himself out of the military with an honourable discharge. Shows ability to communicate in social setting.

Westphal: He was aware he could be dishonourably discharged if it came up that he covered up his disability. Could not thrive or flourish in the environment, which became obvious to him and them. He didn't wait till he was kicked out but it was clear what would happen.

Not an intensely social decision.

Westphal report on what Minassian wrote in his release request. "I vastly underestimated the discipline and exactness required for BMQ. I was thinking about it for a week and kept trying to mentally adjust, but am just unable to keep up with the work or handle the stress"

Crown: But he had to meet with people to get honourably discharged, right.

Westphal: It was a mutual decision.

(I'm not sure anyone know exactly what this process was like? Going in circles again)

Crown again says if Minassian was child-like in his communication he would not have gotten into the military.
Westphal says his verbal skills are different from his social skills.

The Crown has pulled up the report again.

The report says "his communication in everyday settings is more like that of a child."

Taking another ten-minute break now.

Revisiting the Irish cases, Justice Molloy says the newspaper articles don't shed much light on what happened and don't suggest there is much precedential value there. Not going to pursue it.

We are going to watch another video of Minassian. It's about nine minutes long. Crown says it's relevant in light of the conflicting evidence of Dr. Westphal. Minassian appears neither baffled neither unresponsive.

In the clip Minassian asked about his reading the Bible. He spends most of his time in his cell. He says it is part of giving him a sense of hope. Talks about being a "dark dirty cell" after his arrest and being on suicide watch. Hard to contemplate spending many years like that

Westphal asks he speaks to anyone about it. He speaks to his mom and his parents. He recites his favourite verses to his parents from memory. (He smiles a bit as he said this).

He recites one that they like. (I think it started about forgiveness). He talks about not growing up religious. He says the central tenet of Christianity is hope. Westphal asks about Jesus. Minassian says he was preaching to the crowd.

What does his death represent. He willingly gave himself up to die, Minassian said. He died for everyone's sins from a Biblical perspective, from a historical one they didn't like what he was preaching. People have a chance to redeem themselves if they put in the work.

Westphal asks if he thinks that about himself. Minassian says if people work together, talk about what changes you need to make. (He doesn't really answer the question I think)

Westphal asks what Minassian thinks what he has done and whether redemption is realistic. Minassian says he knows he is legally looking at 10 life sentences. Westphal asks about spiritual redemption. Minassian say he knows what he did is worse, irredeemable.

The Crown says the video shows his presentation, responsiveness and comprehension.

He is thoughtful and insightful, and gives responses that are not concrete and inflexible. He shows some expressions, it's not all monotone.

It is nothing like Dr. Westphal described in his report, Crown says.

Defence: He is talking about an area he has discussed with the chaplain and his parents. Not assessing his state of mind in Jan 2020.

Molloy notes this is not a person who's state fluctuates. He's static, based on all the doctor observations. Not a condition that changes. His normal demeanour is flat. He is very conversational in this which you don't get from transcript. A to-and-fro.

He is reflective at times. On balance I think there is some merit to the argument that the transcript doesn't do it justice.

Westphal said Minassian said he was "99 per cent irredeemable" in the video. Doesn't reflect real understanding.

Crown: You didn't find it to be insightful?

Westphal: It was very concrete.

(Just FYI the bible verse he quoted started at Colossians 1:9 bible.com/bible/70/COL.1…)

Westphal thinks there are some insightful aspects to what he said.

Crown: He explains how he drew hope and meaning from reading the Bible like literature

Westphal: He said he was 99% irredeemable and doing it anyway. In practical way all can find hope in. Practical solution.

Crown: He does a modern day comparison to people getting killing for their beliefs. He looked it from a historical and Biblical perspective.

Westphal: He explained what he understood.

Crown: Did you listen when it was playing? Did you listen when he told you? He explains he isn't approaching this from a religious perspective, a way to give him hope. You said yesterday he became religious. But he isn't.

Crown: "Were you not listening to him?"

Westphal: I was. I just had a different interpretation.

Crown says Minassian is able to relate the experiences of someone being killed in a third-world country for dissenting and Jesus. Shows perspective-taking.

Westphal doesn't see it.

Crown: This shows Minassian had taken on all of the rules he learned as his own morality.

Westphal: I didn't hear him express anything about his morality. He said he looked at the Bible for hope.

Crown: Doesn't he show real perspective in his example about a nephew being helped by a preacher. Isn't that explaining a moral truth?

Westphal: A moral truth?

Defence objects. This is crossing into theology and understanding the Bible, not an area of his expertise. It implies an interpretation of the Bible we don't have a foundation for.

Justice Molloy says the point is not about theology. Minassian said he is an atheist. He doesn't believe it. Question is what he takes from it and some concepts of redemption or something. He does a "very sophisticated analysis" of what it means as literature, spirituality

of history, what it means in our lives. She says Westphal isn't being asked about theology, just Minassian's thinking.

"This is not concrete. It's esoteric...philosophical," she said.

Defence says Crown is taking a run at Westphal's credibility and these questions are not only about abstract thinking. Baked into questions are his understanding of the Bible

Molloy says she doesn't understand.

Anyway, this wasn't where the Crown is going. The court verifies the verse Minassian recited is real.

Judge does tell Callaghan to stop laughing at the answers, it is disrespectful.

Westphal says Minassian has been focused on the Bible for a while. Was expecting something about remorse and empathy and didn't see any of that. Only a nuts and bolts practical understanding, involving him being locked up

Also doesn't think it shows perspective-taking. He is just drawing a comparison. It's an analogy.

Crown: You don't think it shows empathy to compare Jesus to someone being killed for dissenting by a third-world government?

Westphal says not really.

Crown: He's not baffled

Westphal agrees

Westphal disagrees that it is not concrete thinking and that Minassian misses the point in the conversation re remorse.

Done for the day. Crown expects to go all day tomorrow and possibly into Monday.