Thread by @alysanmati

The cross-examination of Dr. Alexander Westphal continues today in the Toronto van attack trial (his fifth day on the stand, he's spent about 1.5 days in cross already).

thestar.com/news/gta/2020/…

Looks like the Crown has picked up on the same theme we spent much of yesterday on: examples where Minassian is clear, responsive, thoughtful and not child-like which he suggests is in opposition to what the defence psychiatrist said.

Now talking about the police interview Minassian did. Westphal calls it "an amazing interview." But he says the "backbone" of Minassian's story was based on Elliot Rodger's manifesto and he was just reciting things.

Westphal maintains that Minassian is a good speaker and that it obscures his disability in social communication. "He was child-like... asked for his rights to lawyer... but didn't stick to his guns." Could be easily led, naive. That is quite child-like.

Westphal said obviously his horrific actions were not those of a child.

"Quite knowledgable in the law when he spoke to Det. Thomas," Crown says. Judge said not a fair q for an American who doesn't know Canadian laws.

Westphal said, other than Elliot Rodger script, he was stuck by Minassian saying he wanted a lawyer and then not sticking to it. He doesn't see it as showing social dexterity and complex thought. Not a "subtle exchange." Shows naivety.

Crown says Minassian did exercise his right to silence several times. Westphal said he did but he also then spoke a lot afterwards. He couldn't stick to it.

Crown points out that Minassian did choose what to share and what not to share. Westphal said it was more that it was a skilled interview.

Crown points out that Minassian clearly didn't want to name other people, his father, his friends. Shows that he wanted to protect their privacy (and thus shows perspective-taking).

Westphal agrees.

Crown: Minassian didn't appear baffled.

Westphal said he isn't sure, doesn't know enough about it. He got baffled by the interviewer's skill in interviewing.

Crown: In this interview Minassian shows himself to be calculating.

Westphal: Agreed he lied re the Elliot Rodger story and being an incel hero which doesn't make sense.

Crown points out Minassian has given reasons for why he (in Minassian's words) "spiced up" the narrative. He thought no one would care about his story. Do you not understand this reasoning?

Westphal basically said he doesn't really think it makes sense

Crown: Does Minassian lying to protect his father not show empathy and taking the perspective of his father?

Westphal: Does show some understanding of his father needs which is unusual for him. But too general at statement.

Crown: He was facing ten life sentences. But even facing that himself, he thought of his father.

Westphal agrees it was an attempt to protect his father but also shows his naivete.

Crown is going through a Facebook message exchange Minassian had with someone (a friend?). He talks about his job search and what kind of work he wants to do.

The conversation is easy to follow, clear and there is nothing unusual about that. It happened in mid-March 2018, about a month before the attack. He has a clear idea about the different career paths of a programmer, talks about what it would take to work for yourself.

*unusual about it. Minassian says he'd prefer to be a senior software developer and a team lead one day, rather than work for himself.

They make plans to meet in mid-April. "Awesome, looking forward to it! :)" Minassian asks if he's on Linkedin, and says he'll finish setting it up before they meet.

Crown: He has a very good ability to communicate in everyday settings.

Westphal: No. It's written not in person and it's about shared interests. Minassian sent several ppl a "hey, how's it going" line and this guy responded. Minassian seemed to want another contact on linkedin

Westphal says this isn't like a party or something like that.

Crown asks if Westphal devalues the conversation because it's about shared interests.

Westphal said it seemed to him like mostly sharing technical information

Westphal says it's easier for Minassian to connect virtually rather that in real life social settings.

Crown asks why he doesn't distinguish written communication in the report. You thought this was sufficient in THIS case about mass murder?

Westphal said he thought the convo was consistent with his written abilities

Crown says the conversation shows Minassian's ability to take the perspective of his friend.

Defence asks to take the break now, so Westphal can read the conversation for himself.

Westphal says the just because Minassian has a social disability, doesn't mean he is not socially motivated. But doesn't see Minassian trying to generate a social life as evidence of a social life.

Crown: Isn't this two friends catching up?

Westphal said it shows two people who know each other trading technical information.

Crown did you speak to Minassian about these?

Westphal said no, only got them afterwards.

Crown: Minassian asked his friend what kind of work have you been doing. Asks him about his type of work, business intelligence. Shows empathy and can consider his friend's perspective.

Westphal disagrees. Talks about quality of interactions. This is socially stilted.

Crown: What info did you have about his face to face interactions with his friends.

Westphal: Didn't observe any. Part of interview observations and his own observations, his family's descriptions.

Crown: Have you looked at the Crown social worker report? Factored that in to your testimony?

Westphal: Have read it, not part of his report conclusions.

Crown: Did it change your views?

Westphal: I don't remember the details of the report.

Westphal notes the Crown experts didn't do specific autism testing.

Looking at another Facebook message chain initiated by Minassian in mid-March 2018. "hey man hows it going, long time no see." They also make plans to meet up.

They arrange to meet on April 2, 2018. Minassian checks in about this two weeks later and they set up a time. On April 2, Minassian messages his friend about where to meet. They arrange the caf but there was mix up about times.

They end up postponing until April 22, after his semester is done. "Until then TTYL, take care :)"

This is the friend Minassian told his dad he'd be meeting with on the day of the attack.

Westphal says it has been a long time since they met up. "It's a sad exchange in the sense that" Minassian is trying to get purchase on the social world. Minassian sort of got rejected.

Sees it like a plea for social interaction, not an active social group.

Crown: You don't see it as a normal conversation between friends.

Westphal: I think Minassian missed the subtext of the conversation

Crown: He shows himself capable of seeing his friend's perspective

Westphal: His friend doesn't want to meet and Mr. Minassian misses that, if he did he'd have been there. Minassian instead puts pressure on him

Westphal said he assumes his friend didn't want to meet.

Crown: You seem to be making alot of assumption based on no facts

Westphal agrees.

(agrees in the context of not really knowing what Minassian's friend was thinking about meeting up. The friend said he missed the part of the message where Minassian mentioned a time).

Crown: Isn't real life through Facebook and virtual means these days?

Westphal: Perhaps

Now looking at the texts from Minassian's phone. Westphal hasn't seen them. He's gonna read them over lunch.

The Crown hasn't gotten to the online influence stuff. Westphal was really strong in saying if it wasn't for Minassian absorbing that content, this would not have happened. Would like to hear more about that.

Anyway back at 1:15

We are back. Crown is reading out a text exchange between Minassian and his dad while Minassian was out. He is at a "bar-like" place. The exchange ends with both says "love you, good night."

Westphal said Minassian told him he'd gotten drunk once before at some kind of party with friends. This is one of a handful of times he did something like this. Clear from his dad's concern about it.

Westphal says he doesn't know what incident this is. Minassian told him he made a "sort-of" friend in the military. Didn't get sense this was an average night.

Crown: Does it sound like he is having difficulties?

Westphal: Can't tell much from it

Another exchange from Oct. 29, 30 between Minassian and a friend of his brother's. Minassian has a hangover and says he'd "never been to a party like that."

Crown: No trouble communicating?

Westphal: His friend was bantering and Minassian went into app development. Also an acknowledgement that this was unusual.

Westphal: Minassian is a smart guy desperate to fit in socially.

They continue to disagree about what this shows

Westphal says text messages miss social nuance. They have discussed the use of emoticons and Minassian's ability to use "lol" and :)

They continue to parse short text exchanges.

Crown: Now, seeing these, did you not have all the information you needed?

Westphal says it doesn't change his opinion.

Going through more text exchanges. Same back and forth between the Crown and Westphal. There was a dispute earlier about what "hbu" means (how about you).

Westphal is unclear if a reference to the Black Panther is to the political movement or the film (it was the film).

The Crown says Minassian spoke about a variety of topics with his friend (manga, anime, video games, marvel movies) in the months and weeks preceding the attack. Not incels or Elliot Rodger.

Westphal agrees.

Minassian told psychiatrists that he was careful about his searching online or excessively referencing Rodger because he didn't want to raise red flags or have someone search the house.

Minassian said he might have tried to make a plan with someone if he were sure they weren't an undercover cop and he was guaranteed privacy.

Crown: He knows his interest in mass killings is against society's moral code.

Westphal said he doesn't say he doesn't tell anyone bc he knows they'd be horrified. More about consequences

Crown reads again: "There was never anyone I felt would agree with the mass killing stuff."

Westphal said his position is that he didn't know the impact his actions on people. Different from knowing people would not agree about mass killing.

Crown points to Minassian saying his actions were "devastating and irreversible."

Westphal said that doesn't show his insight, and if you look at some of the videos it's apparent.

Westphal acknowledges Minassian knew his friend wouldn't support his interest in mass killing.

The Crown is kind of yelling again. Re the devastating and irreversible comment from Minassian. "You didn't put that in the report. Why?"

Westphal says that doesn't capture it.

Crown says you don't ask him what he means by extremely devastating.

Crown: Why didn't you follow up given that this is your whole point?

Westphal: There was no good reason for him to do this, not that there is ever a good reason. Only common thing is that he didn't reference people's lives.

Westphal said if he did he would not approach it in the flat, unemotional way that he has. Complete absence of coherent reason means he doesn't know what he was doing to other people. Approached it like a video game.

Crown again accuses Westphal of cherry-picking the quotes in the report. Westphal disagrees.

Crown: "How can you testify on a mass murder" and not include that he said it was devastating and irreversible.

Wetsphal said his opinion is and remains that Minassian couldn't think about other lives.

Crown accused Westphal not being accurate and careful in his report. Westphal disagrees.

Westphal says the Crown social worker report doesn't change his opinion. He also spoke extensively with Minassian's family. He says the report is in line with his own view of Minassian

Crown asking why Westphal didn't look at notes by others about what Minassian's parents said.

Crown asks if he was concerned about the parents doing multiple interviews prior to speaking with him.

Westphal said he hadn't thought of this, says it is a fair criticism.

Crown now pointing to Minassian's relationship to his older brother. They did things together, went for sushi, went to the movies.

Westphal says that they did things together but also points to when his brother got ill, Minassian didn't want to stop playing his video game.

Minassian's brother said they got along really well. Never had to push him to hang out. When asked if there was one thing he would change about his brother, he said he wasn't how to answer the question. "He's my brother. We always used to get along really well."

Crown: You won't accept this shows a social relationship with his brother?

Westphal: It shows he was receptive to what his brother wanted to do. Not inconsistent with what I have described of Mr. Minassian.

Minassian's brother said they'd get one or two beers at a bar every few months. They'd discuss articles, card games.

Westphal: His older brother took him under his wing and looked after him like a brother should. Fraternal relationship rather than social.

Minassian's brother said Alek Minassian didn't have many friends but the friends he had were close friends. They'd come over to play games. He wasn't familiar with Alek's friends.

Westphal said Minassian has said he felt lonely and socially isolated and his brother, with whom he had a close relationship, didn't know that. Didn't discuss emotional things.

Crown says the account from Minassian's brother, who knows him better than Westphal, shows Minassian is capable of far more social skills and relationships than Westphal has said.

Minassian's brother described him as "laid-back." "He was the type of guy who relaxed with friends, play(ed) games, play(ed) games with me."

Judge interjects, gently says Westphal looks tired (he'd been leaning his head on his hands periodically). Asks if he needs a break.

Westphal says he is okay to continue.

The Crown is very focused on what Minassian's family has said about him, but the Crown also spent a lot of time suggesting Minassian's dad also knew very little about Minassian's life and didn't know him as well as they thought.

Molloy observes to the Crown she doesn't think Westphal is going to give a different answer on this area than he has over the past two hours no matter how skilled he is at cross-examination. We are taking a break.

Aha! We are now moving onto the issue of the influence of the internet, which Westphal has said was absolutely central to this.

Hearing Minassian tell Westphal about one website that jokes about mass killers. He warns Westphal there is some offensive/pornographic content too.

He's enjoyed reading stories on 4chan and reddit. He occasionally spoke to people who posted but not (as he told police) Elliot Rodger or Chris Harper-Mercer.

From this section, it's not clear that Minassian really had friends or relationships with people on 4chan, reddit or wherever.

In Westphal's report he says Minassian's autism "made him less able to appreciate the theatrical, exaggerated nature and extremeness of the material, or the dark humour behind some of it. He took it very literally."

But in this section read by the Crown Minassian mentions that the sites made fun or satirized some dark things.

Westphal: Minassian took the mass killer high score stuff literally and saw it as a competition. Minassian misread that even though he can see some of it was in jest

Crown says you didn't explain in your report that Minassian said the opposite of this in his interview with you.

Westphal said Minassian took the sick humour literally.

Crown: You've demonstrated that you don't understand your duty

(Judge says this is not appropriate).

Crown: You don't mention that Minassian says satire in your notes. Or that he said "they were just saying they were going to this" or exaggerating.

Some were serious about doing something, but it was hard to differentiate.

Westphal said it let him feel he was not completely alone.

Crown: We, the Crown, would not have known this if the recordings had not been disclosed to us.

Westphal says he has presented his opinions in the report and to the court.

Crown: You kept the other facts away from the court by not including them in the report.

Westphal says he interpreted what Minassian said.

He though there were people thinking like him and planning stuff like this.

Westphal maintains the report is representative of how he understood it.

(The access to the raw audio and video is so interesting. I'm not sure that is routine for forensic psychiatrists? Is it? The Crown psych didn't do it afaik).

Anyway, the judge says we need to go till 5 because Westphal has been on the stand for five days already and is now coming back on Monday, maybe Tuesday.

Crown says Minassian called this area of the internet fringe because he knew it was outside the bounds of mainstream society.

Westphal agrees.

Minassian said, other than in the fringe groups on the internet it would in his case be "probably unanimous that this was unjustifiable."

Westphal said the currency of those fringe groups is dark humour which he doesn't think Minassian "had access to"

Crown: Minassian is asks a moral question about a father robbing to a store to save his dying child. Minassian said it could be justified. But what he did would be unjustifiable. Shows his true understanding "from the heart" that what he did was wrong.

Westphal said he believes there is a group out there supporting in him in what he did. Says he does understand it was an "extreme rule violation."

Crown: Why not include this powerful passage in your report.

Westphal: For the same reason I've given previously. What he says is captured by the fact he recognizes it was something society would see as wrong but he doesn't see the context for it, or that this was just sick humour online.

This website "gave him a metric that normalized it."

Crown: He warned you about the content though.

Westphal: He did

The Crown psychiatrist says "when viewing these websites" he kept this private knowing both men and women wouldn't like it and stop talking to him. He knew these websites he was on were outside the bounds of mainstream society.

Westphal said he doesn't know who other ppl are

Crown: If you read the Crown psych notes before your last meeting with Minassian you could have asked him.

Westphal agrees.

Crown: Minassian, knowing the content of these fringe sites, he chose to read them. Willingly.

(I'm not sure anyone has explained in court at least how Minassian came to be on these sites, other than what he told the police which was apparently mostly a lie).

We are done for the day. Back on Monday.