Thread by @FloRoberts93

Watching the senate inquiry on the #NMBC.

Do none of these senators understand the internet? Advertising? Marketing?

#auspol

How are regional papers shutting down the responsibility of Google?

#auspol

How is the news media bargaining code going to support small publishers? Hint: it does not.

#auspol

Google & FB will improve media diversity. Yes! Finally someone speaking some sense.

#auspol

According to this senator—the NMBC is correcting a market imbalance in advertising.

You mean the imbalance that has occurred because big media didn’t adapt to the digital landscape?

#auspol

“Legislative change is critical sometimes—but it has to be the *right* legislative change.”

Correct! And the #NMBC is *not* the right legislative change.

#auspol

"The ACCC's own evidence doesn't support conclusion that there is a bargaining power imbalance"

#auspol

Google does not dominate the market. Google only in the new media access value chain 26% of the time.

#auspol

Google is not an unavoidable trading partner for News media.

#auspol

Google is helping lots of news media businesses thrive (Dr. Kelly).

#auspol

"News businesses are not entitled to 100% of the digital advertising market" — Dr. Kelly

#auspol #senateinquiry #NMBC

Having large market power is not prohibited — esp. if gained through competition & being better.

#auspol

Country Press Australia appearing to the senate inquiry now.

#auspol

Representing various country newspaper mastheads. CPA represents 160 independent mastheads.

Consultation for NMBC has been skewed towards large businesses—CPA

#auspol

Printed newspapers are still their primary source of revenue.

#auspol #NBMC

CPA news publications provide hyperlocal voice to regional areas.

#auspol

NMBC Currently rewards large players, not important small players. Will damage media diversity. — CPA

#auspol

Sounds to me like CPA is saying they want a cut of the money from Google/FB too, and they are currently missing out.

#auspol #NMBC

"Should require the content is produced by professionally trained journalists only" — CPA

"Google's success is due to using digital news media content" (paraphrased) CPA.

I reject this premise. Google's success is due to thei quality of their service. News media is low volume, and not a core of their product.

#auspol #NMBC

Seems their argument is that Google should pay to support media, because their media businesses are not viable in the digital world. (Who's fault is that?)

Also shouldn't apply to ABC & SBS. (Because they're not commercial).

#auspol

CPA member business models are not sustainable. (According to CPA).

#auspol

They don't have the same level of print advertising revenue as the once had.

No shit!

Digital platforms are cheaper than digital media (yes).

Side Note: Digital platforms also provide better value for that spend.

#auspol #NMBC

Lots of regional people only get news from their hyper-local news paper.

(Well ask them to pay for it instead of Google).

#auspol

If hyperlocal newspapers are no longer financially viable, they need to look at their business models. Keeping your business viable is not Google/FBs job.

#auspol

Google partner with them & provide income to their businesses. Google leaving would be a concern to their businesses. — CPA

#auspol

Google has been discussing Showcase product with small media orgs.

CPA is not opposed to this product.

#auspol

Google News Showcase should be *included* in code (so additional to paid links/snippets).

UK/French deal is a result of AU code. — CPA (doubtful that that is the case).

#auspol

CPA would also like to reduce the threshold to estimated $150k revenue demonstrated after one quarter of operations.

#auspol

My opinion: Print newspapers are dying with or without the #NMBC. Hyperlocal news needs to adapt to online platforms and/or non-advertising driven revenue models.

Expecting to be able to run your business the same you have historically in the modern world is ridiculous. #auspol

CPA relies on ad revenue and believe Google has (unfairly) taken the advertising revenue they are somehow entitled to.

#auspol

Country Press Australia doesn't want ABC & SBS (taxpayer funded, apparently unaffected commercially by digital platforms) to benefit from the deal.

#auspol

They believe ABC will take some of their share of the Google $

#auspol

My opinion: If hyperlocal news is so important to regional areas, why is it not receiving government support?

Why is it the responsibility of another private company to fund this public service?

#auspol

CPA : $150k minimum to be 'real' journalism in a business. Couldn't employ a journalist with a $75k a year revenue.

#auspol

Code should *only* support commercial journalism. — CPA

(My opinion: this is contradictory to their 'public service' argument to the value of hyperlocal news. Volunteer journalism is valuable too!)

CPA: Most members (all print) *well above* $150k / year.

#auspol #NMBC

CPA doesn't want restriction on the $ from Google being earmarked for public interest journalism only.

#auspol

Sen. Hanson-Young: Should NewsCorp have to show they have used the money from Google to benefit journalism (rather than lining their own pockets.)

#auspol #NMBC

CPA: ABC inclusion will lead to 'unfair' competition in regional areas.

#auspol

CPA: ABC inclusion will reduce the money that local newspapers get from google.

(Apparently ABC is also NOT public interest journalism.)

#auspol

CPA: ABC getting more money will reduce regional Australia media diversity.

#auspol

Australia Institute, Centre for Responsible Technology speaking now in the senate inquiry.

#auspol #NMBC

"Appalled to see the threats from Google & Facebook"

#auspol

Big Tech is a threat to Australian Democracy. He just compared techs actions to Mao.

#auspol

Google & FB terrified of the code because it will call attention to their impact on free media. — AI

#auspol

"Capitulation will be a recognition that big tech is more powerful than our government" — AI

#auspol

Our reliance on google & FB is a national risk to our sovereignty. — AI

#auspol

Not in our national interest to rely on Google. Australia should build their own tools. — AI

(My opinion: We're part of a GLOBAL economy—this sounds like tech isolationism)

#auspol

"Code sets ground rules for a viable public square" — AI

#auspol

Code is only the important first step in getting big tech under control in Australia.

#auspol

Media industry has reached a point where some of their new digital business models are starting to work.

Google & will provide a "ballast" for these businesses. — AI

#auspol

"Code is a necessary first step in provide a well resourced public interest public square" — Centre for Responsible Technology

#auspol

Other search engines will fill the gap. Other search engines/social media will need to be included in the code. CRT

#auspol

Younger generation gets news on instagram, youtube, tiktok (apparently "really scary"). — CRT

#auspol

Sounds to me like Centre for Responsible Technology would like to limit what news Australians can access & on what platforms they can access that on.

#auspol

@sarahinthesen8 "do you agree that the underlying core issue is the value of peoples data and their lack of choice in who controls data?"

#auspol

Centre for Responsible Technology: This won't break the internet because Google/FB has already made sure the internet isn't free & open.

Getting the algorithm data from Google is important.

#auspol

Centre for Responsible Technology: Shocked that FB/Google would remove news & claim news is not central to their business.

#auspol

"Removing news proves that Google sees news as a transaction"

FB = "Cute cats & conspiracy theories" without Aus news media

± Centre for Responsible Technology

#auspol

"All content is not the same" News journalism content is "worth more".

—Centre for Responsible Technology

#auspol

"a Strange Moment" some people opposed *only* because it's going to support NewsCorp/Nine

#auspol

Not about 'old media' not adaptiong. About Google having too much power. Not about media getting left behind.

About consequences of Google having too much control & killing the media sector/media diversity.

— Centre for Responsible Technology

#auspol

Sen. Hanson-Young: Fair to say Google/FB are an essential service?

Centre for Responsible Technology: Made compelling with what appears a 'free' entry point. Withdrawing their business would be hugely disruptive.

#auspol

"outsourced best way to build tech platform for Australia to silicone valley" — Centre for Responsible Technology

#auspol #NMBC

"Businesses premised on extracting our personal information as payment for their services provided is not in public interest of Australians"

— Centre for Responsible Technology

#auspol #NMBC

Solstice Media speaking at #NMBC senate inquiry now.

#auspol

Publisher of Crikey, SA Life & Others.

Supports diversely owned public media.

#auspol

Listened to big media tell govt. that Google/FB steals their content & ad revenue.

Truth is there is no content stealing. Media companies actively provide content because they gain benefit

— Solstice Media

#auspol

Ad revenue not stolen either.

Ad revenue mostly from classifieds has gone to classified websites.

Vast bulk of Google/FB ad revenue doesn't come from News content.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

Google/FB should pay a social licence for collateral damage & drop the lie about 'stealing'.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

#NMBC should support diversity, needs to be more nuanced.

Specific mechanism for smaller publishers to guarantee their fair share.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

Platforms have redline issues—we need to negotiate with the platforms on these points to make a fair code.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

Minor adjustments to the legislation would help platforms be willing to participate & help small media.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

Solstice Media publications are digital only, and advertising funded, successfully.

#auspol

As the code stands now, will benefit Solstice Media but needs to be negotiated so Google & FB don't withdraw.

Losing G/FB makes the code meaningless.

#auspol

Google paying for snippets/links is a global precedent. Clearly this will likely break their business model.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

Legislation needs more clarity. Code needs to be about support for news media—not forcing Google to break their business.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

Arbitration opposed by the code is an obscure one, and might not be the best option to address the power imbalance.

We want Google to support news media.

But they have no idea how much it will cost Google to be involved.

— Solstice Media

#auspol #NMBC

Sen Hanson-Young: MEAA proposed codification revenue collected through code be directed to public interest journalism. Does Solstice Media share this concern?

#auspol

Solstice Media: Yes. Should be accountable that the money is going to journalism.

#auspol

Solstice Media: Very few independent media orgs outside hyperlocal orgs; 150 staff / 40% journalists.

All digital only start ups.

#auspol

Look at the media ecosystem that exists in this country. Does diversity make a difference?

Current code will further consolidate media ownership of big orgs.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

Opportunity for the parliament to do something meaningful about media diversity without endangering big media.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

@sarahinthesen8 "We have a problem with media diversity & this code doesn't address that."

#auspol

There are 50/100 small media orgs who are above $150k threshold so threshold is OK.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

Would not be difficult to incorporate a guideline that applies a formula/percentage to ensure distribution of google $ to reach small players on a needs basis.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

Both Companies of Solstice Media have arrangements for Google News Showcase in place. These are content licensing deals. Done last year.

Currently get 25% of value while waiting for showcase to launch.

— Solstice Media

#auspol

Will that deal be terminated under the code?

Not automatically, no: Solstice Media

#auspol

Solstice Media take content from AAP NewsWire.

Sen. Hanson-Young: Should AAP have ongoing public funding/Additional support?

Solstice Media: Odd that AAP is excluded from the code if the code is designed to support journalism.

#auspol

Does the argument that small media might not get their share hold up to the arbitration process proposed?

Solstice Media: smaller orgs don't have the power of NewsCorp etc;, so it doesn't just depend on negotiation skills. No hints at actual cost or how that will be distributed.

NewsCorp will dominate, like they dominate the entire media landscape.

#auspol

Is the code necessary?

Solstice Media: #NMBC will make a huge difference if framed correctly with emphasis on diversity of ownership (not current form).

#auspol

Solstice Media: more like a social licence because they have not stolen content or advertising. That is a "crazy pretext".

#auspol

Solstice Media: Google/FB to pay a social licence to benefit news media with no influence on output.

Alternatively if there is no public funding, journalism is at risk. If not the code there needs to be government supportive funding.

#auspol

Solstice Media: What we would do is employ more journalists & cover more areas [with the extra funds] not just buy from the AAP.

Machines can't create journalism.

#auspol

Committee is breaking for 1 hour. Will be back at 2pm.

(I'll be back too, because i'm tweeting this as much for my own records of what was said as I am for anyone listening 😀)

Resuming Shortly.

First up is Junkee Media. Their submission was made in combination with oOh!media (billboards).

See their submission no. 8 at aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_…

Their submission is basically that Google has taken too much of the advertising revenue available for other businesses—which has reduced quality & media diversity in Aus.

#auspol

I think it's important to keep in mind that while Junkee produces media (not all news) they are owned by oOh!media, whose primary business is advertising, and who are in competition with Google for businesses ad spends.

And we're back!

#auspol #NMBC

Junkee: Neil Ackland CEO speaking.

Target young Australians for news media.

#auspol

Junkee: We welcome #NMBC to rectify imbalance & offers opportunity for them to create more journalism. Have had a long, productive relationship with Google & FB.

#auspol

Junkee: we rely on both platforms to generate traffic & leverage their audiences. Can't exist without them.

BUT

Now we rely on them for traffic. 75% off traffic from FB/Google.

#auspol

Junkee: Google changing algorithm effects our traffic & creates sensationalism.

(My Opinion: they want the algorithm & the benefits of the platforms because it benefits their business).

#auspol

Junkee: We are concerned about Google leaving.

#auspol

Sen Gallagher: will algorithms shift break you?

Junkee: No, but we have to adapt.

(Welcome to the 21st century. Tech moves fast).

#auspol

Junkee: we rely on big tech algorithms to reach our audience.

[SO DOES EVERYONE ONLINE. MEDIA ISN'T ALONE.]

#auspol

Junkee: Algorithm rewards emotional content.

Sen.: Internet version of the tabloid press.

Junkee: Yes.

#auspol

Junkee: We want income that is not subject to the algorithm.

[My Opinion: Well get off their platforms & create your own]

Risk of Google withdrawing?

Junkee: Yes, either leaving will have a significant impact on reaching our audience. Impact would put pressure on jobs. Might be fatal.

#auspol

Junkee: Not easily able to reposition themselves.

#auspol

Junkee: young people don't buy the paper.

No shit!

#auspol

Junkee: we take the threat of google leaving very seriously. We shouldn't underestimate that.

We need to negotiate a fair & equitable deal to benefit all parties.

#auspol

Can this be achieved without the mandatory code?

Junkee: No comment on what's happening in other countries but the code would be beneficial to Junkee.

#auspol

Interesting to me how no one is addressing their connection to Oooh! Media & billboards yet.

@sarahinthesen8 don't you think this is a relevant factor in their stance?

#auspol

Junkee: fundamental difference between media orgs and might effect advertising funded publishers differently.

#auspol

@sarahinthesen8 : how much consultation has Junkee had with govt.?

Junkee: interested observers, but have had consultation with the ACCC in late stages.

#auspol

Sen. Hanson-Young: Impact of Youtube/Instagram not in the code?

Junkee: Take on notice (to answer privately).

#auspol

Is this code better than nothing?

Junkee: Yes. Supportive of code. Right move forward for industry.

#auspol

Junkee: support 12 month review to see impact on small media players.

#auspol

Sen Hanson-Young: Should there be limitations on how the money can be spent.

Junkee: broadly speaking yes, but not too prescriptive in relation to production/cost.

#auspol

@sarahinthesen8: Junkee is a digital native media co. Witnesses said MSM is frustrated they've been outplayed. What's your response?

Junkee: Levels the playing field for small publishers, we've been responding to change in the industry.

#auspol

That response from Junkee didn't really answer the question imo.

@sarahinthesen8: Junkee traffic comes from FB/Google. Are you seeing demographics of who is accessing your content change (FB old people media)? Are younger audiences accessing through other platforms?

Junkee: Yes. This code gives opportunity to invest in these other platforms because it's high-risk for our business to try a new platform.

#auspol

@sarahinthesen8: Lots of Junkee content is shared/accessed via FB/Google. Were you surprised to here FB say they didn't think News content was valuable to them/their users? Sen. Hanson-Young called this arrogant of FB.

Junkee: Creates FB watch exclusive content (funded by FB). Has added considerable value on both sides.

FB calls it a 'News Feed' [so news must be central]

Overtime the monetisation of our audience has become harder.

Junkee: Can't pinpoint one reason of why people use FB. News is fundamental.

[Disagree]

#auspol

Sen. Hanson-Young: No news, so FB will be fake news & conspiracies. Some will argue this is where it's already got to. Junkee creates content that is both shareable & good quality journalism.

#auspol

Junkee: We're very good at taking information that might be dry for a youth audience and make it interesting.

Without Google/FB would be a loss for young australians ability for accessing news information.

#auspol

Sen. Brag: Why would FB say there was no value in credible news content?

Junkee: No comment

#auspol

Sen: Aren't they paying you for content? Why would they pay for content if it's worthless?

Junkee: We don't know

#auspol

Sen: What does FB buy from Junkee?

Junkee: We create a program of content, (Junkee has control of style, production etc;) & FB underwrote the costs. Negotiation for Season 3 is in limbo.

#auspol

Junkee: From memory FB put out public opportunity for essentially grant money. Other publishers got funding as well.

[So google is already supporting news media, no?]

#auspol

Junkee: Facebook Journalism Project. Globally funds journalism initiatives.

#auspol

Sen.: Re: Google. Effectively said they don't like the code will leave behind $5 Billion revenue & want to use Showcase to pay for journalism. Have you seen Showcase?

Junkee: No.

#auspol

Junkee: we have had early discussion with Google re:News Showcase.

Sen: If they're still in Australia [🙄]

#auspol

Junkee: We do work closely with Google and are in contact with them but have no formal deal.

#auspol

Next up: Dr Belinda Barnet.

#NMBC #auspol

Dr Belinda Barnet
Lecturer - Media @ Swinburne University

#auspol #NMBC

Dr Belinda Barnet:

20 years researching/writing about/making digital media.

One thing to address: Will this legislation break the way the web works?

#auspol

Dr Belinda Barnet: Open web is not what we have anymore. It is controlled by major platforms that trade in your data and their links cost you your data. Not free.

They are the gatekeepers of the internet. Australians don't have a choice.

#auspol

Dr Belinda Barnet: "Facebook is the antithesis of an open web"

#auspol

Dr Belinda Barnet: Google has already broken search.

They charge advertisers based on your data.

Dr Belinda Barnet: Breaking open web is a false premise. What we currently have is not free or equitable. We need to address the power imbalance between these platforms & every other citizen of the web.

#auspol #NMBC

Dr Belinda Barnet: Could remove links from the legislation. So google might *only* show links.

Code won't break anything & will be beneficial to media.

#auspol

Sen. Gallagher: Given the likelihood of code being legislated. What will it do?

Dr Belinda Barnet: This legislation alone won't rescue media but it will contribute to reliable 'fair' revenue stream going forward.

#auspol

Sen: if I don't guard my data, has Google/FB done anything wrong by using it?

Dr Belinda Barnet: Yes, because your data is valuable. It's a natural resource, like oil, that these companies mine to tailor advertising.

#auspol

Sen: if i don't value my data, have they done anything wrong by taking the data I freely give away.

Dr Belinda Barnet: You should be given a choice about whether you will pay with that dat. (See GDPR). In Aus there is no choice given.

#auspol #NMBC

Dr Belinda Barnet: Not all Australians are aware about giving their data to these orgs.

#auspol

Sen: Do you think FB/Google will leave?

Dr Belinda Barnet: Yes. Very unfortunate choice on their part but not for the reasons they have publicly said.

#auspol

Sen: What's the difference between Microsoft/Google.

Dr Belinda Barnet: Microsoft sells an actual product so they don't collect as much data.

#auspol

Dr Belinda Barnet: DuckDuckGo doesn't collect your data so they're a good option.

#auspol

Sen: Do benefits outweight downsides?

Dr Belinda Barnet: Yes

Sen: France/UK Progress or not?

Dr Belinda Barnet: Showcase is a seperate product from search. Is a walled garden presented as alternative to main search.

#auspol

@sarahinthesen8: Internet perceived to be free/open. Is it a case things have changed & people haven't caught up?

Dr Belinda Barnet: World has changed a lot over the last couple of decades. Data is a currency & has allowed G/FB gain monopolies. Like telcos in 20th century

Dr Belinda Barnet: "Govt. needs to mitigate their size & power"

#auspol

Sen. Hanson-Young: Does banning news on FB make FB a platform for fake news?

Dr Belinda Barnet: Yes. We would see an increase in misinformation on FB.

#auspol

Sen: Were you surprised FB said news is of little value to them?

Dr Belinda Barnet: No surprised, but they are being dishonest about their value. Google is also being dishonest with "real value of news" & the value is in the data they collect re: news users.

#auspol

Dr Belinda Barnet: also a cultural value in news content that isn't in other content on FB/Google. Current/fact-checked/reliable. Other content isn't.

#auspol

Sen Hanson-Young: FB under fire for far-right propaganda & conspiracy theories. Can't ban that but can ban news. Why?

Dr Belinda Barnet: FB doesn't want to take responsibility to their content & admit that they're a published because it has legal implications.

#auspol

Sen. Hanson-Young: Code might help media invest in other platforms. Is FB/G real concern they will lose control?

Dr Belinda Barnet: Deeply concerned it will set a global precedent & effect larger markets.

#auspol

Dr Belinda Barnet: prepared to give up $5 billion, to not set a precedent in a larger market.

#auspol

Dr Belinda Barnet: Google Showcase is similar to Apple News. Not part of search.

#auspol

Dr Belinda Barnet: Google prefers that product [Showcase] because they control that platform.

#auspol

Dr Belinda Barnet: Google don't want search product 'contaminated' by legislation.

#auspol

Sen. Hanson Young: So google wants showcase so they can control news media in Australia?

Dr Belinda Barnet: Yes. but in Google's defence if you agreed to Showcase they would include the news media outlets that would benefit from the code.

#auspol

Dr Belinda Barnet: Google News Showcase is NOT going to be on the homepage of Google

[I don't think Google has asserted/released anything saying this, this is only Dr Belinda Barnet understanding of Googles as yet un-launched product]

10 minute break now. Then we'll be hearing from The Treasury; Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications.

#auspol #newsmediabargainingcode #NMBC

Would like to take a second to point out that today we have heard from anti-tech campaigners, publications set to benefit from the code, advertising companies, and an academic talking about user data (which isn't addressed by the #NMBC).

And now the govt. is up next.

We're Back.

Megan Quinn Speaking.

Has tabled full opening statement.

#NMBC is designed to support sustainability of news media sector.

#auspol

Quinn: Would see digital platforms 'sharing' the benefits they get from news media.

[Still basing this on the 'stolen content'/'stolen ads' lie I see]

Basically saying this code is similar to other competition law codes.

[This just shows me that they do not understand how digital is different to other industries and the old rules won't work here.]

Treasurer will decide who is a digital platform service.

#auspol

So, we'll give govt. control on who to punish in the digital media landscape AND who to reward.

#auspol #NMBC

Digital platforms can negotiate to exclude links. Digital platforms will pay lump sums.

#auspol

If deals can't be reached, the code includes arbitration methods. Must consider benefit both parties obtain & the power imbalance.

#auspol

Large news co will consolidate negotiations. Small businesses should too.

#auspol

Sen Gallagher: Google & FB said it isn't workable? What is govt. opinion?

Ms Quinn: Code is workable. There is still discussion, re:practical implementation.

#auspol

Sen Gallagher: If it goes through (probably will) what are the risks?

Ms Quinn: Intention is to ensure sustainable media sector. We're working through it.

#auspol

Sen Gallagher: Will FB/Google's threats (if they go ahead) what will happen?

Ms Quinn: People will use substitute services.

#auspol

Sen: Is there any risk modelling?

Ms Quinn: We don't have enough information. Different parts of the sector will be effected. Depends on what sector your in for the impact. Don't know, essentially.

#auspol

Sen: Have you done research on worst case scenario?

Ms Quinn: Yes. (But won't answer the questions). Analysis is ongoing.

#auspol

Sen: What about the impact on revenue of media businesses?

Ms Quinn: Google's revenue share from Aus is small.

#auspol

Sen: What would the impact on small business be?

Ms Quinn: Would depend ing the availability of substitutes & where users go. Investigation is ongoing

#auspol

Sen: Have you locked at the impact on small business who invest 100's thousands on Google? Have you modelled it?

Ms Quinn: Depends on individual businesses. No modelling.

#auspol

Sen: Do the benefits outweigh the downside? Can you point us to empirical evidence of that? Have you got data monetary to prove this?

Ms Quinn: Points to the ACCC report. Have none of their own data [treasury]

#auspol

Sen: Are duckduckgo or bing adequate alternatives?

Ms Quinn: No comment on suitability.

#auspol

Sen: Have you quantified the benefit.

Ms Quinn: No.

#auspol

Mr. Dixon: Outer limit on negotiation timeframe: 45 business days for arbiter to make a ruling. Up to 100 business days

#auspol

Sen: 12 month review may not have any results to look at?

Ms Quinn: Yes. But we'll look at other things.

#auspol

Ms Quinn: employment benefits will be substantial according to media.

Sen: Can legislation be challenged under US free trade?

Ms Quinn: Yes, it could be. Treasury would be the lead agency in any case.

#auspol

Sen: What research do you do?

Ms Quinn: ACCC inquiry is the data we have used.

#auspol

Sen: Does UK/France show news media is making progess without a mandatory code?

Ms Quinn: legal action has been required to support negotiations there too.

#auspoI

Sen: Are we an outlier or ahead of the world on these issues?

Ms. Quinn: We are world leaders in sparking the discussion and moving forward.

#auspol

Sen: Why did you say AAP could register & AAP couldn't?

Ms Quinn: AAP doesn't provide retail news to end users. If they publish retail news then they will be able to be party to the code. They will benefit indirectly, potentially.

#auspol

Sen: What is the govt. doing to ensure we have a strong news wire?

: Govt will grant AAP $5 million to support regional media services.

#auspol

Sen: What efforts is the govt. going to foster news diversity in regional Australia?

: COVID response package; PING (grants based);

#auspol

Sen: Govt media spend, is that complicit in taking money from print media to digital media too?

: No Comment from treasury.

#auspol

Sen. Gallagher: "Are we trying to save the titanic that's sinking?"

#auspol

@sarahinthesen8: Is there a contingency plan if Google removes their service?

Ms Quinn: We planned the code & thought about all aspects & have give our final deliberation.

#auspol

@sarahinthesen8: Yes but what if Google removes their service? Is there a contingency plan? Does the government have a plan that includes Bing?

Sen: Are you taking that on notice because you do not know? the answer.

Ms Quinn: [Not answering]

#auspol

@sarahinthesen8: So you are aware that a plan exists?

Ms Quinn: [talking around the questions & refusing to answer the question].

Sen. Hanson-Young: Does it exist though?

Ms Quinn: What do you consider as a plan?

#auspol

Sen Hanson-Young: What will happen if Google pulls out. It is not a hypothetical. The treasurer said there are alternatives. So there must be a plan or is the treasurer free-wheeling.

Ms Quinn: They are hypothetical.

#auspol

Sen: Has the department given the minister a briefing on alternatives to Facebook?

Ms Quinn: Take that on notice

#auspol

Sen: Are you concerned about the impact of fake news if FB blocks real news?

Ms Quinn: I'll have to take that on notice.

#auspol

Sen: Have you given any advice on impacts of FB blocking news?

Ms Sullivan: No. There is draft disinformation code coming.

#auspol

Sen: When can we see the draft disinformation code?

Ms Sullivan: Late February.

#auspol

Sen: has anyone from gov. asked for advice after FB revealed after MPs had had content blocked?

Ms Sullivan: Not that i'm aware of.

#auspol

Sen: Is there further work being done on guidelines to calculate the value of the news content?

Ms Quinn: Code provides for ACCC to create guidance on this. We expect they will. There are minimum standards of info from digital platforms given to media to negotiate on this.

Sen: When do we expect the additional guidelines?

Ms Quinn: Not until after the legislation is passed.

#auspol

Sen: as the dept. provided financial advice re: increased taxation on media outlets?

Ms Quinn: Taken on notice. Likely not quantified because actual remuneration is uncertain.

#auspol

Sen: Are you concerned that Google/FB have structured their financial arrangements to avoid tax?

Ms Quinn: Take it on notice.

#auspol

Sen: has the department done any work on a tax for FB & Google & Tech companies as opposed to the code?

Ms Quinn: ACCC looked into different arrangements & their recommendation was a code. We would have provided general advice.

#auspol

Sen Bragg: What does bargaining in good faith require?

Ms Quinn: Providing the information as requested & open & clear communication.

#auspol

Sen: Why final offer arbitration?

Ms Quinn: Designed to bring process to conclusion in an expedited way. Partly about making sure that parties provide information i na clear way & meet in the middle.

#auspol

Sen: in terms of the arbitration process, does it require digital platforms to pay for links?

Ms Quinn: There is no requirement & lump sum payments will be the norm.

#auspol

Sen: will the code require digital platforms to reveal algorithms?

Ms Quinn: No IP will have to be transferred from one party to another, and no transfer of privacy data.

#auspol

Sen: does the code impose a tax?

Ms Quinn: no.

#auspol

Sen: Fb said no value in news on their platform, but they're paying some media outlets. Do you have a sense of whether there is value in public interest journalism?

Ms Quinn: Digital platforms service in part relies on news. What value from the relationship is contested.

Sen: But why would FB pay for news content if it's not valuable?

Ms Quinn: Businesses pay for value, but I'm Not an expert on FB business strategy.

[Talking about funding for AAP / news outlets during COVID again]

Sen: Have you seen Google News Showcase concept?

We're aware but we have not seen the product, but we have had briefings with Google outlining it, but we are not familiar with it.

#auspol

Ms Quinn: have been invited to explore it further with Google, last week.

#auspol #NMBC

Sen Patrick: Re: Google leaving country, when did you first know of that?

Ms Quinn: Flagged concerns in July & changes to offering was a consideration then

#auspol

Ms Quinn: December they articulated more clearly.

Google has been clear throughout they would like to stay with a compromise deal.
#auspol

Read that. The govt. knew Google leaving was a possibility in JULY last year. & Again in December.

Sen: Based on exit of Google, will that impact Aus businesses?

Ms Quinn: Yes, it will.

#auspol

Sen: Seems irresponsible to not have given advice to the treasurer on that impact?

Ms Quinn: There are ongoing discussion.

#auspol #NMBC

Sen: If google exits, how much control does treasury have on an orderly exit?

Ms Quinn: Take on notice. Will have to fulfil contracts with businesses.

#auspol

Ms Quinn: Code doesn't prevent withdrawal of services. We can't force Google to provide a service.

#auspol

Sen: Can we add to the code options to place obligations on a company designated as a digital media org re:withdrawing?

Ms Quinn: Take on notice, but it would be difficult to force someone to be obliged to provide a service.

#auspol

Sen: Processes similar to receivership etc;

#auspol

Sen: US govt submission to the enquiry have serious concerns about the proposed code. Exclusively targets US countries without establishing violation of law or market failure. Are they happy now? Have you addressed the US concerns?

#auspol

Ms Quinn: Many of the issues have been addressed with US trade authorities. Partly explaining our legal system differences to address their concerns. Conversations are ongoing.

#auspol

Sen: Has it been looked at from an ISDS perspective?

Ms Quinn: Yes.

#auspol

Sen: Re: tax evasion. Google advertising revenue goes to singapore.

Ms Quinn: take it on notice.

Sen: Singapore has ISDS provisions with Aus. Isn't there a risk of ISDS actions re: Google with their entity in Google. Could be billions of dollars risk.

Ms Quinn: All legal implications have been explored. Can't discuss because of legal privilege.

#auspol

Sen: is there contemplation of litigation from Google at this point?

Ms Quinn: Not at this stage.

#auspol

Sen Patrick: There is nothing that would stop Google initiating ISDS application?

[Arguing about whether this is breaching legal privilege]

Sen: this might be a multi-billion dollar risk to the Australian economy.

#auspol

Sen: regarding ISDS, there is very little that could stop someone initiating a case.

Ms Quinn: Trade law matters better directed to trade dept.

Sen: But this is a multi-billion dollar risk to Australia.

#auspol

Ms Quinn: All legal considerations have been covered in the drafting/planning/research.

#auspol

Sen: You're happy to leave the aus taxpayer hanging?

Ms Quinn: All legal concerns have been part of the policy considerations.

Sen: is there are risk of litigation?

Ms Quinn: Yes, both domestic & international.

#auspol

Sen: Common law definitions of Good faith. Does that including spying like Frydenburg in Timor?

Ms Quinn: Outside our department.

Diversity is not the purpose of the code, but is there a mechanism to support smaller operators?

Ms Quinn: Designed to support sustainability, and power imbalance. It has been a consideration in developing the code.

#auspol

There has been discussion of small business investment to date with Google (e.g. reviews). Has there been consideration to what an alternative service provider might be able to do in that space?

Ms Quinn: I don't understand the question.

#auspol

Sen: has this been discussed with alternative providers?

Ms Quinn: Its a hypothetical situation. that depends on the contractual arrangements google has with the individual business.

#auspol

Sen: Can you provide examples of other codes and where they have been tested in favour of the govt.

Ms Quinn: Taken on notice.

#auspol

Ms Quinn: having the code changes the market without having the code be invoked in arbitration. The existence of the code is enough to force negotiation.

#auspol

Ms Quinn: The threat of arbitration supports coming to a resolution.

#auspol

And that's it for this hearing today! No we wait for a senate committee report. Expected on the 12 February 2021