Thread by @MForstater

Debate in the House of Lords on amendment 87B starting

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/4a…

Baroness Alica Kennedy - this bill is about gathering evidence about abuse against women and girls

Sexual harassment in public spaces - it is mainly not reported.

Rape charges are falling

Crimes disproportionately effecting women and carried out by men

"Gender" perceived to be the motivation for high percentage of hate crime

or does she mean sex?

Some say wait for the law commission.

We don't have to wait for this reviews - we can measure where crime is targeted at women. We can do it now.

Is it a crime?
Yes - sexual assault, abuse and violence.

The issue is not whether someone was born a woman or "becomes one"

This is the language used by the law commission ....

If we are not recording crime targeted at women how can we tackle violence against women and girls?

Lord Young - quoting Lord Russell in committee "given the range and depth of work undertaken by the Law Commission" we should wait. Domestic Abuse Commissioner supports this Bill.

Suggests sending messages to police force's to trial this

Ideological misogyny - hate motivated by "gender" is in a 1/3rd of all hate crimes

(or is it sex!)

Lord Russell - one week is a long time in politics. 30 women killed by men in the past 10 weeks.

Paying tribute to police forces recording incidents of misogyny as perceived by women.

Lord Russell talking about women reporting being the victim of sexual assault:

Women worrying whether they will be believed.
Putting themselves through that over and over.
Toxic culture of misogyny and objectifying women in some parts of the police

Claire Fox - a lot of interest in this Bill. NGOs focused on the need to act now. We are told now is the time to change.

But there is a lot of smoke and mirrors here.
When there is something as brutal as Sarah Everhard's murder we want to act.

But here in this house we need cool heads.
Misogyny of hatred of women
Are the police institutionally misogynist. I don't recognise this vision. From wolf whistling to terrorism. I dont think its helpful to tack it on.

Misogyny is too simple. Opinions are not enough. Collecting data is important - but if you want accurate data "hate" is impossible to define. What the victim perceives. Not a reliable way to collect accurate data. Subjective.

Encourage individuals to attribute motives to others. Leads to "thought crime" and labelling of speech as prejudice. Chilling free speech.

This bill is a deception. It does not mention "women" - the language used is very purposeful. Promoted as being about women, but in practice talks about "a particular sex or gender".

Gender is not defined in UK law. Subjective and malleable.
Sex is defined in law
ORS said sex and gender should not be conflated.
Quoting from @sexmattersorg - undermines accurate information being accrued

Police need a clear data field for the sex of victims and perpetrators.

This is misogyny in plain sight. Not naming women in this Bill.

Women could be named as violent hate criminal if they misgender?

We must not be pressurised to criminalise women with gender critical views.

Now Paddick. Baroness Fox questioned whether trivial offences will be kidnapped and the development of 'thought police'.

Crimes should be recorded as misogynistic if the motivation is sex and gender

I want misogyny to be treated as a hate crime coherently - with support and as an aggravating factor. The law commission is looking at that. The last thing i want is for the govt to say to them 'relax' we did that in the DA bill

Hate crimes target a vulnerable group. Women are not a minority. But they are targeted because they are vulnerable. Women are physically vulnerable to male violence. Men abuse women because they can. That makes women vulnerable to abuse because they are women.

I am concerned about violence towards women and girls on the streets.

But this bill is about domestic abuse. Males underreport domestic abuse.

Associating DA with misogyny could make that worse.

In DA it is difficult to differentiate misogyny from the power in a relationship - cooercive control.

DA is serious enough on its own.

I am not yet convinced that the downsides of this amendment have been adequately addressed - could not vote for this amendment

If an offender believes the victim was a woman, then it should be recorded as an attack on a woman.

The use of the term sex on its own may exclude some offences.

Any attacker motivated by hatred of women. If that is what they thought then it should be recorded as misogyny

Now Baroness Bennett (Green Party Natalie Bennett) Citizens UK role - hate crimes survey linked to gender

(what is gender??) .... they mean sex.

In response to Lady Fox - real world experience does not suggest difficulties.

We have and endemic disease of misogyny. Thats the only way women and girls can be safe

Next: Tanni Grey Thompson. Tired and appalled by how women are treated in society.

But this bill is complex.

Lady Fox has given me much to think about

Both men and women are affected by domestic violence
There is only one place in the bill where "female" is mentioned. We should take care with it.
I was told disability was too complex to be here.
This bill is not the place to deal with hate crimes

This is about counting.
In this amendment "gender" has been added. It is not defined in law
It takes away from the clarity of clause 73
It could undermine the single use of the word female in the bill
Sex is adequate and defined in law

Law commission draws on ONS in setting out what is meant by sex and gender -

Pannick says it is unwise to legislation
In Scotland they removed gender from forensic medicine to allow women to be examined by a female doctor

I would be interested in the DA Commissioner thinks
Concern about "gender" here - t will prevent clarity about sex in female only services
We must take misogyny and violence seriously. It is every single day.
Address it in VAWG strategy not this last minute amendment

Lord Kennedy - I think this bill is a step forward. Women are more likely to experience severe abuse

This amendment will help the Law Commission's review - will give it data

I concur with comments of Lord Young of Cookham on sex and gender.
Dont agree with Claire Fox. Not an issue of free speech.
Labour benches will support this bill. hoping Baroness Williams will support

Baroness Williams - a thoughtful debate. The collection of data could add to our understanding of hate crime against women. We are more than willing to engage on data collection. Enables us to find solutions.

Agree that we shouldn't react in a kneejerk way, but i have given this issue - we need to do more to keep women safe from harassment, abuse and violence.

Will publish new VAWG strategy by the summer (please contribute to the consultation).

We are updating Hate Crime action plan - via the law Commission - mentions "sex" , "gender" and "age" as protected characteristics.

The review identified potential gaps to support a consistent approach. They considered the question of "sex" or "gender" or "misogyny. Its complex

It mustn't create a hierarchy of harm in domestic violence.
The law itself must be coherent. There may need to be carve outs. The Law Commission are still working through it. Before we make long term decisions we should wait for the outcome of the Law Commission's review.

Section 44 already allows the Home Secretary to require police to provide statistics.

The amendment isn't needed. We do agree that data can be helpful. Some police forces already collecting it.

We will ask police forces to record crimes of violence where v perceives it as motivated by hostility based on their sex

We will start experimental collection of data this autumn.
The details still to be worked thru. Not exclude gender, but the details still being worked thru

Lord Phil asks a question - will this follow the Nottingham approach - which focused on women?

Not introduce "gender"

Baroness Williams - i cant confirm what will be there in conclusion , but i will consult.

Lord Russell of Liverpool - the ways in which the different police forces are recording "misogyny" are all slightly different - your department will look at how police forces are collecting this.

And work with the Law Commission - and come out with a clarification to police

Baroness Williams - i confirm that. Consistency is what we need.

Baroness Kennedy thanks Lords and Stella Creasy and Jess Phillips.

This data will add to the Law Commission's review

This is a first step to record data. Data shines a light on an issue and allows it to be assessed.

Agree with Tanni- women are tired.

Thanks Baroness Williams for move for police to record hostility based on sex (...and gender) as Lord Russell confirmed (?) Withdrawn amendment