Thread by @doratki

Vaxxed covering day 4 of Epic v Apple trial as the designated pool reporter. It’s the first time I’ve been in court since March 13, 2020(!). Plz send tips on how to wear a mask without fogging up glasses.

Before calling the first witness, Epic's counsel asked to admit about 20 docs and "there's been an attempt to keep records out of this case" and this is another example of it. Apple's atty says the request is a 'doc dump' and shouldn't be admitted.

Judge Gonzalez Rogers "I have been quite generous. i have not sealed very much but i’m not going to enter evidence in an improper way." She added "We aren’t just going to put something out there on the internet which is what you guys are doing at the end of trial."

Epic's calls head of business strategy Thomas Ko as the first witness who joined Epic in 2019 after working at Samsung on Samsung Pay. He says Epic has grown from accepting 10 currencies to 42 since 2019 and it doesn't do its own payment processing but he says its secure.

Ko said Epic doesn't process payment transactions and it launched Project Liberty, which he said was an attempt to "give customers choices where options aren’t available." Epic solicited RFPs from different pps and as a result Epic's pps reduced their fees.

On cross, Apple's counsel asked Ko: "Did you know Project Liberty would involve deceiving apple?"

Ko replied that "I don’t know what description of deceiving what that means," but he said project liberty provided solutions.

Apple atty asked Ko if he's aware Epic has had issues with improperly collecting personal info about children under the age of 13.

Ko: "I don’t recall," he said adding, "I was part of the attorney-privileged team handling a request from the FTC." The courtroom was then sealed.

Apple App Store VP Matt Fischer is next up. Epic's counsel is beginning his examination by pointing to a series of his emails and docs. One 2018 email reads "there is an epidemic of fraudulent apps in the app store" that attempt to defraud people out of money.

Another says "a seemingly benign general app then becomes evil." Many of these docs/emails are confidential and aren't being admitted for the truth of the matter. (It's a painfully slow/boring process listening to the atty admitting each into the record, cuz we can't see them.)

Fischer just said for the 2nd time the pages in his exhibit binders were stuck together. The judge stopped him and said there was no question pending. He explained he couldn't see the exhibit. The judge: "Sorry, I thought you were just trying to talk. That's not how this works."

Epic asked Fischer a series of q's about whether he knows of studies that look at whether consumers switch from using iOS to Android due to rising prices or costs of apps. He replied that he's not aware of any of those studies.

He also said he isn't aware of the average amount of money a consumer spends on apps purchased through the App Store in the average lifespan of an iPhone. "No and I wouldn’t know how to go about that type of analysis or study," he said

Before taking a break, the judge noted that she's admitted certain biz records into the record, and if they're not, she wants to be clear on why she's admitting them.

Judge on doc admission: "All these things are being published, they're all out there, and non lawyers don’t understand the difference between being admitted for the truth versus being admitted for some other purpose like notice. So I want to nail that down."

Back from the break, Epic's counsel points to comments that Fischer's team received at Apple from App Store app developers surveyed who criticize Apple for having allegedly unfair policies and being a "joke."

Devs comments include: App Store is "plagued with outdated low quality apps," "For a developer it’s a nightmare," "We release every week, when our app is rejected for review entirely unrelated to the changes we made its disruptive and throws off our cadence."

More comments: "App reviewers are arbitrary and unpredictable & are not consistent among competing apps," "Allow developers to issue refunds this is beyond frustrating to us." "Stop playing favorites, start applying the same rules to all apps and start eliminating junk apps."

Epic points to a 2018 email that said Hulu is "part of the set of whitelisted developers with access to subscription cancel/refund API."

Epic: "Whitelisted developers get to do things others don’t correct?"

Fischer replies yes, but "I certainly don't use that particular word."

Fischer acknowledged that Apple identifies "rip off" apps and removes them and Apple has been fighting fraud (ie. money laundering/bogus refund bids) in the App Store. "I don't know about since the beginning, but we've been combating and fighting fraud for a long time, yes."

Apple's counsel is cross examining Fischer, who says since Apple launched the App Store in 2008 it's grown from 500 apps to more than 200 million apps and the user interface has evolved "substantially."

Fischer says he's not responsible for the App Store's security, app review, fraud or privacy and he isn't aware of a "master plan" at Apple to lock in developers into Apple's payment system.

Atty: Would you be aware of a plan if one existed?

Fischer: Yes

Apple App Store VP Matt Fischer says he was "blindsided" by Epic Games' CEO Tim Sweeney's email to Apple last summer announcing Epic's plan to cut Apple out of payments in Fortnite on iPhone and iPad.

We had a lunch break and are back on redirect. Epic's atty is pressing Fischer on the Marshmello and Travis Scott in-game Fortnite shows that Apple cross-promoted. Epic's atty is clarifying that Marshmello is a DJ not a band.

Fischer: "That’s my understanding of what he does."

Epic's counsel points out that Apple leaked Marshmello's set list before the in-game Fortnite concert, which is why Epic gave Apple short notice about the Travis Scott show. Fischer says he doesn't recall hearing about Apple's alleged Marshmello playlist "leak."

Epic's counsel wants to go through app developer surveys. Apple's counsel interrupts saying "we think this whole line of questioning is objectionable." The judge overruled the objection.