Thread by @thedextriarchy

Day 4 of Epic v. Apple starts in 5 minutes! Expecting testimony from Epic business strategy exec Thomas Ko, then Apple App Store VP Matthew Fischer and marketing director Trystan Kosmynka. My wrap-ups from Day 3 below theverge.com/2021/5/5/22421…

https://twitter.com/thedextriarchy/status/1389955322102652931

We’re starting with some pre-testimony discussion about records being entered into the court.

“I need to understand what the basis is for why you’re trying to admit things in the record,” judge says. Heated discussion with lawyers.

Epic now calling Thomas Ko to the stand. They are approaching the witness to give him a binder. Really feel robbed of seeing these binders.

Epic counsel Brent Byars now doing examination of Ko. Asking him to describe career before Epic — was a banker at Citibank, then moved to Samsung Pay and Samsung Galaxy Store management.

Samsung had previously asked for some documents to be sealed, btw, including Samsung Galaxy Store details. Ko then helped launch Fortnite on the store and moved to Epic. “What they tried to do [were] very noble things, and I wanted to help."

They’re talking about Epic’s payment solution, which is available on PC and Android. Makes the solution available to developers on Epic Games Store for in-app purchases, but doesn’t require them to use it.

What was Ko’s initial assessment of the Epic payment system? “Our solutions were good in the countries of the US and Western Europe, but outside of those regions we didn’t have a lot of solutions.” Since 2019 that’s changed — from 10 to 42 local currencies.

“I believe that we have made lots of improvements, but still there is more room to improve.” Still trying to make improvements — gives example of Epic Wallet to store money.

Epic is planning “smart pricing solutions” that protect developers from “unpredicted volatility of foreign currencies” by warning developers about potential shifts.

Epic uses credit card processors in US and Paypal and regional providers internationally to process transactions. Ko is discussing exactly why this is preferable. Also emphasizes Epic never gets credit card numbers from customers.

Has the payment solution ever been available on iOS?

Yes, Ko says.

When?

“During Project Liberty."

“From your perspective, what was the purpose of Project Liberty?

“Project Liberty is an attempt to provide developers choices for payment solutions and bring that benefit to customers in a platform where that choice is not available."

Ko is explaining why Epic knows its payment system is reliable and safe. For context, Apple says allowing non-Apple in-app purchase providers could compromise the iPhone’s security and user experience.

Ko says he’s in charge of selecting payment service providers. “You look at all aspects, from technical sophistication, user experiences … service level commitments.” Latter is “company guaranteeing 24/7/365 operational working conditions.” Epic considers cost, too.

2020, payment processing averaged around 4.2% cost for Epic payments worldwide. In the US, around 3.5%. It negotiates with providers as well. (Again for context: Epic wants to show it can offer lower prices than Apple’s locked-in alternative.)

Taking a look at an email from PayPal responding to some questions evaluating it. PayPal wants some portions of this sealed, we’re moving to another doc, but there’s some confusion about whether Epic actually submitted it to the judge. “Just keep going,” judge says.

The doc is Epic evaluating three different payment processors for user experience and other factors.

We’re moving to cross-examination with Apple, who starts with Ko becoming involved in Project Liberty.

“Did you know that as part of Project Liberty, Epic would be involved in deceiving Apple in some way?” lawyer asks. “We were supplying payment solutions,” says Ko. Lawyer pushes, asks if he knew it would be “put on the Apple platform without Apple’s permission.”

“I knew my payment solutions would be used on Project Liberty, and how the communications went on were beyond my responsibility,” says Ko. Lawyer asks one more time. “I wasn’t aware of it,” Ko says.

Lawyer notes in 2019 Ko said Apple and Google had excellent (lawyer claims the “only”) full-service solutions for payment processing. Ko concurs.

Lawyer points to a message where Ko wrote that there was “really no truly comprehensive payment solution that does everything needed for a game company.” This was around the time Ko was working on Epic’s payment solution.

“I think there were other companies that were able to process games payments at the time.” But Apple and Google had such dominance that they had more comprehensive solutions, Ko says.

“Very few games” on the Epic Games Store offer in-app payments, including through Epic, lawyer says. “Very few companies actually took you up on that option."

Now lawyer is asking about whether Ko handles data privacy, and whether Epic performs this service. Ko says it’s managed by infosec in a different division of Epic. Lawyer asks: “Part of your duty does not include the safeguarding of customer privacy?” “That’s correct."

“Has Epic ever had issues with improperly collecting or using customer personal information in the past?” / “I don’t believe so,” Ko says.

And have they ever had issues with collecting or improperly using info from children under 13? “I don’t recall."

The courtroom is being sealed to talk about this issue — so unfortunately we’re not going to get an answer, it looks like. It shouldn’t take too long, judge says.

hello 30-second synthpop loop, my old enemy, we meet again

oh my god no, it matches almost perfectly

https://twitter.com/tomwarren/status/1390335329756925957

Press line just came back, mid-argument between the judge and Epic’s lawyers.

They’re talking about the process of submitting depositions, I don’t know enough about court procedure to be confident in explaining what’s happening.

someone is definitely handing a binder to someone

“There are 50 binders apiece for you,” says judge. “We don’t take things you said 2 or 3 days ago and put them in a current binder.”

i’d say the verge should sell a BINDERS t-shirt but i feel like that would be interpreted somewhat differently than i intend

Epic is calling Matt Fischer, VP of the App Store and our first Apple exec.

“I’m responsible for the App Store business at Apple.” Joined in 2010 — very early in the App Store’s life. He reports to Phil Schiller and previously reported to Eddy Cue, two of the big names in this trial.

We’re looking at a document about Apple’s policy against using an independent system for IAP. “While we have some outliers in the store right now, I cannot guarantee that we will allow them to continue,” he noted at the time.

Another document, an email noting that “Matt feels extremely strong about not featuring our competitors on the App Store.” Fischer notes that he said in deposition that’s misleading.

So after a couple of days focused on Epic, payments, and gaming, we’re delving more into the workings of the App Store itself today.

A different message notes an “epidemic of fraudulent apps” in the App Store. Epic, overall, has been arguing that the App Store review process is extremely shallow. It’s being issued “for the fact that it was said,” so it’s not ncecessarily true.

Judge is skeptical of why Epic wants to submit something that’s not necessarily true. Epic says it wants to establish the “state of mind” that there was an impression that a fraud epidemic existed and Apple was aware of it. So claim appears to be from a third party to Apple.

An August 2013 document now, Fischer confirming he received it. Subject line is this Ars Technica article arstechnica.com/information-te…

Okay we’re stuck in a little more Epic document hell about what is confidential and is being properly entered. We’re getting on track again though, hopefully.

None of this stuff is getting read out loud — it’s confidential, lawyer is just pointing to paragraph numbers.

“Might I approach, your honor, and take away these binders that have become excessive?”

“You’ve never sideloaded an app onto an iPhone, have you?” Lawyer asks. Fischer says no.

Has anyone from your family done it? No.

you wouldn’t sideload an app

The followup to this is basically a question about whether anybody Fischer knows at Apple has sideloaded an app and firsthand experienced a security issue because of it. Answer is no.

“Is the App Store an example of an app that contains numerous other apps?” Yes, Fischer says. Fischer’s now being asked to introduce who Steve Jobs was.

They were separate questions, no to both

https://twitter.com/LittleSleepyFox/status/1390344852320235526

We’re talking about a 2018 message Fischer sent to his team quoting from a transcript of a Steve Jobs interview. It’s the “we love free apps” statement from this 2008 interview: wsj.com/articles/the-m…

“We don’t expect this to be a big profit generator,” Jobs said at the time, of the App Store. "Who knows? Maybe it’ll be a billion dollar marketplace at some point in time. This doesn’t happen very often.” Said he’d "never seen anything like” that in his career.

Fischer is being asked to acknowledge a presentation from May 2018. We’re still going through documents that aren’t being explained/quoted out loud, unfortunately. Another doc seems to involve whether a specific amount related to “billing” is correct.

“Did there come a time when the App Store began to provide the ability to buy search advertising?”

“There was a time when Apple gave developers the ability to purchase advertising within the App Store, yes.” Fischer says.

Lawyer’s describing this — broadly speaking, these kinds of services let people buy paid search results for specific queries. This can result in, say, Competitor Y buying an ad that lets it top the search results when consumers search for Original App X.

If this seems familiar you might remember the time Basecamp ran a “we don’t want to buy this ad” campaign on its own Google Search results cnbc.com/2019/09/04/goo…

Are you aware of a case where someone has left Apple and gone to Android because there was an increase in the cost/price of an app or in-app purchases? No, Fischer says. And has anybody at Apple studied whether this is true? “I’m not aware of a study like that, no."

This was in deposition. Also, “you’re not aware of how much money the average consumer spends on apps” over the lifecycle of a phone? No. Epic has been very critical of the (alleged) fact that Apple hasn’t run more analysis of user behavior.

“You think of Apple’s product as a whole as part of an ecosystem, correct? And part of that ecosystem is the operating system that powers the devices.” lawyer asks.

Asking about Apple's Executive Review Board now. Fischer was a member, so was Phil Schiller, Eddy Cue, and others.

“Phil leads the conversations,” Fischer says. The ERB’s purpose is to review applications and discuss policy. It also discusses potential guideline changes.

Judge is being irritated at Epic’s lawyer again — refusing to let them submit documents to put online without a clear justification. “Non-lawyers don’t understand the difference between something being admitted for its truth and being admitted for some other evidentiary purpose."

Epic is not having a great day with the judge so far.

Epic’s lawyer is making a veiled accusation that the judge is holding Epic to a double standard and letting Apple get away with similar document submissions.

We’re going to take a 15-minute break now.

judge rogers till 1:35

https://twitter.com/SHODAN_BOT/status/1390355570717184003

If you want an overview of what’s going on with Epic v. Apple this week, I have an interview with @TheTakeaway on the trial and why it matters wnycstudios.org/podcasts/takea…

We’re back, admitting more evidence. A reference to a developer saying that “search in the App Store is really rough around the edges.” Part of a developer feedback survey. Also “the App Store is plagued with outdated, low-quality apps. … It’s time Apple raised the bar again."

A developer is leveling accusations of “staff playing favorites,” asking to “start applying the same rules to all apps, start eliminating the junk apps."

You only seem to focus apps that “spend and earn the most money,” says one dev. There are lots of apps that don’t get attention because they focus on paying staff and doing other things besides monetization and marketing. “As a developer, it’s a nightmare."

Another dev calls the review process “extremely disruptive,” cites apps getting rejected for no reason. “The app reviewers are sometimes arbitrary and unpredictable, the app reviewers are not consistent among competing apps."

“Apple has given in to payola."

Epic lawyer is reading more negative comments from devs about the App Store, like someone calling the in-app payments API “a joke” or referring to “your awful policies” on refunds.

Lawyer is asking Fischer to agree that there are “several forms of fraud” linked to apps that have been in the App Store, including financial fraud, fraud around ratings, and fraud around customer reviews.

Issues went back “the beginning” of the store, says lawyer – Fischer agrees they’ve been fighting fraud for “a long time."

devs outside Epic have some deep criticism of Apple, though we haven’t gotten names during testimony today. i.e.

https://twitter.com/nickstatt/status/1390363821391372289

We’re looking at an App Store weekly scorecard for 2016. Lawyer notes most regions sit in 60-70% range for trusted accounts, according to report. 45-55% range for billing from trusted accounts.

Fischer doesn’t know exact definition of a “trusted account,” so we don’t get much elaboration. Lawyer cites apps considered to be “ripoffs.” Fischer says "we would never approve an app in app review if we knew it was a ripoff,” though some were found after the fact.

Lawyer notes Apple doesn’t permit stores in the App Store, like Epic Games Store. Lawyer brings up Apple Arcade — “Apple’s own gaming app.” Fischer breaks in: “No, Apple Arcade is a feature of the app store and a game subscription service … it’s not a separate app."

“[lightly paraphrased] You don’t think the Apple Arcade, that has games in it, competes with other stores that have games in them?”

“When you word it like that,” yes, Fischer supposes it does.

Epic’s lawyer asks if it’s Fischer’s understanding that Google Stadia has mostly shut down, Fischer demurs and says he’s heard it closed down an internal dev studio. Second time in this trial a lawyer has basically assumed Stadia is dead.

Lawyer gets Fischer to confirm Apple has received and rejected submissions for alternative payment processing systems.

PayPal, Amazon Pay, Braintree get mentioned alongside credit card companies. Lawyer asks if Apple has ever done any studies about “any security issues” if a gaming company were to use a non-Apple processing method. “I’m not familiar with any study like that, no."

Epic is basically contrasting this with Apple’s statement that third-party processing would create a security hazard. We’re going down the same line of questioning for privacy — Apple hasn’t done studies on this either, Fischer says.

Has there been any study comparing Apple’s payment service to “any” third-party competitor? No, Fischer says.

“Developers have expressed directly to you that they think the 30% commission is too high, correct?” lawyer asks.

Some apps sell “person to person experiences” rather than digital ones, and those can use different payment processing methods. Lawyer asks: is there any evidence *those* are less safe and secure than Apple’s payments? Fischer hasn’t seen studies.

ooh Apple lawyer is objecting that a filing is “just a repetition of what some Apple blogger says"

“I don’t know how you expect me to admit it for the state of mind of a third party that’s not here,” judge says to Epic. Appears to agree with Apple.

People have been filing and nuking documents from the shared public Box all day, incidentally. Related to the ongoing drama about filings.

Fischer is getting cross-examined by an Apple lawyer now. They’re starting again with Fischer’s role at the App Store. Outlining the scope of his responsibilities.

Delineating that the App Store for iPad and iPhone “have many similarities” but are not totally cross-compatible. “The catalogs have some similarities but also some differences and also the user interface of the iPad is optimized a bit differently."

Fischer is asked to define the App Store: “The App Store is a curated store where Apple works with developers to sell and distribute their apps to customers in 175 countries and regions around the world. And each and every one of those countries has their own storefront."

"We work really hard to make the App Store a marketplace that is attractive to customers as well as developers.”

“Epic’s counsel said that Apple came up with a master plan in 2010 to change the way the App Store would operate to lock users and developers into the App Store ecosystem. … From 2010 to the present, have you ever heard of such a plan?” lawyer asks. Epic counsel objects.

Apple’s lawyer has to rephrase — removes reference to the opening statement.

“Have you ever heard of a plan to change how the App Store operates to lock users and developers into the App Store ecosystem?”

“No,” Fischer says.

Fischer repeats that the App Store tries hard to attract developers and consumers, and he’s “not sure” how he’d execute such a plan if it existed.

Fischer asked how they find apps to feature. “My editorial team really needs to be on top of what developers are working on,” Fischer says. Also mentions web portal where “developers of all shapes and sizes” can contact editorial team.

Fischer on discoverability: “We love helping our customers discover great apps and games that can help them get the most out of their Apple devices, and we also love helping developers reach more users and help grow their business. Both sides of that coin are really important."

“Sorry you’re gonna have to deal with another big binder, Mr. Fischer."

exact brand may vary

https://twitter.com/AybeflAyinghigh/status/1390377242069512198

Fischer’s getting to give positive stories about devs to counter Epic’s negative ones, and Apple lawyer is asking if Fischer’s looked at rival app stores and their editorial/marketing strategies for developers.

“I might be biased, but I certainly think what we do is incredibly unique and I certainly have not seen any marketplace that distributes apps or games do what we’re doing in terms of providing marketing and editorial support like this to developers.” And Fischer notes it’s free.

Lawyer is asking Fischer about Epic’s history in the App Store. Starting with the launch of Infinity Blade, which was one of the first big games on the App Store. Series was sadly pulled from the store in 2018 theverge.com/2018/12/10/181…

General line of questioning about the long, fairly close working relationship between Epic and Apple prior to Project Liberty. (Tim Cook, presumably sometime: ‘et tu, sweeney?’)

can’t wait for Epic v. Apple biopic The Two Tims

Fischer says Epic asked Apple about changing the guidelines to allow Fortnite in-app gifting. Apple decided to update the guidelines and change them for all developers. “When we make a change, wae want to make a change that would apply equally to all developers."

Fischer says Apple was excited about Fortnite’s Travis Scott concert because it was “a really cool concept,” and “we dropped everything we were doing and scrambled” to do a promotion on the Today and Games tabs.

Lawyer’s citing congenial emails between Apple/Epic where Epic thanks them for the promotion.

“When was the last time you interacted with anybody from Epic?”

Fischer says June of 2020. After the Travis Scott concert, they talked about bringing teams together around WWDC.

Now asking about Fischer’s reaction to the hotfix: “I was blindsided."

Are the rules for developers different for different developers? “The App Store review guidelines apply equally to all developers,” Fischer says. Nobody gets a special “dispensation” or “special” deal.

“Do whitelisted developers get to do what other developers don’t get to do?” No, says Fischer.

Fischer says from time to time, it wants to test a feature with a small group before rolling it out to all developers.

We’re going back to a comment about the App Store being “plagued” with scams. The line above that is “although I gave the App Store a high rating, there are a few pitfalls which Apple can address."

Apple lawyer is addressing the email where someone says Fischer feels “strongly” about not featuring competitors on the App Store. “That is definitely not accurate, and she is very misinformed, and I followed up with her manager,” says Fischer.

“We have promoted apps that are competitive to Apple apps since before I joined the App Store team in 2010, and we continue to not only distribute but to feature and promote apps that are competitive to Apple apps in the store. We do this all the time.”

Fischer cites Apple streaming services versus other streaming TV services that it also promotes.

On in-app purchases: “IAP in its simplest form is a way to sell digital content within an app. But actually it’s a lot more complicated than that.” It ”enables the safe and frictionless delivery of digital goods from a developer to a user.” Allows things like parental controls.

Fischer says he and others are “guilty” of “conflating IAP with Apple’s commission.” They’re two separate things, he says.

“I would say for the first 10 years or so of the App Store” it was “pretty black and white” about what Apple believed it deserved a commission for.

For physical goods and services, Apple didn’t earn a commission because ”we ultimately didn’t know if the physical good or service would be delivered to the end user.” With digital purchases, we “feel very justified that we earned the commission,” because it can verify delivery.

It says then “hybrid subscriptions” blended physical and digital subscriptions, started showing up in 2018. “We were interally just trying to wrap our head around what this means, and how can we support these developers with what we want to do while having clear guidance?"

Justification for things like Lyft/Uber is pretty interesting

https://twitter.com/nickstatt/status/1390388575406108672

Cross-examination is over. Epic is back.

“If there was anything that was truly major going on in the app store,” he’d expect the ERB would be made aware of it, right? “Correct.” Lawyer is tying that back to the “master plan” for the App Store that was referred to earlier.

Lawyer notes that he joined the team in 2010. But the store started in 2008, so there may have been a plan earlier he didn’t know about. “For the type of plan my counsel describes, I imagine I would be aware of that plan,” Fischer says.

“I mean, you don’t know what you don’t know for the portion of the job where you weren’t even there,” lawyer says.

We’re going to take a break and come back at 4:15ET. More Fischer, then maybe we’ll get to Apple marketing director Trystan Kosmynka today too. Epic general manager Steven Allison is a long shot after that, but possible.

We’re back to Epic questioning Fischer, talking about a promotion for Fortnite holiday promotion. She’s saying Apple “inadvertently leaked the IP assets for that promotion.” The artwork for the holiday outfit was apparently leaked in advance of the promotion.

Also referencing the thread about Hulu being part of a “whitelist” for Apple. We are now holding for a second while they sort through some binders.

Epic lawyer saying that multiple developers are listed as whitelisted — not totally clear what this practically looks like, haven’t seen the doc.

And now we’re talking about the Marshmello concert. “You’re aware, aren’t you, that Apple created a playlist of the Marshmello music played” during the concert in Fortnite? “I was so excited about this that I brought in the Apple Music team” with Epic’s permission, he says.

Now to Travis Scott. Lawyer is establishing that Fischer had already known who Marshmello and Travis Scott were before the Fortnite concert. Lawyer is taking issue with Fischer saying Epic didn’t give them much notice for the shows.

“Before the Marshmello event occurred, Apple Music had actually leaked the playlist … that was the reason why Epic was concerned with giving Apple too much notice about the Travis Scott concert."

Now we’re going back to more developer surveys. “You don’t recall seeing any of the developer surveys that were included in the Apple binder,” lawyer notes. Fischer concurs.

Epic lawyer going back to the sentence about Fischer feeling strongly about not featuring competing apps. “You are aware that Apple is under investigation from the European Union about self-preferencing apps on the App Store?”

Fischer says he’s aware but “not up to speed."

Fischer’s testimony is done. Epic is now calling Trystan Kosmynka, senior director of marketing at Apple.

Kosmynka is going through his history with Apple. He became director of App Review in 2016, promoted to senior director in 2017.

Kosmynka was also part of the ERB, which sets policy for the App Store.

Lawyer asks Kosmynka about the guidelines. “The only way to get a consumer app on the iPhone is the iOS App Store.” Exceptions are the enterprise program and Testflight.

“We love third-party apps as customers on the App Store,” Kosmynka notes.

Talking about web/native apps again. “Web apps go beyond use in an individual browser. They can be saved to the Home Screen,” Kosmynka says. “So from a consumer perspective, if you launch Twitter on native and Twitter as a web app, those are going to be very similar experiences."

Lawyer notes there are different APIs available to web and native apps. And things like push notifications and ARKit aren’t available on Webkit. This was discussed in depth yesterday with an Epic witness.

Let’s talk about app review. “Apple requires apps to be developed with updated SDK versions, right?” / “We do require that apps have a minimum version of a particular SDK.”

Kosmynka says that developers are told “months and months” in advance about SDK updates.

Epic lawyer is talking about the extent to which app review includes actually executing the app to test for malicious code. Lawyer says it’s a third-party system, Kosmynka says no.

Established that the technology was developed by SourceDNA, a team that was acquired by Apple.

Describing how app review process. “We have a combination of hourly and salaried employees.” Standard day is 10 hours, lawyer says, Kosmynka disagrees and says there are 100 reviewers in Ireland with an 8-hour day.

We are in an *extremely* long digression about the precise working conditions of App Store review. They reference a CNBC article that I think may be this one: cnbc.com/2019/06/21/how…

Not “working conditions” in an actually detailed way, just a very long argument about how many hours a day they work, so Epic lawyer can calculate that reviewers spend an average of 6 to 12 minutes reviewing an app.

Says there are sometimes concerns about the size of a backlog and developers have complained about how long it took for app review. Is it fair to say it’s a “frequent” complaint, the lawyer says? “No, I don’t believe it is,” says Kosmynka.

“Do you recall an app called Tribe?"

one data point here re: how long review takes

https://twitter.com/pjtnt11/status/1390413611382738944

Describing app being “hidden” for being a store within a store, but it’s been live since 2015. So it was on the store for about 3 years before the ERB ruling. “You’re not aware of any specific security issues that had occurred with Tribe” when it was in the store?

“I’m not aware of any issue outside this particular guideline issue,” Kosmynka says. Referring to an unspecified guideline. Lawyer repeats the question for all stores-within-stores. Any issues? “I do recall some. I recall safety and security issues."

Tribe described being “shocked” by the decision.

Lawyer is saying that for a period, when customers or developers or press told developers about something noncompliant, Apple would refer to it as “Under The Bus”, as in “that customer was throwing an app under the bus.”

So there was a review process known as “UTB” when customers, other developers, or press reported an app. Kosmynka says “until that process was renamed, yes.” It was later changed to ARC, or App Review Compliance. Renamed “prior to 2016,” says Kosmynka.

Raising the example of Roblox, which Epic lawyer refers to as a game with a collection of games in it. “I don’t see it that way,” says Kosmynka.

“Does Roblox follow our guidelines?” email asked. Reviewer says they’ll investigate potential store-within-store violation, comes back with results.

“I was surprised this was approved by ERB,” Kosmynka wrote when it was approved. “At this time, I only had the context of this email” though, not knowledge of Roblox itself.

“What does this app do?” Judge asks.

“Roblox is an app where users create a profile, hang out with their friends, and they can join in these experiences that I would look at as content…"

Kosmynka: "If you think of a game or app, games are incredibly dynamic. Games have a beginning and end, there’s challenges in place. I look at the experiences that are in Roblox similar to the experiences in Minecraft.” Which are also not games, apparently.

"They have maps. They have worlds. they have boundaries in terms of what they are capable of.”

To recap, Apple’s definition of a game:

- A beginning
- An end
- Challenges

Interestingly the game mode that made Fortnite a thing is essentially an outgrowth of a genre that was created in Minecraft, the “hunger games server."

Just to be clear, the argument here is that experiences *inside* Roblox (which IIRC there are actual game studios devoted to building) are not games, because otherwise Roblox could be arguably similar to the Epic Games Store in being a store inside the App Store.

“Isn’t it true that Apple has specifically terminated since 2017 thousands of developers on the basis that they incorporated a 3rd-party payment method into their app?” Kosmynka says he’d disagree with terminating them “specifically” because of that.

We’re moving to cross-examination of Kosmynka by Apple.

We’re looking back at more documents. The “specifically terminated since 2017” number that Epic mentioned.

“Our process when we find hidden features whether it be hidden payments [and others] are such that we try to work with the developers to get it corrected.” So it would have been “more than the simple presence of a 3rd-party payment” that resulted in termination.

Now we’re talking about potential review mistakes. Mentioning Tribe. “Are there occasions on which there are mistakes in the app review process?” / “It’s a human process. We do make mistakes. But we certainly try to rectify those mistakes when we learn of them."

“I think there’s a large variety of different types of mistakes.” Here, it’s that the app was in violation for a while without Apple catching it, and if Apple had caught Tribe when it was first put up, it would have been a better experience for everyone, Kosmynka says.

Citing a weekly period in which 5,461 apps were approved, 11,296 apps were rejected, in November 2019.

I would really like to know which witnesses had a definition of “game” prepared before testimony (Tim Sweeney *definitely* did) and who is just desperately making something up on the fly.

Kosmynka says one way they look at mistakes is the number of appeals they receive — less than 1% of rejections are appealed, and most of the rejections are upheld.

“I think the number of mistakes are a small fraction of the overall effectiveness of the process."

Kosmynka is going through his history with iOS — he helped build Testflight, which was submitted to the App Store and rejected as a native app. It continued to develop as a full-screen webapp.

Kosmynka says there were “a couple of things” they wanted from a native app, but there was “a path to get those things” through a web app. (Apple later acquired TestFlight.)

We have 2 minutes left, but we’re wrapping up for the day. Kosmynka will return tomorrow.

The judge is talking about confidentiality issues that came up today. These may be an issue tomorrow too. Hurray!

Judge Rogers is so done with this. And so am I. I’ll be back tomorrow for Day 5.