Thread by @MSS3RosaFerreum

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Oh when you back pedaled when you realized you argued against men protesting to be able to defend their innocence and asking women not to make false allegations? You seem to not to read the academic papers you cite as you don’t realize what is in them. Let’s go down memory lane.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat The paper @MichaelGLFlood presents complains that MRAs in Canada are illegitimately challenging the feminists gains regarding the "affirmative consent" standard for rape. Let's go point for point and see what is reasonable.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat "Canada has moved towards an affirmative consent standard…. There is no implied consent in Canadian law; silence and ambiguity cannot be taken as indicating agreement to engage in sex; and consent must be active throughout a sexual encounter." @MichaelGLFlood's paper, p. 66.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Bill C-51 altered the Criminal Code as follows:

Canadian Criminal Code § 276(2): "…evidence shall not be adduced by or on behalf of the accused that the complainant has engaged in sexual activity other than the sexual activity that forms the subject-matter of the charge…."

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Canadian Criminal Code § 276(4): "…sexual activity includes any communication made for a sexual purpose or whose content is of a sexual nature."

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat If you record consent, each consent recording constitutes a separate sex act different from the sex act that is charged as a sexual assault (read: rape). Thus, each such consent recording requires special permission to be admitted. This made innocence harder to prove in Canada.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Canadian Criminal Code § 273.2(b): "the accused believed that the complainant consented to the activity…, where … the accused did not take reasonable steps, in the circumstances known to the accused at the time, to ascertain that the complainant was consenting."

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Canadian Criminal Code § 273.2(c): "the accused believed that the complainant consented to the activity…, where … there is no evidence that the complainant’s voluntary agreement to the activity was affirmatively expressed by words or actively expressed by conduct."

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat When one needs to prove that one sought and got affirmative consent by law in order to show that the sex one engaged in wasn't rape, but the evidence of that consent also can be excluded as a matter of law, I, too, would be concerned with the possibility of any false accusations.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat In such a legal climate where one might reasonably fear that one would be legally forbidden from demonstrating one's innocence, it's entirely reasonable to campaign for women to not falsely accuse men of rape (even if such false accusations were rare since there isn't a remedy).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat According to @MichaelGLFlood's paper, MRAs in Canada took the entirely reasonable action of encouraging women to not falsely accuse men of rape (using the same visual style that feminists used to encourage men not to rape). If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat The only reason that @MichaelGLFlood would offer this academic diatribe (since there's no quantitative evidence therein) as evidence that MRAs are wrong is that @MichaelGLFlood is perfectly okay with sending innocent men to prison as sexual offenders with no defense.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Here is citation to the paper @MichaelGLFlood cited:

xyonline.net/sites/xyonline…

Here is the citation to the Canada's Criminal Code (with Bill C-51 already incorporated):

laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Here is @MichaelGLFlood’s original tweet:

https://twitter.com/MichaelGLFlood/status/1160178905430409221

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Since Dr. @MichaelGLFlood feels it is an "extraordinary" "leap to some fanciful idea that [he] think[s] 'innocent men should be punished,'" let's go through what Dr. @MichaelGLFlood wrote and what is written in the cited article in order to evaluate if it is "some fanciful idea."

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat (Citations for the above: archive.ph/85Ajz | archive.ph/v0IDA | archive.ph/ekEP8)

In his original post, @MichaelGLFlood wrote that "[m]en’s rights advocates are part of a backlash against efforts to stop sexual violence" (archive.ph/ekEP8).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat In support thereof, @MichaelGLFlood cites to "Sexual Violence in the ‘Manosphere’: Antifeminist Men’s Rights Discourses on Rape" by Lise Gotell and Emily Dutton and published in 2016 in the _International Journal for Crime, Justice and Social Democracy_ (xyonline.net/sites/xyonline…).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat "In this paper, [the authors] explore the role that antifeminist men’s rights activism (MRA[]) is playing in a contemporary backlash to feminist anti‐rape activism" (xyonline.net/sites/xyonline…, p. 66).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat "While these highly misogynist discourses are challenging … feminist research, [the authors] contend that it is important to engage as there is a real danger that MRA claims could come to define the popular conversation about sexual violence" (xyonline.net/sites/xyonline…, p. 66).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Remember, Dr. @MichaelGLFlood wrote that MRAs "portray men as the victims of … feminism" (archive.ph/ekEP8).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat The authors "did not come to this research through scholarly interest. Instead, when MRAs sought to undermine a local anti‐sexual violence campaign, this project found" the authors (xyonline.net/sites/xyonline…, p. 66).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat "Edmonton has been home to an award‐winning campaign against sexual assault, ‘Don’t be THAT Guy’[, that] … used social marketing directed at men as a tool of sexual violence prevention" (xyonline.net/sites/xyonline…, p. 66).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat "In July 2013, Men’s Rights Edmonton (MRE)… created a copycat poster that distorted one of… [the] original ads[ e]ntitled ‘Don’t be THAT Girl’" (xyonline.net/sites/xyonline…, p. 66).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat "Largely as a result of feminist law reform and litigation, Canada has… an affirmative consent standard…. [with] no implied consent…; silence and ambiguity cannot… indicat[e] agreement to engage in sex; and consent must be active throughout…" (xyonline.net/sites/xyonline…, p.66).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Let's look at the Canadian affirmative consent standard more closely. Since the law was the result of feminist advocacy and Dr. @MichaelGLFlood wrote that "[m]en’s rights advocates … portray men as the victims of … feminism" (archive.ph/ekEP8).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Canadian Criminal Code § 273.2(b): "the accused believed that the complainant consented to the activity…, where … the accused did not take reasonable steps, in the circumstances known to the accused at the time, to ascertain that the complainant was consenting."

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Canadian Criminal Code § 273.2(c): "the accused believed that the complainant consented to the activity…, where … there is no evidence that the complainant’s voluntary agreement to the activity was affirmatively expressed by words or actively expressed by conduct."

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Canadian Criminal Code § 276(2): "…evidence shall not be adduced by or on behalf of the accused that the complainant has engaged in sexual activity other than the sexual activity that forms the subject-matter of the charge…."

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat The relevant part of Canada's Criminal Code can be found here:

laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat If you record consent to sex, each consent recording constitutes a separate sex act different from the sex act that is charged as sexual assault (read: rape).

Thus, each such consent recording requires special permission to be admitted (making innocence harder to prove).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat When one needs to prove that one sought and got affirmative consent by law in order to show that the sex one engaged in wasn't rape, but the evidence of that consent can also be excluded as a matter of law, the possibility of any false accusations should concern everyone.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat In such a legal climate where one might reasonably fear that one would be legally forbidden from demonstrating one's innocence, it's entirely reasonable to campaign for women to not falsely accuse men of rape (even if such false accusations were rare since there isn't a remedy).

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat In presenting the article by Lise Gotell and Emily Dutton to support his contentions about "[m]en’s rights advocates," @MichaelGLFlood presents the idea that campaigning against false rape allegations is acting "against efforts to stop sexual violence," which is nonsensical.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat This is made worse by the Canadian context where proving one's innocence is not reasonably possible.

So feminists who brag that they succeeded in making men's innocence almost impossible to prove is NOT evidence of "men as the victims of … feminism," Dr. @MichaelGLFlood?

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat Is fighting against false allegations in a legal jurisdiction that nearly prohibits the use of evidence of innocence wrong, Dr. @MichaelGLFlood?

The article you cite supporting your contention that MRAs are acting against the interests of rape accusers suggests it is wrong.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat In such a context, how would anyone NOT conclude that you, Dr. @MichaelGLFlood, are in favor of punishing the innocent accused when you posted that MRAs are acting against rape accusers and support it with an article arguing that fighting false accusations is wrong.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat @threadreaderapp, please unroll.

@MichaelGLFlood @eccentrikhat @threader_app, please compile.