So an anonymous Twitter person DM'd me this morning with a scenario. "I work at a large cloud company that makes inscrutable naming decisions, and I have an offer elsewhere for 35% more. Should I take it?"
Oh good heavens yes. A thread...
Oh good heavens yes. A thread...
I hopped on a call with them and proceeded to firehose a bunch of career advice in their direction. I took a few notes and here's the gist of it.
No one is going to have your interests first and foremost except for you. You owe your employer a duty of care, and a duty of confidentiality, but you don't owe them loyalty.
"My manager has really gone to bat for me, and I've been promoted. Isn't this screwing them over?"
Okay. Assume you decline the offer and stay put. Your manager gives their notice three weeks from now. Now what?
Secure your own mask before assisting others.
Okay. Assume you decline the offer and stay put. Your manager gives their notice three weeks from now. Now what?
Secure your own mask before assisting others.
"The new company specializes in THING. Won't I get pigeonholed?"
The T-shaped engineer is great. Go broad, but then deep in one specific area. With time, that deep area will shift. Deep expertise stands out.
The T-shaped engineer is great. Go broad, but then deep in one specific area. With time, that deep area will shift. Deep expertise stands out.
"What if I get a counter-offer that matches the new gig?"
Don't accept it. Calling the new prospective employer to rescind your acceptance burns reputation; don't do it lightly. Further note that you had to get another offer to be paid your market rate.
Don't accept it. Calling the new prospective employer to rescind your acceptance burns reputation; don't do it lightly. Further note that you had to get another offer to be paid your market rate.
"What about the risk of the new company being crap? I like my current role and team."
Where's the risk? You went out, interviewed, and landed this offer. You can do it again. Make sure you have sufficient runway to weather a couple of months of job search as your hedge.
Where's the risk? You went out, interviewed, and landed this offer. You can do it again. Make sure you have sufficient runway to weather a couple of months of job search as your hedge.
"Should I tell my manager / team where I'm going when they ask?"
If your current company has a history of enforcing non-compete agreements? FUCK no. It's not their business. Further, don't announce or update LinkedIn for a month or three. There's no upside and lots of down.
If your current company has a history of enforcing non-compete agreements? FUCK no. It's not their business. Further, don't announce or update LinkedIn for a month or three. There's no upside and lots of down.
"Should I negotiate the offer?"
Always. fearlesssalarynegotiation.com is a great read and has a bunch of templates. Companies that rescind offers because you negotiated are either trash fires, or your idea of "negotiating" is what the rest of us call "astonishingly unprofessional."
Always. fearlesssalarynegotiation.com is a great read and has a bunch of templates. Companies that rescind offers because you negotiated are either trash fires, or your idea of "negotiating" is what the rest of us call "astonishingly unprofessional."
"But if I stay here I can get promoted in a couple of years."
Or you can leave, get more experience / money / perspective working elsewhere, and possibly boomerang at a higher job level. (This person is very early career, for clarity.)
Or you can leave, get more experience / money / perspective working elsewhere, and possibly boomerang at a higher job level. (This person is very early career, for clarity.)
Think about why you interviewed elsewhere. It's unlikely the answer is simply "money" but if it is, that is PERFECTLY okay.
"I don't like the work culture" doesn't magically get fixed if you get a raise and a promotion.
"I don't like the work culture" doesn't magically get fixed if you get a raise and a promotion.
Have a ten year plan for your career. It'll be laughably inaccurate: according to my old one, in the next ~2 years I should be a COO / VP type at a Fortune 500, or close to it.
I am not that–but the plan kept me moving, and that uncovered new directions that led me here instead.
I am not that–but the plan kept me moving, and that uncovered new directions that led me here instead.
"What if the new workplace is utter trash?"
My friends there report that it's very much not. But if it is? You have a cloud company that's bad at naming things on your résumé, an ability to interview well, and a giant talent shortage on your side. I'll take that bet.
My friends there report that it's very much not. But if it is? You have a cloud company that's bad at naming things on your résumé, an ability to interview well, and a giant talent shortage on your side. I'll take that bet.
This person found the new role via a recruiter doing cold outreach.
That's awesome if it works for you; I don't have a high school diploma so that's out for me. I like having trusted people in the industry introduce / advocate for me. I do this frequently for folks.
That's awesome if it works for you; I don't have a high school diploma so that's out for me. I like having trusted people in the industry introduce / advocate for me. I do this frequently for folks.
A ten year plan is hard to turn into actionable next steps, so break it down.
Ignore the next job; what's the job after that? Once you have an idea, it shapes what your next job should be. Have a direction in mind!
Ignore the next job; what's the job after that? Once you have an idea, it shapes what your next job should be. Have a direction in mind!
Talk to people who are doing the role you aspire to be doing in the future; get their advice.
Some folks are easier to get to than others. How did I get time with COOs at giant companies? Well you could try starting a ridiculous podcast, right @spoonen?
lastweekinaws.com/podcast/scream…
Some folks are easier to get to than others. How did I get time with COOs at giant companies? Well you could try starting a ridiculous podcast, right @spoonen?
lastweekinaws.com/podcast/scream…
Keep two lists.
One is "people I would love to work with again."
The other is "I will actively avoid companies that employ this person."
The second should be short.
One is "people I would love to work with again."
The other is "I will actively avoid companies that employ this person."
The second should be short.
Career ladders are something of a brass ring. "Do X, Y, and Z to get promoted to the next level" keeps you from pestering your manager about getting promoted every 20 minutes, for one.
It also helps keep you from remembering that "SDE III" is MEANINGLESS externally.
It also helps keep you from remembering that "SDE III" is MEANINGLESS externally.
Do not love your company, because it cannot love you back. You are more than your job.
To use a somewhat blunt example: imagine someone who has a RedHat tattoo getting fired for performance a year or two later. No judgement, but also not for me at all.
To use a somewhat blunt example: imagine someone who has a RedHat tattoo getting fired for performance a year or two later. No judgement, but also not for me at all.
"I'm in my early 20s; I don't really know what I want to do long term."
I'm 39. Neither do I. It's okay.
I'm 39. Neither do I. It's okay.
Conversations like this one are why I keep my DMs open. It's surprisingly uncommon for junior people to message me out of the blue with questions like this; I wish it happened more often.
I will now answer questions from the rest of you all. Hit me!
I will now answer questions from the rest of you all. Hit me!
Precisely. You don't want to find twenty years from now that the only job you're REALLY qualified for is the one that just laid you off.
https://twitter.com/SamOnTwittter/status/1436138382908788736?s=20
My life would have been very different if I'd just once had a boss who'd done that for me. Not all advice applies to all people in all situations; this is a nuanced situation.
https://twitter.com/paulwberg/status/1436138309844025364?s=20
"One day you have a surprise meeting with your manager and someone from HR whom you've never met before, they don't offer you coffee, and now it's your former company" is always on the table. Plan accordingly.
https://twitter.com/mj_potatoes/status/1436137463504781324?s=20
"He's talking about us.😠" --@awscloud, @googlecloud, @azure, @salesforce
"He's talking about us!😀🎉👏💯" --@ibmcloud, @rackspace
"He's talking about us!😀🎉👏💯" --@ibmcloud, @rackspace
https://twitter.com/IsForAt/status/1436130360987832321?s=20
Always a good tip. If you have that clause in yours, make them formally request it, and be vocal about what's going on. Alternately if you're more politically astute, tell me about it and I will anonymize it and shout it from the rooftops.
https://twitter.com/skandhurkat/status/1436140478857035814?s=20
Update your résumé quarterly. See what bullet points you've added in the last 90 days, and plan what you want to add in the next 90.
Or don't touch it for six years and completely forget what you worked on years 2-4. Doh.
Or don't touch it for six years and completely forget what you worked on years 2-4. Doh.
https://twitter.com/neil_h_watson/status/1436140380806950916?s=20
"It's very important to demonstrate consistency and not job-hop" insists the manager of a team with 80% annual turnover.
Reasonable people can in fact disagree, and that's just fine. Find what's right for YOU, not what's right for me.
https://twitter.com/polotek/status/1436144143785345035?s=20
Informal performance discussions with the résumé update every 90-180 days. The downside to asking about their plans after this job is that it becomes incumbent upon you to help them grow to get there.
I'll take that option every time.
I'll take that option every time.
https://twitter.com/JadedSE/status/1436144107663999007?s=20
Yes, it's hard to handle employee churn as a manager. It's partially why managers get paid what they do. Empathy is great, but don't let it tempt you into self sacrifice.
https://twitter.com/calavera/status/1436147942465814537?s=20
Practice interviewing. The phrase is "I'm not actively looking to leave, but I'm always willing to entertain conversations." You get interview experience and just maybe an eye-popping offer that no one would fault you for taking.
https://twitter.com/toolazytofail1/status/1436135934051880960?s=20
"What do I want to do next" is always the preferred question over "who will pay me to do that thing." I'm a huge fan of doing "half step" job changes that get you from where you are towards where you want to go, that have a foot in both worlds.
https://twitter.com/EquusNimbus/status/1436150602787065861?s=20
Completely true to the first part, aspirationally true to the second.
There are exceptions to every piece of advice. Run ideas past people you trust when it comes to momentous changes.
(I started the call with "this is my opinion, it may be wrong.")
There are exceptions to every piece of advice. Run ideas past people you trust when it comes to momentous changes.
(I started the call with "this is my opinion, it may be wrong.")
https://twitter.com/polotek/status/1436144892137259026?s=20
It is ALWAYS okay to stay. I won't think less of you! If I did, who cares what I think anyway?
https://twitter.com/polotek/status/1436151718669008912?s=20
This is a risk. I view it as interview practice, for one. And I also view it as "community service." They won't pay people more until people reject their lowball offers, is my thinking.
In CA they're required to give you a salary range, FYI.
In CA they're required to give you a salary range, FYI.
https://twitter.com/_brentstrong_/status/1436152225236197377?s=20
It can be hard to tell; everyone's on their best behavior in an interview. I like to ask questions about what stressful situations they've dealt with recently, and dig in a bit. "Can't talk to the team" has a lot of potential reasons; some fine, some bad.
https://twitter.com/shldmdn/status/1436152263907713028?s=20
I agree with this sentiment. It's why I turned down an offer at AWS years ago (lastweekinaws.com/blog/why-i-tur…).
The way Amazon's noncompete is structured can be construed to apply to almost every company out there. "Don't ever work for Amazon" is tough advice.
The way Amazon's noncompete is structured can be construed to apply to almost every company out there. "Don't ever work for Amazon" is tough advice.
https://twitter.com/GarrittyOf/status/1436155949606129669?s=20
You can ask for absolutely anything. The reason I defer to fearlesssalarynegotiation.com is that it's fraught with bias, edge cases, and misunderstandings. Josh is an expert; if I were negotiating an offer I would almost certainly pay him to help me negotiate.
https://twitter.com/novelistparty/status/1436156509788913695?s=20
I fear so. For many of us with ADHD, it shorthands to many managers as "bad employees." I'm sincere when I say that I do what I do now because I didn't see another viable path open to me.
https://twitter.com/KenButler12/status/1436157613104893953?s=20
A number of folks are bringing this up. To be clear: the person asking was very adept at interviewing. If they were not, I'd have taken a different tack.
No advice is universal!
No advice is universal!
https://twitter.com/timkinnane/status/1436158651568308244?s=20
Exactly. *THIS* is the role of the manager. "What if the org blocks their fixing comp?" Well then it's not super likely that they're being paid market rate either!
You pay market rate for the talent you hire, whether you want to or not.
You pay market rate for the talent you hire, whether you want to or not.
https://twitter.com/lgarvey/status/1436166068741894154?s=20
A couple of managerial types are apparently unaware that I too am a hiring manager. I have conversations like this thread with my staff from time to time. It can make for challenging hiring / retention, but my soul is not for sale.
duckbillgroup.com/careers/
duckbillgroup.com/careers/
Someone just DM’d me asking how much a consultation with me on this stuff costs.
The same cost it always is: someday when you’re older and wiser you have to pay it forward by helping out people who are early career themselves. I’m only where I am because people helped me.
The same cost it always is: someday when you’re older and wiser you have to pay it forward by helping out people who are early career themselves. I’m only where I am because people helped me.
...and to close this thread, the person DM'd me this morning. She has accepted the new offer; final number is 54% above her current compensation. 👏
I love watching people succeed where I abysmally failed in my career.
I love watching people succeed where I abysmally failed in my career.
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