Thread by @ciananbrennan

.@welfare_ie is up before PAC at present. Lots to talk about, there'll probably be quite a bit about bogus self employment, or false self employment as the Dept's sec gen describes it. Watch it here: oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-…

This story very well may come up too: irishexaminer.com/news/arid-4076…

John McKeon giving his opening statement

McKeon and @ImeldaMunster have long interaction on bogus self employment. Sec gen denies that his dept has responsibility for determining employment status. "There are 3 bodies, we determine in terms of social insurance. We can't do it alone, that can lead to confusion"

He states that neither DSP nor Revenue classed couriers as being self-employed 24 years ago. "I can't speak for Revenue," he says repeatedly. Asked does his own Dept use test cases the answer is "no deputy"

When Munster raises and quotes multiple on-the-record statements regarding DSP using test case, McKeon replies "you have to define what a test case is". He says that the Dept "long before my time" looked at a number of cases to match up the criteria applied by the courts...

... as to what is employed or self-employed. They came up with five tests which are still used in application to each case individually, he says. "If you want to call that a test case, then yes we did," he says

McKeon says "it's just nonsense" to say that all couriers are deemed to be self-employed. When told that Revenue have confirmed same, he repeats "I cannot speak for Revenue". "If Revenue use that criteria then I suspect that is the case". This is all fairly dizzying

.@mattcarthy asks about the fact the #PSC project's costs in 2019 jumped by €30m in a recent cost benefit analysis. We covered that here irishexaminer.com/news/arid-4075…

McKeon says "it's not comparing like with like". Says that VAT was included in the recent cost benefit analysis in order to take the "conservative approach". He says this was done even tho VAT "is not actually a cost" as "the Govt pays VAT to itself"

Should be said that is not my understanding of how VAT works, you can't have a 'free cost' like that. The State has precedent with this, in that it presumes State land used for a project is seen to be 'free'. That is not the case in practice, everything has a cost

.@CathMurphyTD discussing story re DSP's electricity spend jumping by €500k because the office PCs were all left on to facilitate remote administration by workers at home

This story: irishexaminer.com/news/arid-4076…

McKeon replies that "we've since got secure laptops which does away with this need". They've bought 4,000 such laptops, he says, and office PCs are no longer being left on at all times

Regarding the issue of cyber security in terms of a situation with PCs all being left on (think of the HSE mandating that all workers keep their laptops powered off after the May cyber attack), McKeon says his Dept "takes information security incredibly seriously"

"We were the first Dept to get the cyber security accreditation," he says. Adds his Dept has repelled a number of serious cyber attacks over the course of this year

McKeon says that he disagrees that the soon-to-be-done-away-with JobPath programme was a failure. Says "it has been a reasonably good service"

Asked by Murphy as to the fact "Revenue are telling us one thing, you're telling us something different" regarding who determines someone's employment status, the sec gen refers her to the report on bogus self employment by the Soc Protection committee from June 2021

There was a deal of territorial strife between the two committees regarding that report, if memory serves. McKeon describes it as "very comprehensive". Note that bogus self employment guru @williamhboney1 has described that report as "a disgrace"

He says he doesn't believe it's the case "that everyone in a sector is dealt with in the same way". "People say that but I've yet to see the evidence"

Sec gen does agree that report's recommendation that all employment status decisions be centralised at the WRC, "is not a bad recommendation"

.@ImeldaMunster says that she is "deeply dissatisfied" with the responses from Revenue and Social Protection. Calls for a full independent investigation into bogus self employment. Says she's sure the sec gen will agree. He does not

"I don't think one is necessary," he says

Very narky interaction between Munster and McKeon now. She says the 1997 deal re couriers "has cost the State millions and has screwed over workers". Asks for a yes or no answer re the idea of an independent investigation, something Revenue has already rejected

"I don't think there is a yes or not answer to a question that lasts five minutes," McKeon replies. Accuses Munster of being "somewhat disingenuous". Says "I won't support your proposition, but if the PAC wants to recommend one that is entirely within its gift"

Sec gen tells committee chair that he is "not aware of any deal, I'm assured there is no deal" regarding the single test case from 1995 allegedly being used to determine self-employment status for couriers

"If there are workers who are not happy with their status they can still come to us," he says