John McKeon, sec gen of @welfare_ie will be before the Public Accounts Committee shortly for the first time since the #PSC was declared illegal by @DPCIreland. You can watch it here, there should be some interesting questions... oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-…
@welfare_ie @DPCIreland Ahead of that, the committee is discussing the Dept Finance's denial of transparency re barrister costs for the Apple appeal citing GDPR, something the @DPCIreland has utterly debunked. "This sets a very worrying precedent," says @alankellylabour
@welfare_ie @DPCIreland @alankellylabour DPC getting props for its own transparent submission to the comittee in which it detailed the costs it paid out over the past year and how much the investigation into the #PSC cost
@welfare_ie @DPCIreland @alankellylabour Before John McKeon's appearance (in about 10 minutes), there are a couple of interesting things in his opening submission to the comittee, widely reported this morning. He said that @welfare_ie is happy that the DPC ruled that all #PSC processing is ok for welfare purposes
This contrasts with the fact that Minister @ReginaDo has repeatedly, including on the Dail record, said that she will be appealing ALL eight findings of the DPC, including the ones in her and her department's favour. So how does that work?
Secondly, there is a full cost-benefit analysis on the way in early 2020 for the #PSC. Presumably a remedy for the fact no business case was ever prepared. What will matter there is the body tasked with carrying out the analysis you would think
Committee now in full swing, may have to take a break at 1.30 after correspondence ran on for over two hours. John McKeon says it's "unfair" to suggest his department is pivoting in claiming "counterfactuals" as a way to gauge what expenditure on #PSC has been
To recap, McKeon has said that the overall cost is €37 million "at most" when you take into account the money that "would have been spent anyway" on establishing peoples' identity
He says that, given he only became sec gen in 2017, the "easiest thing" would have been for him to scrap the project as a "new broom". "I genuinely looked at it and the cost is €37 million at most"
Asked how much the legal costs of challenging the @DPCIreland ruling on the #PSC, McKeon says "in truth I don't know". "If we challenge it'll be in the circuit court, which I understand to be cost effective, and the costs will be borne by C&AG and chief state solicitors office"
@DPCIreland It will depend on the nature of the enforcement notice from the DPC, McKeon says. That notice has of course yet to drop
@DPCIreland McKeon asked by @CathMurphyTD as to what questions were asked of the Attorney General that led to his department's decision to challenge the DPC's findings on the #PSC
@DPCIreland @CathMurphyTD This is an interesting question, given AG's advice is never disclosed. But questions put to him can be. "We would have asked the Attorney General whether or not the report was legitimate, we gave it very careful consideration," McKeon says.
"We didn't want to challenge it unless we were absolutely sure that it would succeed" #PSC @welfare_ie is very sure of its footing on this, but does that come down to the fact the investigation was run on pre-GDPR legislation?
@welfare_ie Murphy asks why signup for MyGovID (the only means for applying for the new National Childcare Scheme) is so low (about 10% of #PSC holders, or under 400,000 people)
McKeon replies that roughly €7 million has been spent thus far on MyGovID. Regarding why its takeup numbers are so low: "It's only a few years old so it's playing catchup," he says
The question of biometrics and the card is raised, particularly in the context of €294,000 being spent on facial recognition software for the #PSC. "We're very clear that it doesn’t contain biometric data. We don’t share it with anyone and we do not collect it," is the reply
"What we do do is we process the photograph, the arithmetic template. We do create a biometric template for our own purposes for identity fraud, but it doesn’t leave the dept, it’s all within the dept. They’re different things," McKeon says #PSC
McKeon says that on basis of AG's advice it would have been "foolhardy" not to challenge the DPC's findings
David Cullinane wants to know why DEASP "threatened" the DPC with legal action if it didn't give it adequate time to respond to its interim report into the #PSC from August 2018. "It's unfair to call it a threat, deputy," replies McKeon. "It wasn't possible to meet that deadline.
"We said we needed three months, they gave us eight weeks," he says
Fairly feisty interaction now between Cullinane and McKeon. "I won't be bullied, I don't think you're answering the question," says the TD. "You won't let me answer the question," says the secretary general.
Question relates to the 488 page response of non-searchable material first given to the DPC in 2018. "We were not being difficult, we were being helpful," McKeon says with regard to the difficulty in parsing such a document. Cullinane says that's not the position of the DPC
"Well that's fine," says McKeon
Extended interaction now as to why the Dept sought meeting with the DPC after report issued on Aug 15th. "Their role is not an advisory one," says @davidcullinane. "We got a final report, we identified inconsistencies and so we asked for a meeting for clarification," says McKeon
@davidcullinane McKeon insists that most of the facets needed for a business case were completed satisfactorily for the #PSC. C&AG Seamus McCarthy says "I don't think it's fair to characterise what we found as a business case, it isn't"
PAC now suspended until 2.30. Got quite lively there towards the end. Bit of a breather needed at half time
Catherine Connolly says that McKeon's accountability "deserted him" when it came to discussing the #PSC this morning. Says he should go back and read C&AG report. McKeon has claimed that 17 of 19 of auditor's requirements for a good business case were met
However only 12 of those were found to have been comprehensively satisfied
Current cost of a #PSC is €3.35 per unit apparently, which is a lot lower than it would have been when the unused chip was included. Incidentally, the reason that chip was removed is because such chips can no longer be sourced on the market
Connolly suggests the card serves little purpose as an enabler. She mentions function creep. "Leaving aside privacy, the project was rolled out for €67 million without a business case, without a review, without analysis, no one could stand over that"
McKeon replies he would "disagree vehemently" with much of what the DPC found re the #PSC. "If anything the card didn't happen as quickly as it should have done," he says, adds that there could have been no arguments as to function creep had it been implemented more expeditiously
Imelda Munster suggests that given @welfare_ie hasn't deleted the retained data it holds on citizens, as mandated by the DPC, "would you agree you're breaking the law?" "No I don't believe that's the case," is the reply
"You're not ignoring an opinion here, you're dismissing or ignoring a ruling?" Munster says. "The AG has given us the advice that the findings don't stand up to scrutiny," says McKeon
"Do you believe you're undermining the office of the DPC?" asks Munster. "I'm not going to offer an opinion on that deputy," the sec gen replies. "I’m advised we’re operating within the law, I believe we are operating within the law."
"Every year we take cases in the courts over social welfare appeals for example, this is no different," McKeon says
Just because no business case was prepared doesn't mean the project wasn't coherently planned, says McKeon. Important to note the sec gen took over in 2017, just as the controversy was exploding. The issue of the business case predates him by a distance
He's still in full agreement with what was done mind you #PSC
“I think the people involved in this were highly professional in everything that they did,” says McKeon
“I absolutely hands up would have them in a plan if it was done now. But I don’t think they were critical,” McKeon says of the missing segments needed for a comprehensive business case
Very feisty exchanges now between McKeon and Munster regarding the infamous advice from the AG. He says it's "unfortunate that many people believe we’re breaking the law. We are very eager to see the enforcement notice."
"We take our advice from the AG. There is a long standing precedent that AG advice is not disclosed, and I’m not going to disclose it”
"And that advice is why you're not complying with the DPC? It's a simple question, yes or no. Is that the sole reason," asks Munster
"It's not a yes or no answer," says McKeon. "There is no enforcement notice for us to consider." He says that if that notice replicates the DPC's findings it is "highly likely" that @welfare_ie will challenge it legally
Interesting. McKeon says the only time someone is identified via their free travel pass #PSC is when an investigation is under way by the gardaí. “We don’t identify people,” he says. “But you could?” asks Sean Fleming. “We could but we don’t”
That's your lot from PAC for today. Just the eight hours in session in the end
@welfare_ie Want to clarify this tweet, which I noticed when writing up the piece, McKeon's exact words were: "absolutely sure that a challenge was not only appropriate but necessary”. You can blame PAC-brain for that one
