The #SupremeCourt to continue hearing the matter of EWS and OBC reservation that has delayed NEET PG counselling.
#NEETPG #NEETcounselling #Reservation
#NEETPG #NEETcounselling #Reservation
Sr Adv Arvind Datar: Since time is short, should I just give bullet points?
SC: Yes
Datar: They formed a committee in 2006 that gave a report in 2010. I'll call it the Pandey report as Ajay Bhushan Pandey led it.
The Sino committee came to the conclusion after extensive study..
SC: Yes
Datar: They formed a committee in 2006 that gave a report in 2010. I'll call it the Pandey report as Ajay Bhushan Pandey led it.
The Sino committee came to the conclusion after extensive study..
Datar: The commission consulted state govt and UTs, NGOs and social leaders. It contains exhaustive discussion of each and every party. For eg Tamil Nadu said we have 69% reservation we don't need economic one at all.
It's very detailed, they've gone state wise.
It's very detailed, they've gone state wise.
Datar: No reference to agriculture land etc have been made by the committee. BPL population in General category was higher in some states than others. BPL is an expenditure based statistics.
The committee goes into determination of poverty. BPL can be a factor,
#Neetpg
The committee goes into determination of poverty. BPL can be a factor,
#Neetpg
Datar: it can be nutritional value but final they settled at income.
Emphasis was put on caste based survey to understand the distribution.
They say there must be a bottom up approach
Our submission is 8 lakh is a top down approach and not a bottom up approach.
#neetpg
Emphasis was put on caste based survey to understand the distribution.
They say there must be a bottom up approach
Our submission is 8 lakh is a top down approach and not a bottom up approach.
#neetpg
Datar: Family should be taken as unit.
Don't adopt creamy layer criteria. Income limit of husband and wife, excluding that of older people and children to be taken.
Though GC is a class of unreserved category more of less equal, their economic conditions are not equal
#neetpg
Don't adopt creamy layer criteria. Income limit of husband and wife, excluding that of older people and children to be taken.
Though GC is a class of unreserved category more of less equal, their economic conditions are not equal
#neetpg
Datar: From such resources the commission came to the understanding that economically backward classes will come from unreserved categories.
They reiterate don't adopt creamy layer. The commission also felt the creteria should be simple for EBCs- non tax paying families and
They reiterate don't adopt creamy layer. The commission also felt the creteria should be simple for EBCs- non tax paying families and
Datar: BPL could be one.
Everyone with BPL is automatically EBC and everyone below the taxing limit should be taken as EBC.
#NEETPG
Everyone with BPL is automatically EBC and everyone below the taxing limit should be taken as EBC.
#NEETPG
SC: Me Datar, you'll wrap up by 12?
Datar: Yes. Others are waiting. Sino Commission's one recommendation is go by the income.
SC: All BPL families+ all families whose income is below taxable limit which was 1.60l in 2010. But Sino did say extending criteria for creamy layer
Datar: Yes. Others are waiting. Sino Commission's one recommendation is go by the income.
SC: All BPL families+ all families whose income is below taxable limit which was 1.60l in 2010. But Sino did say extending criteria for creamy layer
SC: for this determination. We got your point that paraphrasing of Sino in counter is wrong.
Datar: My also point is they have gone into even vaccination status of people, it is such a detailed report. There must be compelling reasons to dismiss Simo commission and go to creamy..
Datar: My also point is they have gone into even vaccination status of people, it is such a detailed report. There must be compelling reasons to dismiss Simo commission and go to creamy..
Datar: layer. Neither the Pandey committee not the counter has given even one sentence as to what is the reason for rejection of Sino Commission. After spending so much time, money, effort and consulting so many people, you say I'm just gonna adopt creamy layer.
#neetpg
#neetpg
Datar: If at all you want to adopt economic criteria, here is a detailed report.
Income limit- how did they come to 8 lakhs?
They say creamy layer was 6 L in 2016. Consumer point index 1.46- 6x 1.36 is 8 Lakhs. That's all.
#neetpg
Income limit- how did they come to 8 lakhs?
They say creamy layer was 6 L in 2016. Consumer point index 1.46- 6x 1.36 is 8 Lakhs. That's all.
#neetpg
Datar: In Pandey committee report, there is no reason for agriculture land. They themselves say asset class is flawed.
1st point is not ignoring Sino com.
2nd is no study.
3rd is power under 15(6) and 16(6), both centre and state can form commissions to find economically backward
1st point is not ignoring Sino com.
2nd is no study.
3rd is power under 15(6) and 16(6), both centre and state can form commissions to find economically backward
Datar: class. Kerala has taken up its own exercise and limited it to 4L.
SC: We are referring to all india quota here. Determine EWS in this should be given to every state? This is all India.
Datar: The govt can argue how all India quota will apply to central institutes.
#neetpg
SC: We are referring to all india quota here. Determine EWS in this should be given to every state? This is all India.
Datar: The govt can argue how all India quota will apply to central institutes.
#neetpg
Datar: Income disparity- please go to my charts. The Pandey committee says they don't have reliable data which is not correct. There was a parliamentary question if there is huge difference in per capita income.
The answer was it ranges from around 14k to 4L.
#neetpg
The answer was it ranges from around 14k to 4L.
#neetpg
SC: What is your submission?
Datar: In a vast country like India, where it ranges from 40k to 4L- 8Lakh is an arbitrary number.
I'm going with Mr Shyam Diwan- we should not change the rules of the game.
Other submission I'm making is I was startled to see GC varies vastly
#neetpg
Datar: In a vast country like India, where it ranges from 40k to 4L- 8Lakh is an arbitrary number.
I'm going with Mr Shyam Diwan- we should not change the rules of the game.
Other submission I'm making is I was startled to see GC varies vastly
#neetpg
Datar: It is best to have a fixed flat income that is clear indicative.
I'll come to asset category and wind up.
Income criteria of 8L is arbitrary, assets criteria is even worse.
5 acres of agricultural land- keeping national limit of 5 acre is completely wrong. In Kerala it's
I'll come to asset category and wind up.
Income criteria of 8L is arbitrary, assets criteria is even worse.
5 acres of agricultural land- keeping national limit of 5 acre is completely wrong. In Kerala it's
Datar: impossible to have 5 acre due to population density.
There is no answer on what basis is this arrived at. Residential flat in Bombay, Chennai is so different. Residential plot nothing.
My submission is if you use income plus asset, income is over inclusive and it's a top
There is no answer on what basis is this arrived at. Residential flat in Bombay, Chennai is so different. Residential plot nothing.
My submission is if you use income plus asset, income is over inclusive and it's a top
Datar: down approach and leaves out deserving candidates.
SC: Pandey com says Type 1 error- undeserving getting advantage and type 2 deserving not getting. So this is type 2 error.
Datar:The difficulty is if the reserved category candidate makes it to the score for open category
SC: Pandey com says Type 1 error- undeserving getting advantage and type 2 deserving not getting. So this is type 2 error.
Datar:The difficulty is if the reserved category candidate makes it to the score for open category
Datar: they are counted in open category. On top of it if you don't calculate EBS properly then GC are not getting any reservation anywhere.
In Indra Swahney, they said it's about a proper and appropriate identification of a backward class with distinguishing traits from others
In Indra Swahney, they said it's about a proper and appropriate identification of a backward class with distinguishing traits from others
Datar: Replace backward to economically backward.
In the 7th pay commission, the salary of class 4 employee is 18k to 30k. If you take this, none of these children will be able to claim benefit is there is 8L limit.
People must have common traits in the class.
#neetpg
In the 7th pay commission, the salary of class 4 employee is 18k to 30k. If you take this, none of these children will be able to claim benefit is there is 8L limit.
People must have common traits in the class.
#neetpg
Datar: Supreme Court had issued a means test against Maharashtra's scheme for housing for poor. As a working guideline, we direct that a means test will be adopted and income for applicant shouldn't exceed 18k. The SC directed minimum income tax limit to be the limit.
#neetpg
#neetpg
Datar: Please come to creamy layer. They themselves say there'll be a huge compliance burden if you ask people to...The reason to discontinue it next year is where are candidates going to get all these certificates?
Let us stick to the criteria on the prospectus. 8L is completely
Let us stick to the criteria on the prospectus. 8L is completely
Datar: arbitrary. Now we're talking about PG, it will be applicable to all India.
Lordships may direct 2.5 L should be limit for this year for today's counselling. Rest we can see later.
Let us at least preserve integrity of Sino Commission.
#neetpg
Lordships may direct 2.5 L should be limit for this year for today's counselling. Rest we can see later.
Let us at least preserve integrity of Sino Commission.
#neetpg
SC: Who is appearing for petitioners?
Yes, Mr Choudhary?
Adv Shrirang Choudhary: Unless the constitutional mandate is complied with, no additions can be made.
After the 102nd amendment, OBC list has to be notified by the President as per newly inserted Article 342A.
#neetpg
Yes, Mr Choudhary?
Adv Shrirang Choudhary: Unless the constitutional mandate is complied with, no additions can be made.
After the 102nd amendment, OBC list has to be notified by the President as per newly inserted Article 342A.
#neetpg
Choudhary: This revision of SC/BC was last done in 2016. Thereafter by this particular insertion, it is mandatory
SC: We got the poj t. What's the next point?
Choudhary: In 2017, Justice Rohini commision was set up to examine sub categorisation to ensure benefits being given to
SC: We got the poj t. What's the next point?
Choudhary: In 2017, Justice Rohini commision was set up to examine sub categorisation to ensure benefits being given to
Choudhary: all classes. 2300 castes are to be divided into 4 groups. 2% ,6%, 9% and 10% to be divided amongst them to make up 27%.
Just 10 caste groups take up 25% of the benefits.
NCBC was set up as per Indra Swahney. The NCBC Act was brought in in 1993.
SC: It calls for
Just 10 caste groups take up 25% of the benefits.
NCBC was set up as per Indra Swahney. The NCBC Act was brought in in 1993.
SC: It calls for
SC: revision in 10 years, what is the point?
Choudhary: No revision has happened since 1993.
SC: Thank you, Mr Choudhary.
#neetpg
Choudhary: No revision has happened since 1993.
SC: Thank you, Mr Choudhary.
#neetpg
Sr Adv Anand Grover: For the purposes of A15, 16 backward classes shall be indicated by family income and other factors.
The report that has been submitted, EWS should be perceived art prevailing level of poverty rather than creamy layer.
8L limit allows the creamy layer to..
The report that has been submitted, EWS should be perceived art prevailing level of poverty rather than creamy layer.
8L limit allows the creamy layer to..
Grover: to come in. The economically weaker section criteria of nutrition, landlessness, employment etc is completely ignored.
The figure of 8L is arbitrary. In their own report, the affidavit says they are accepting the report prospectively. Not clear what they mean. What I
The figure of 8L is arbitrary. In their own report, the affidavit says they are accepting the report prospectively. Not clear what they mean. What I
Grover: understand is that it will be enforced after it comes out and govt accepts it. It is not very clear.
I support Mr Datar's arguments about 8L criteria.
Even with this criteria, if the income taxt criteria is adopted of 5L, vast majority falls in it.
Upto 5L is a huge
I support Mr Datar's arguments about 8L criteria.
Even with this criteria, if the income taxt criteria is adopted of 5L, vast majority falls in it.
Upto 5L is a huge
Grover: figure. There is no reason why they have made it to 8L.
SC: What you are saying is use your 142 power and limit it to 5L?
Grover: I'm saying use the income tax cut off figure. With inflation it varies from 2.5L.
#neetpg
SC: What you are saying is use your 142 power and limit it to 5L?
Grover: I'm saying use the income tax cut off figure. With inflation it varies from 2.5L.
#neetpg
Grover: I'm supplementing Mr Datar's submission. Given that there is no evidence of bunch EWS in higher income bracket, despite the fact the bulk of candidates is under 5L, higher criterion is required.
Except for this sentence, there is no reason why it should be 8 and not 5L.
Except for this sentence, there is no reason why it should be 8 and not 5L.
Grover: 8L is arbitrary.
SC: Thank you, Mr Grover.
SC: Thank you, Mr Grover.
SC: We are concluding with the petitioners so one side is over.
Adv Dave: I'm representing resident doctors who had gone on strike. 45000 doctors are inducted as PG doctor's every year in medical workforce. This year because of the pandemic exam happened late, only 2nd
#neetpg
Adv Dave: I'm representing resident doctors who had gone on strike. 45000 doctors are inducted as PG doctor's every year in medical workforce. This year because of the pandemic exam happened late, only 2nd
#neetpg
Dave: and 3rd year residents are there because 1st years have not joined.
SC: What is your submission?
Dave: The counselling had to start immediately because 3rd year residents are about to pass out in 4 months. We'll be left with 33% of workforce. With 3rd wave coming we need
SC: What is your submission?
Dave: The counselling had to start immediately because 3rd year residents are about to pass out in 4 months. We'll be left with 33% of workforce. With 3rd wave coming we need
Dave (@FordaIndia): doctors. The 8L or 5L limit can be looked at later.
SC: That's a valid point you're making, not only for the doctors but also the citizens. Thank you.
#neetpg
SC: That's a valid point you're making, not only for the doctors but also the citizens. Thank you.
#neetpg
Adv Subodh Patil: Reservations are not required in PG courses. That my limited submission where OBCs are concerned. I'm not challenging EWS.
The scheme is not benefiting those intended.
SC: Thank you.
The scheme is not benefiting those intended.
SC: Thank you.
SC: We are now listening to people opposing OBC reservation.
Adv Varun Thakur: I'm opposing EWS.
SC: Do just then.
Thakur: Constitutional validity is still sub judice. There is no settled position.
SC: We got your point thank you.
#neetpg
Adv Varun Thakur: I'm opposing EWS.
SC: Do just then.
Thakur: Constitutional validity is still sub judice. There is no settled position.
SC: We got your point thank you.
#neetpg
SC: Now we'll turn to Solicitor General of India Tushar Mehta
Adv Ratnoo: I've done extensive research for OBC, if court could give me some time.
SC: We listened to petitioners, now respondents. We are following a pattern.
Adv Ratnoo: I've done extensive research for OBC, if court could give me some time.
SC: We listened to petitioners, now respondents. We are following a pattern.
Solicitor General of India Tushar Mehta: I would dispel the rumour that there is any change of rules midway.
The regime which is subject matter of this challenge is already implemented since 2019 except in all india quota of UG and PG.
#neetpg
The regime which is subject matter of this challenge is already implemented since 2019 except in all india quota of UG and PG.
#neetpg
SGI: The submission of the petitioner that OBC reservation is per se unconstitutional as canvassed by Mr Diwan is not legally sustainable submission and the judgment he relied on does not state this.
The Pandey committee report- eventually the submission would be unless it is
The Pandey committee report- eventually the submission would be unless it is
SGI: grossly unfair and no man with common sense would reach this conclusion. There is no change in the rules of the game as Mr Diwan is saying.
Release of information brochure: 21/2/21
Rules of game starts from this date.
#neetpg
Release of information brochure: 21/2/21
Rules of game starts from this date.
#neetpg
SGI: exam date: 18 March, new date 13th July 21. Date for counselling is released is 29 July 21. Now please see, so far as the first date is concerned, information bulletin was issued only for neet examination. Reservation will be as per norms of GOI and state govt as applicable
SGI: My performance in exam doesn't depend on the reservation. I have to perform my best. Can't say there's more reservation so I can perform less.
When the counselling starts, you'll be informed what's the position of reservation.
29 July 21 brochure was given.
#neetpg
When the counselling starts, you'll be informed what's the position of reservation.
29 July 21 brochure was given.
#neetpg
SGI: What was the position when these 29 July notification was issued? It was not for the first time central govt introduced such reservations (OBC, EWS). There is an act called Central Educational Institutes (Reservation in admissions) Act 2006. This concerns OBC reservation.
SGI: Reservations can be made to uplift weaker sections of the society in institutions run or aided by central govt.
Right from 2006, the CEI had 27% reservation. In all india quota, the 29 July notification, it is not happening for the first time.
#neetpg
Right from 2006, the CEI had 27% reservation. In all india quota, the 29 July notification, it is not happening for the first time.
#neetpg
SGI: 27% OBC and 10% EWS because that is the decision taken in January 2019 which is mentioned in the committee report.
31 Jan 2019, theyve already implemented. For UPSC examination they already have these reservations.
These are all on record by way of an affidavit.
#neetpg
31 Jan 2019, theyve already implemented. For UPSC examination they already have these reservations.
These are all on record by way of an affidavit.
#neetpg
SGI: NDS counselling happened with the same 27% OBC and 10% EWS.
Everywhere it is implemented. It would be discrimination if it is not implemented in NEET UG and PG all India quota.
#neetpg
Everywhere it is implemented. It would be discrimination if it is not implemented in NEET UG and PG all India quota.
#neetpg
SC: Mr Solicitor, would it be sufficient if we give you half an hour for lunch?
SGI: Yes yes
SC: We'll return at 1:30.
Rohatgi: Can I have a moment's indulgence?
Item 32 the bail matter is in February. I heard you saying it's not up.
SC: Not your matter, that was something else.
SGI: Yes yes
SC: We'll return at 1:30.
Rohatgi: Can I have a moment's indulgence?
Item 32 the bail matter is in February. I heard you saying it's not up.
SC: Not your matter, that was something else.
The bench reconvenes.
SGI: There are two submissions wrt rules of the game. The game started wef Feb 2021 when the notification issued said reservation will be announced later. The exam is related to counselling not reservation.
The candidates who had registered for counselling have already
The candidates who had registered for counselling have already
SGI: got their certificates wrt EWS and have filed it with counselling centre as per previous regime. There will not be any hardship to anyone.
SC: When did they have to file the certificates?
SGI: 29 July, when the counselling booklet was published. Not at the time of Feb 21.
SC: When did they have to file the certificates?
SGI: 29 July, when the counselling booklet was published. Not at the time of Feb 21.
SGI: Nobody needs to file anything. They are only waiting for counselling as per pre Pandey committee report.
When 103rd amendment came- EWS class was added, the govt took a decision that in all medical colleges, let us increase the seats by 125%. Wherever EWS students will be..
When 103rd amendment came- EWS class was added, the govt took a decision that in all medical colleges, let us increase the seats by 125%. Wherever EWS students will be..
SGI: accomodated would not harm the other candidates as the 25% increase was made for them.
Mr Datar said it's unconstitutional.
Art 15(5) itself provides for it.
SC: Which is the submission you're bringing out?
SGI: Para 16, Pg 7.
#neetpg
Mr Datar said it's unconstitutional.
Art 15(5) itself provides for it.
SC: Which is the submission you're bringing out?
SGI: Para 16, Pg 7.
#neetpg
Correction: the increase was by 25% not 125%.
SGI: There cannot be any reservation in superspeciality. We are concerned with counselling in NEET. NEET has nothing to do with super speciality.
Art 15(5) has not distinguished between UG and PG when it says state can have reservations for socially and educationally backward..
Art 15(5) has not distinguished between UG and PG when it says state can have reservations for socially and educationally backward..
SGI: class. It does not demarcate UG or PG level. Therefore OBC reservation is constitutionally permitted in both UG and PG.
Mr Datar relied on Pradeep Jain judgement that reservation can't happen in PG.
My substance is this none of the judgements of your lordships even remotely
Mr Datar relied on Pradeep Jain judgement that reservation can't happen in PG.
My substance is this none of the judgements of your lordships even remotely
SGI: suggest that there cannot be reservation in OG. Pradeep Jain dealt with reservation wrt residential requirements or institutional preference.
SC: I think it's in Mr Diwan's petition.
Sr Adv Diwan: yes my lord.
SGI: There was a domicile question there.
#neetpg
SC: I think it's in Mr Diwan's petition.
Sr Adv Diwan: yes my lord.
SGI: There was a domicile question there.
#neetpg
SGI: This judgement says that other reservations can be made validly.
So far as residential or institutional preference is concerned, my lords have been clear that there'll be no reservation in PG.
#neetpg
So far as residential or institutional preference is concerned, my lords have been clear that there'll be no reservation in PG.
#neetpg
SC: Only in the case of super speciality there'll be no reservation at all even on the basis of residence and institutional preference.
SGI: That is the correct reading.
SC: After the PG level you can have it on other criteria.
SGI: That is the correct reading.
SC: After the PG level you can have it on other criteria.
SGI: It is permissible to have reservation in PG, your lordships said in the case of Haryana but you said that there will be no mandamus.
SC: What is the next judgement?
SGI: It's a constitutional bench judgement. Pradeep Jain has been understood even by the constitutional bench
SC: What is the next judgement?
SGI: It's a constitutional bench judgement. Pradeep Jain has been understood even by the constitutional bench
SGI: as relating to residence and institutional preference.
They said they find no reason to depart from Pradeep Jain ratio. It has nothing to do with PG reservation.
Next judgement- 2020 13SCC 675- only ratio is this, it's got nothing to do with permissibility of PG reservation.
They said they find no reason to depart from Pradeep Jain ratio. It has nothing to do with PG reservation.
Next judgement- 2020 13SCC 675- only ratio is this, it's got nothing to do with permissibility of PG reservation.
SGI: As far as OBC reservation in Central Educational Institutes is concerned, the Act of 2006 and Art 15 covers it. Art 15 doesn't demarcate UG and PG.
There was a study, there was application of mind. It was not an unstudied position taken.
#neetpg
There was a study, there was application of mind. It was not an unstudied position taken.
#neetpg
SGI: Exercise undertaken by union govt- just to say that let us continue existing system this year-
SC: Now it's about EWS?
SGI: Yes. It is submitted the criteria for determination of EWS category was arrived at after due deliberation by Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment
SC: Now it's about EWS?
SGI: Yes. It is submitted the criteria for determination of EWS category was arrived at after due deliberation by Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment
SC: Before the 103 amendment there was no consultation to MoSJE to consider medical colleges.
SGI: Mr Natraj will take it in the end.
The determination of EWS doesnt suffer from over inclusiveness.
Now come to Pandey committee report.They also come to the same conclusion
#neetpg
SGI: Mr Natraj will take it in the end.
The determination of EWS doesnt suffer from over inclusiveness.
Now come to Pandey committee report.They also come to the same conclusion
#neetpg
SGI: ultimately we may go into all kinds of statistics but ultimately what convinces the court is the common sense argument. Whether 8L from common sense point of view be correct- 8L means 7000 a month.
We are not finding out who is poor. The word used is economically weaker.
We are not finding out who is poor. The word used is economically weaker.
SGI: This Scottish poet Andrew Lang says that some people use statistics like a drunken man uses a lamp post- for support and not illumination.
SGI: First paperless census happened with all these details. Automatically included households without shelters, of manual scavengers etc.
What was the outcome?
The outcome reveals that 73% of households belong to rural areas. 39% of them are excluded from the beneficiary pool.
What was the outcome?
The outcome reveals that 73% of households belong to rural areas. 39% of them are excluded from the beneficiary pool.
SGI: 0.9% are automatically included.
Why I'm showing this?
Whenever we undertake such a exercise it will be possible for an intelligent mind to figure out another way of doing things.
It is whether relevant was considered? Whether irrelevant material went into consideration?
Why I'm showing this?
Whenever we undertake such a exercise it will be possible for an intelligent mind to figure out another way of doing things.
It is whether relevant was considered? Whether irrelevant material went into consideration?
SGI: Whether there was application of mind? And finally, if it is so absurd that a person with common sense would not think it.
The National multidimensional poverty index developed by NITI Ayog is also one tool. Your lordship will not take a different view till you find this
The National multidimensional poverty index developed by NITI Ayog is also one tool. Your lordship will not take a different view till you find this
SGI: view absurd.
No single indicator can capture poverty.
Any straightjacket rule is never useful.
No single indicator can capture poverty.
Any straightjacket rule is never useful.
SGI: Now difference between creamy layer and EWS. EWS is much tighter for people like shopkeepers etc. People can have one good harvest and move out of EWS. We have to cap it somewhere.
In the creamy layer, the total income from salaries and agricultural land shall not be counted
In the creamy layer, the total income from salaries and agricultural land shall not be counted
SC: When you first came to court you proceeded on the basis that 8L is creamy layer criteria.
In the Pandey report, it is said that Sinho said the criteria for creamy layer in OBC can be the upper limit for EBC.
In the Pandey report, it is said that Sinho said the criteria for creamy layer in OBC can be the upper limit for EBC.
SC: Sinho Com said we could have placed it on OBC creamy layer criteria. But they said no. OBC is backwardness of caste, this is economically backward so income is taken.
First the affidavit you filed you said creamy layer.
While revisiting, you said Pandey committee says EWS
First the affidavit you filed you said creamy layer.
While revisiting, you said Pandey committee says EWS
SC:is much stricter as it's last year's income which can be very volatile.
Today's income tax exemption limit is 2.5L. upto 5L you get a rebate. Effectively there's no tax.
SGI: I'd like to preface an argument that we're not looking at poor but EWS. even while framing
Today's income tax exemption limit is 2.5L. upto 5L you get a rebate. Effectively there's no tax.
SGI: I'd like to preface an argument that we're not looking at poor but EWS. even while framing
SGI: the income tax limit, the govt tends to be inclusive and even includes those who they deem to have savings.
SC: The 5-8L, is this something the court should defer? As in should we say it's not arbitrary view. The reason I'm putting this to you.
Adv Ratnoo: I want to clarify something
SC: The Solicitor General is arguing.
SGI: They have taken various routes to decide what destination we
Adv Ratnoo: I want to clarify something
SC: The Solicitor General is arguing.
SGI: They have taken various routes to decide what destination we
SGI: should reach. They are not stuck on 8L.
The committee is of the view that EWS should be wrt Income Tax and agricultural income. If three people are earning 3L per year, their income will be 9L and won't be eligible for EWS. This would be worse with 5L.
We don't want over or
The committee is of the view that EWS should be wrt Income Tax and agricultural income. If three people are earning 3L per year, their income will be 9L and won't be eligible for EWS. This would be worse with 5L.
We don't want over or
SGI: under inclusion.
SC: The Pandey Committee has accepted the retaining of 5 acres of agricultural land. The rest like measurement of residenti land and all they say is very burdensome. If it is burdensome, why are you removing it next year and not this year?
SGI: The 5L income
SC: The Pandey Committee has accepted the retaining of 5 acres of agricultural land. The rest like measurement of residenti land and all they say is very burdensome. If it is burdensome, why are you removing it next year and not this year?
SGI: The 5L income
SGI: is family income. Why they're saying have from next year- apart from wealth tax, they've also said 500 sq ft flat in Bombay, Chennai or small village will be different. If we were now to change the rules of the game and ask them to get new certificates..
SC: You don't need
SC: You don't need
SC: new certificates. You'll have to give them fresh time to apply if you do it this year.
SGI: I can say I did have flat and didn't meet the criteria.
SC: We understand why next year.
How much time should we give you? We'd like to wind up today.
#neetpg
SGI: I can say I did have flat and didn't meet the criteria.
SC: We understand why next year.
How much time should we give you? We'd like to wind up today.
#neetpg
SGI: We are considering family as a unit and not individual. Individual might have a 5L limit but not family.
SGI: In a case like this, you can consider it prospectively.
If my learned colleague Mr Natraj wants to add.
ASG KM Nataraj: I will not repeat anything. Dr Dinesh Kumar v Motilal Nehru Medical College- all India reservation could be provided.
When PG courses were discussed,
If my learned colleague Mr Natraj wants to add.
ASG KM Nataraj: I will not repeat anything. Dr Dinesh Kumar v Motilal Nehru Medical College- all India reservation could be provided.
When PG courses were discussed,
ASG: a certain %age maybe reserved for institutional preference. The govt was obliged to holding all india examination and it was observed. Govt submitted a scheme as to how reservation should be provided.
It won't be right for us to limit the reservation that states can make to
It won't be right for us to limit the reservation that states can make to
ASG: 50% in MBBS, BDS and PG courses.
In Budhi Prakash Sharma, there was some ambiguity so in 2007 clarification was sought. 50% to be filled by all India examination includes reservation.
Reservation is provided by the court, the extent has to be decided by it and not govt.
In Budhi Prakash Sharma, there was some ambiguity so in 2007 clarification was sought. 50% to be filled by all India examination includes reservation.
Reservation is provided by the court, the extent has to be decided by it and not govt.
ASG: Consistent view of the court is Art 15(4) is an enabling provision. Preferential treatment can be given validly when socially backward classes need it. It does not make reservation mandatory.
Reservation for SC/ST/backward communities is allowed but there can't be mandamus.
Reservation for SC/ST/backward communities is allowed but there can't be mandamus.
SC: Mr Nataraj we saw this judgement already. Now what else?
ASG: the SG said Art 15(5) says educational institutions includes OG
SC: Yes, he's made that argument.
Thank you.
Sr Adv P Wilson: The court hasnt dealt with communal reservation. What is merit? The court has said mark
ASG: the SG said Art 15(5) says educational institutions includes OG
SC: Yes, he's made that argument.
Thank you.
Sr Adv P Wilson: The court hasnt dealt with communal reservation. What is merit? The court has said mark
Wilson(for OBC): is not merit in Pradeep Jain. Merit cannot be seek in view of marks alone but human values necessary for the medical profession.
SC:In my judgement in Pavitra also I've dealt with it wrt to efficiency.
Wilson:Those who are unequal cannot be treated equally in law
SC:In my judgement in Pavitra also I've dealt with it wrt to efficiency.
Wilson:Those who are unequal cannot be treated equally in law
Wilson: We must proceed on the basis, as far as admission to MBBS is concerned,resident requirement can be added as a condition. Para 22 they'll say 50% for the institutional.
For others, Dinesh Kumar and ors, they have held they're not going into the question of reservation.
For others, Dinesh Kumar and ors, they have held they're not going into the question of reservation.
Wilson: These may give rise to question of social policy that the court will have to deal with at some time.
In Rakjeshvaran they asked for reservation, the court said that court cannot give a direction to give reservation.
#neetpg
In Rakjeshvaran they asked for reservation, the court said that court cannot give a direction to give reservation.
#neetpg
Wilson: The core question is about constitutional validity of reservation based on domicile or institutional preference.
Abhaynath case is the first case dealing with grant of reservation when govt wanted to give it. Court permitted to include the reservation to SC/ST students.
Abhaynath case is the first case dealing with grant of reservation when govt wanted to give it. Court permitted to include the reservation to SC/ST students.
Wilson: In my written submission, this fact has been suppressed by the petitioner.
For a CEI, reservation has been implemented right from 2008. You can't say the centre can give reservation and stop state from doing the same.
Mad HC held when CEI is granting reservation, there is
For a CEI, reservation has been implemented right from 2008. You can't say the centre can give reservation and stop state from doing the same.
Mad HC held when CEI is granting reservation, there is
Wilson: no impediment in state giving that reservation.
The reservation of seats in medical colleges for respective categories shall be as per prevailing laws in the state and UTs. This is for the UG courses.
For PG courses, the reservation of seats in medical colleges for
The reservation of seats in medical colleges for respective categories shall be as per prevailing laws in the state and UTs. This is for the UG courses.
For PG courses, the reservation of seats in medical colleges for
Wilson: will be according to prevailing laws in the states and UTs.
SC: Therefore the Mad HC said
Wilson: please see pg 135. Mad HC said if you want to give reservation, constitute a committee and give from next academic year.
Wilson: please see pg 135. Mad HC said if you want to give reservation, constitute a committee and give from next academic year.
Wilson: Saloni Kumari came to the court to ask for 27% reservation. The court said go to Mad HC. Liberty was given by this court.
HC deferred the case, then this court gave an instruction to the HC to hear the case.
HC deferred the case, then this court gave an instruction to the HC to hear the case.
Wilson: This 8L OBC criteria. By not stretch of imagination this can be compared to EWS. They are comparing unequals with equals. That cannot be done.
SC: Are you opposing the EWS reservation?
Wilson: no. In the original affidavit they said creamy layer has 8L limit but there is
SC: Are you opposing the EWS reservation?
Wilson: no. In the original affidavit they said creamy layer has 8L limit but there is
Wilson: a history there.
SC: You're sayin ipso facto the two cannot be 8L on the same criteria.
SGI: Mr Wilson you're arguing something that's a good supposition in law but not argued here.
Ratnoo: I've been waiting patiently my lordAs an intervener I won't take more than 5 mins
SC: You're sayin ipso facto the two cannot be 8L on the same criteria.
SGI: Mr Wilson you're arguing something that's a good supposition in law but not argued here.
Ratnoo: I've been waiting patiently my lordAs an intervener I won't take more than 5 mins
SC: Your time hasn't come yet.
Mr Wilson, on EWS you don't want to specifically add something?
SC: Thank you very much, Mr Wilson.
Sr Adv Mariaputham: I'm appearing for Tamil Nadu.
SC: Yes?
Mariaputham: The SGI mentioned 2016 act. What I want to submit is that 2016 act + 15(4)
Mr Wilson, on EWS you don't want to specifically add something?
SC: Thank you very much, Mr Wilson.
Sr Adv Mariaputham: I'm appearing for Tamil Nadu.
SC: Yes?
Mariaputham: The SGI mentioned 2016 act. What I want to submit is that 2016 act + 15(4)
Mariarputham:including 27% reservation in favour of OBCs. In OG courses, reservation can be given.
1994 4SCC 401, reservation in PG medical Courses rejected all challenges to reservation for SC, ST and OBC.
Pradeep Jain is only dealing with regional reservation.
Clear distinction
1994 4SCC 401, reservation in PG medical Courses rejected all challenges to reservation for SC, ST and OBC.
Pradeep Jain is only dealing with regional reservation.
Clear distinction
Mariarputham: made between PG and super speciality. No reservation in super speciality.
From 2008, central govt has been providing reservation to OBCs in CEI on central seats. In Saloni Devi this was challenged to take all seats as a pool and not discriminate b/w state and centre
From 2008, central govt has been providing reservation to OBCs in CEI on central seats. In Saloni Devi this was challenged to take all seats as a pool and not discriminate b/w state and centre
Mariarputham: Entirety of All India seats is considered as one entity as it stands corrected.
Advocate Biju: Will hearing continue tomorrow?
SC: We are wrapping up today, if you want to say anything.
Biju: There are two judgements saying that if there are two views in an
Advocate Biju: Will hearing continue tomorrow?
SC: We are wrapping up today, if you want to say anything.
Biju: There are two judgements saying that if there are two views in an
Biju: amendment, the court should be extremely careful in taking one view.
My lords may note that.
Everybody were attacking against EWS, I will submit that what was constituent assembly debate in interpreting EWS. I'm pained by this point formed wrt to OBCs and EWS.
My lords may note that.
Everybody were attacking against EWS, I will submit that what was constituent assembly debate in interpreting EWS. I'm pained by this point formed wrt to OBCs and EWS.
SC: When you formulate points you don't have to get pained.
Just give us a note, we get your point.
Biju: I'll give 25 judgements. I'm EWS in the court
SC: You want to argue the whole day tomorrow, we'll delay the order.
Biju: No, no. I'll give a note.
Just give us a note, we get your point.
Biju: I'll give 25 judgements. I'm EWS in the court
SC: You want to argue the whole day tomorrow, we'll delay the order.
Biju: No, no. I'll give a note.
Adv Ratnoo: In OBC salary and agricultural income is not counted, in EWS everything is counted. Rohini commission has got extension, they'll come out with report on 32/1/22.
There no bar for PG reservation.
SC: Thank you.
There no bar for PG reservation.
SC: Thank you.
SC(Chandrachud J) : Everyone is equal in the court. Don't say you are EWS here. We have been hearing the matter for two days. We must start counselling in national interest.
#neetpg
#neetpg
Sr Adv Shyam Divan: My submission is with these dates available to the court and that the impugned notification.
We are not dealing with a handful of seats we are dealing with 2500 seats.
As far as Neet MDS is concerned there is no problem.
It's 33.4 on the list.
We are not dealing with a handful of seats we are dealing with 2500 seats.
As far as Neet MDS is concerned there is no problem.
It's 33.4 on the list.
Divan: The court is saying look 50% all india quota keep it in general category. I have appeared for my PG exam today and I believe my rights are being violated and putting me at a tremendous disadvantage.
Divan: When they issued the public notice also, their understanding was very different. Their understanding also was this was a court created 50% quota. Can you have an executive decision turn it?
I want to spend a minute on Mad HC order.
Yes we are aware of Justice Nageshwar Rao
I want to spend a minute on Mad HC order.
Yes we are aware of Justice Nageshwar Rao
Divan: judgement. It must stand on the basis of Whether it is constitutionally firm. It was not about individual students.
We're here before the court who have been very patiently hearing this.
May we submit the note by tomorrow morning?
SC: Thank you, yes.
We're here before the court who have been very patiently hearing this.
May we submit the note by tomorrow morning?
SC: Thank you, yes.
Datar: The lordship has to keep in mind that seats are going to EWS which is not a defined category. It can have huge effect of PG candidates life.
The 8L and all is without any kind of data whatsoever.
After deliberation Sinho committee said 2.5L and gave a formula, nobody
The 8L and all is without any kind of data whatsoever.
After deliberation Sinho committee said 2.5L and gave a formula, nobody
Datar: questioned it. Sinho commissionhas gone to depth, let's not question it. Let's keep it at 2.5L because after that you become and Income Tax assessee.
That's all
That's all
SGI: My distinction is it is for family, not individual.
Datar: Very difficult for them to get asset certificate. it will delay counselling.
SC: Mr Mehta said they've already submitted.
Datar: I don't know then.
Datar: Very difficult for them to get asset certificate. it will delay counselling.
SC: Mr Mehta said they've already submitted.
Datar: I don't know then.
Datar: I have challenged the validity in my own petition, that will be heard by larger bench. Your lordships will limit to EWS. It can't be 8L forever. If I'm agrieved I'll challenge it.
SC: Thank you, Mr Datar.
SC: Thank you, Mr Datar.
The bench rises.
[BREAKING] "NEET PG counselling has to begin in national interest:" says Supreme Court, reserves verdict
report by @PranshuBharti17
#NeetPGcounselling2021 #NEET #neetpg2021counselling #SupremeCourt
Read story here: bityl.co/ANPB
report by @PranshuBharti17
#NeetPGcounselling2021 #NEET #neetpg2021counselling #SupremeCourt
Read story here: bityl.co/ANPB
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