Thread by @copscampaign

#spycopsinquiry is about to start again for Day 7 of this round of hearings - you can watch from 10:10 onwards at

#Spycops

We began with a summary of HN2401's evidence being read by a member of the @ucpinquiry staff, Elizabeth Campbell.
This officer's name is Anthony Greenslade.

He joined the police in the mid 50s, and Special Branch in 1960.

@ucpinquiry He worked at Britain's seaports, and after a spell in Anguilla, returned to London in 1970 to work in a section that was concerned with Black Power for around a year.

@ucpinquiry He was then posted to the Bomb Squad from 1971-74, and during this time had dealings with the SDS, but did not at first consider himself a member of the unit.

@ucpinquiry At this time the Bomb Squad was conducting surveillance of the Angry Brigade; he worked alongside Brice (who we'll hear from later today).

@ucpinquiry He served the unit as a DI towards the end of 1973, working in an admin role.
He helped the SDS by purchasing 12 cars for the undercovers to use, and setting up second safe house for the #Spycops

@ucpinquiry He was tasked with improving the #spycops promotions exam record – he ran classes for them weekly sessions at the safe house that lasted 3-4 hours.
Only three of his six students passed these exams.

@ucpinquiry He states that low morale was a known issue, and he was not the only officer brought in to help solve this problem.

He says people were recruited in a random way, at the time by HN294 who he describes as the unit's ”kingpin”, running the unit as a “fiefdom”.

@ucpinquiry He says he wasn't involved in choosing targets or the officers' reporting, or any liason with outside agencies like the security services.

@ucpinquiry He says he doesn't know about many of the other issues we've heard former officers being questioned about this week

the use of deceased children's identities

sexual relationships with targets (which he thinks would have been unacceptable),

@ucpinquiry or

other legal issues, such as being arrested and using a cover name in court, etc...

@ucpinquiry He said that personal details were routinely included in Special Branch reporting – there was nothing unusual about the stuff that #spycops would include in theirs.

@ucpinquiry About overtime, he noted that members of the SDS received fairly high overtime payments, and remembers that Phil Cooper (HN155) received the most – however he doesn't think this money affected the length of time they spent on the unit or their reporting.

@ucpinquiry You can read his full statement at ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

@ucpinquiry After this, some more documents were 'introduced' to the record
– relating to HN294, a DS who was in the unit from 1969-74

HN332 1968-72,

Derek Kneale HN819, 1974-76,

and David Bicknell HN357, who was Superintendent until 1977.

@ucpinquiry HN322 has not provided a statement due to ill health; the others are deceased.

You can now download these documents from the #spycopsinquiry website – see ucpi.org.uk/hearing/ucpi-t…

@ucpinquiry Today's uploads include some handy Organograms explaining who was in the unit – see ucpi.org.uk/publications/1… and ucpi.org.uk/publications/1…

#Spycops

@ucpinquiry Today's only witness is Derek Brice (HN3378).
He'll be giving evidence in person, but those following it on youtube will only hear the audio, not see him.
As ever, it (and our tweeting) is subject to a 10-min delay.

#spycopsinquiry

@ucpinquiry In the meantime, you can now download his written statement from ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

@ucpinquiry We began by hearing about his career in the police...
He joined the police at very end of 1957, as a (teenaged) Senior Cadet, and applied to join Special Branch before completing two years of service.
He left the police force in October 1974.

@ucpinquiry He cannot remember any specific training when he first joined Special Branch – the Inquiry asked him about a 2-week course but he doesn't remember this.

Asked about attending a Bramshill course in later 1973, he does.

@ucpinquiry He can't remember being trained about the legal limits of police powers
When asked further he admitted knowing about the limits on an officer's powers of entry, search & seizure.
But had no memory of receiving advice about how this related to his position as an undercover officer

@ucpinquiry In his written statement he refers to some guidance being circulated about avoiding acting as an agent provocateur. He recalls being in the Branch when these came out, but not if it was when he was in the SDS or not.

@ucpinquiry We saw ucpi.org.uk/publications/h…
Part of this document is read out and he says it rings some bells.

@ucpinquiry Did he bear in mind the need for the police to maintain the respect and approval of the public?
Yes

Was he aware of police discipline regulations?
Yes

@ucpinquiry He worked in C Squad many times throughout his career – this includes returning as a Detective Inspector, then joining the new C1 SB Bomb Squad.

@ucpinquiry Asked about what his C Squad role involved, he said he would have been supervising enquiries, probably.
He says they learnt what to do through experience.

@ucpinquiry He can't remember how material was collected and retained, says he doesn't remember much about where intelligence was arriving from, admits remembering sometimes information was forwarded on to A8 (the uniformed public order unit).

@ucpinquiry Did he ever pass on requests for intelligence himself?
No he didn't

What about the Security Services requests?
He says he “can only assume it was because they were a subversive element”

@ucpinquiry Today's #spycops bingo – he's said “I don't recall” approximately 20 times in the last 5 minutes.

Occasionally he apologises for this.

@ucpinquiry He joined the Bomb Squad as their SB Inspector – there was also a C1 Inspector. Conrad Dixon was the Bomb Squad 's Chief Superintendent ( with TN0047 acting as his staff officer)

However Brice claims that he was unaware of Dixon's previous role as founder and head of the SDS.

@ucpinquiry There's some confusion about exactly when Brice joined the SDS himself – his time with the unit lasted either 9 or 20 months – today he clarified that he probably joined in the spring of 1973, so it was 18 months.

@ucpinquiry In his written statement, he claimed that an officer told him about Special Branch that “nobody talks about it”
The Inquiry wanted to establish whether he meant this to refer to the SDS or SB more widely but he says he meant the entire Branch (which seems a little unbelievable)

@ucpinquiry In his statement he says he didn't formally join the SDS as such – but seems to have drifted into working with them due to his involvement in the Bomb Squad

@ucpinquiry He was shown the Organogram – the diagram

Does he remember how many officers were there in C Squad ranked Sergeant or Constable?
No

@ucpinquiry He mentioned the links and overlap between the work being done by the SDS and the Bomb Squad...
Was he aware of these two units being jointly supervised at all?
No

@ucpinquiry He couldn't confirm that officers were transferred to SDS work due to word of mouth recommendations, even though it seems that's what happened with him.

He recalls Greenslade – but doesn't recall if he had anything to do with his transfer from Bomb Squad duties to the SDS office

@ucpinquiry Geoffrey Craft (HN34) – who's due to appear tomorrow – also said that he thought he'd been transferred following a recommendation by Greenslade.

He doesn't remember this either.

@ucpinquiry What qualities do you think an SDS officer needed?
“A caring approach” he said

@ucpinquiry More questions about training/ handover
Greenslade was quite an experienced officer was he not?
He sort of snorted at this and said if someone had said that he must accept it...

@ucpinquiry Did he feel well equipped for his new role at the SDS having spent 14 years in the Branch?
Yes

He hadn't performed any undercover work.

@ucpinquiry There was no formal training.

He does not recall being given any info or guidance in writing.

He does not recall the black folder (that's been mentioned by other witnesses from the 70s)

@ucpinquiry He recalls HN294, who was his immediate superior, the Chief Inspector of the unit, but not any discussion with him about the purpose of the SDS.

@ucpinquiry Could he tell us more about how intelligence was diseminated to A8?

He responded that this would have been done by someone at a higher level - “higher than me” and when asked if this meant a Chief Inspector or even higher, said “probably higher than that”

@ucpinquiry Did he learn more about the unit's remit when he joined?

He thinks he probably learnt most stuff on the job.

@ucpinquiry At para 100 of his statement, he stated that some orgs were pacifist and caused no problems. Did he learn this while at the SDS?
"I can't say, I'm afraid"

@ucpinquiry If he had realised something like that about a group that an officer was infiltrating, while he was DI, would he have reviewed their deployment?

He can't answer that either

@ucpinquiry Asked about the relationship between C Squad and the SDS, he referred to the Organogram.

He admitted that there would have been opportunities for dialogue, as they were all in the same corridor at New Scotland Yard, not that he recalled any such conversations happening.

@ucpinquiry Any understanding of the relationship between the SDS and the Security Services?

No

@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/m…
Finally, he'd already been provided with a copy of a memorandum dated January 1974 – signed by HN294 – according to this the two of them attended a meeting with the Security Services.

@ucpinquiry In it, HN294 records the SDS agreeing to assist the SS with intelligence about groups to the left of the Communist Party.

@ucpinquiry He says that information would be “freely available”
but that the #spycops were precluded by Home Office instructions from any action likely to attract an accusation of them being agents provocateurs.

@ucpinquiry Does he recall any discussion of this within the unit?
No

There was then a 15 min break for the #spycopsinquiry

@ucpinquiry After a break, we returned to hear more about Brice's role in the unit supervising the #spycops
He says he would describe it as “welfare officer”; in his statement he calls it “quartermaster”.

@ucpinquiry Asked about undercovers being compromised
– in particular 3 officers (quarter of the Squad) being unexpectedly withdrawn from the unit shortly before or just when he joined
HN45
HN348 (a female officer)
and Jill Mosdell...

@ucpinquiry The incident that led to this made it into the Annual Report.
Didn't HN294 mention it to you?
No – and he claims not to recall the two women at all.

@ucpinquiry Targets and tasking next..

In the absence of any info about the #spycops activities, and the groups they were infiltrating, how could he fulfil his welfare role?
He said it was “based on trust that they were doing the job they were supposed to be doing” - he saw them frequently.

@ucpinquiry Was part of his role to review their deployments?
Ideally it would have been, yes, “but it was very difficult”

@ucpinquiry Did he carry out any appraisal of the target groups and their potential for public disorder?
He doesn't seem to have bothered doing this, he thought his job was just to appraise the officers.

@ucpinquiry So how did he do this?
By how much intelligence they delivered
So you could monitor that every week?
“I couldn't vouch for the authenticity of the information, no”

@ucpinquiry Did he ever speak to them if there was a problem?
He doesn't recall

@ucpinquiry In his written statement he said there was no guidance about whether or not the #spycops should take up roles of responsibility within the groups they spied on, and they didn't need to seek permission to do so.

@ucpinquiry Did he ever seek guidance from his superiors about this issue?
No
Did he think about how appropriate it was?
He doesn't remember

@ucpinquiry HN353 has said that he was told by a back office manager not to take up such a position – do you recall giving him this advice?
No
(at the time the two back office managers were him and David Smith)

@ucpinquiry He remembers HN298.
HN298 was arrested, prosecuted and convicted in court, in his cover name, 'Mike Scott'.
Were you made aware of this case when you joined the unit?
No
Do you recall any conversations within the unit about this case?
No

@ucpinquiry According to David Smith (yesterday) the two of them would regularly discuss issues that arose. But he doesn't remember any examples of this.

@ucpinquiry So was it mostly a case of reacting rather than being proactive in guiding the officers?
He can't comment on this.

Did he have a clear idea in his head of what his welfare role entailed?

@ucpinquiry There was a period when he acted up (in HN294' absence due to ill health) – until mid 1974 – he was Acting Chief Inspector
he was asked if the 'buck stopped with him' at this time?

He admitted that it probably did, and commented that he might have gone further up if necessary.

@ucpinquiry Asked about the management style of HN294 – described by Greenslade as a “kingpin” who ran the unit as a “fiefdom” - he broadly agreed with this.

So HN294 tended to keep the decision-making to himself?
The man is dead – he retorted – but yes.

@ucpinquiry Derek Kneale was brought in as Chief Inspector.
David Bicknell was made Superintendent – Brice described him as an “approachable senior officer” and said “obviously life would be a little easier – he was there if we wanted him”

@ucpinquiry Another part of his job was to procure vehicles for the unit.
Did each officer have their own?
He's not sure

@ucpinquiry Until early '73 there was a pool of 3-4 vehicles shared by the whole unit – was he aware of this?

“I think that's highly likely”

@ucpinquiry When he was CI, working in the back office with Smith, were you responsible for looking after the new recruits while they were doing their time in the office?

@ucpinquiry Brice said that “very often” he wasn't in the office himself – but it's unclear where else he was, apart from his visits to the safe house twice a week.

@ucpinquiry HN300 joined during his time.
So did HN353, HN351 and HN200
He doesn't recall all of these people, only two of them.

He claims not to remember HN297 (Richard Clark) at all from his time in the SDS – but knows who he is.

@ucpinquiry All of these officers created a cover name using the identity of a deceased child. We saw one example – HN353

He says he does not remember HN200 challenging this practice.

@ucpinquiry In his evidence to the Herne Inquiry, David Bicknell said this practice was a “practical solution to a problem” to create “plausible” false identities.

He says he never had any discussions about this matter with David Bicknell

@ucpinquiry Did he give much thought to how robust his officers' cover stories/ identities were?
No

@ucpinquiry Asked about what we've heard about everyone learning 'on the job' he said that meeting collectively was an advantage - “they could pick each other's brains”

@ucpinquiry HN200 has stated that he would go to senior officers if he needed advice about how to do his job. Does Brice recall any interactions with him?
No

@ucpinquiry HN351 HN353 and HN200 were all sent to infiltrate the International Socialists (IS) – were you involved in making decisions about those deployments?

@ucpinquiry He's not sure but thinks there was only one #spycop in IS when he joined

So why do you think another one was sent in?

“It made sense to have an alternative” he said

@ucpinquiry We''ve heard that there were two benefits to these gatherings at the safe house:
They offered managers a chance to:
1) discuss and identify problems and future targets

@ucpinquiry 2) assess the behaviour of the undercovers so any pressures -operational or otherwise- could be diagnosed and remedied

Is this a fair description? Yep

@ucpinquiry He's described it as
“A gutsy job, which was awful to do and scary at times” - how did he form this opinion?
He replied – undercover work was risky and could only be done by certain people

@ucpinquiry He spoke of the benefits of this safe house socialising and recreation for the #spycops, the camaraderie

He said a typical day involved them all eating lunch together.
They usually left at around 4pm.

@ucpinquiry He agreed that some officers wrote their reports at meetings; others handed in handwritten notes – he would collect these – he doesn't remember how often David Smith attended the safe house.

@ucpinquiry Can he tell us more about the number of reports that came in each week?
No

@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
We saw this report, signed off by Brice.

Does he remember any incidents when he found something outrageous or untrue, and needed to question the officer concerned?
No

@ucpinquiry He was asked about an incident concerning HN299/342
He's told the Inquiry that he recalls conversations with Brice and the CI - being given specific instructions to attend certain meetings & events.
Brice doesn't recall this.

@ucpinquiry What did you mean when you mentioned officers having a “sticky time”?
The nearest explanation he can give is that sometimes officers maybe got apprehensive about being exposed.

@ucpinquiry He was also asked something else about HN343 – who has described in his witness statement how he had enough of being deployed – he was a young single man and his work interfered with his personal life and relationships, and said that he asked to leave the unit.

@ucpinquiry Does he recall this officer?
He doesn't remember any conversation about his wishing to leave but says it sounds reasonable that he would have felt like this.

@ucpinquiry After another short break...

The Inquiry sought some clarification from a point made in Brice's written statement – bout Smith and the CI having a “direct line of communication” which excluded him – what did he mean by this?

@ucpinquiry He explained that their desks sat side by side; he didn't have s desk, because he didn't need one (!)

@ucpinquiry He'd also said that sometimes officers didn't bring up welfare issues.
Did this mean that he had to supervise them closely and keep an 'ear to the ground'?
Yes

@ucpinquiry He went on to say that he'd look at their “usual and unusual mannerisms” and perhaps invite them for a chat if he had concerns.

@ucpinquiry He says he's surprised to hear that Greenslade has stated in his evidence that morale was known to be low in the unit, and this is why he and other officers were brought in.

@ucpinquiry He referred to meeting and eating together – did they drink alcohol during those afternoons in the safe house?

@ucpinquiry He says no, they did not. He says they “went their separate ways” at 4pm so he doesn't know if anyone went drinking after this (but infers that he wasn't invited along, if they did)

@ucpinquiry There were no female undercovers in the unit in his time, were there?
No, none
So it was a male dominated workplace?
He concedes that it was, so”numerically, a fair statement to make” (!)

@ucpinquiry He's mentioned “friendly banter” in the safe house

Does he recall any banter about women, sexual relationships etc?

No he claims not to – nothing that caused him any concern.

He claims he would have “dealt with” what he calls “banter about females”

@ucpinquiry His own witness statement was brought up on screen.

What things did you think officers were keeping from the managers?

He wittered on about having to take things “at face value” - “there may be things I wasn't told”.

@ucpinquiry Paragraph 117 of his statement refers to him being “pretty confident they all went home eventually” - asked to explain this, he made some comments about how things were different in the 70s...

@ucpinquiry “maybe life was more simple and straightforward” then,
people didn't cohabit as much, they didn't have mobile phones tracking their locations etc....

@ucpinquiry ..and then spoke about how the #spycops could have gone back to their “ordinary life as it was in those days” in the evenings after these political meetings, and spend time with their families.

@ucpinquiry Was there a possibility of one of the #spycops developing a deeper relationship (friendship or more) with someone they were spying on?

@ucpinquiry He says it's all conjecture on his part – he keeps talking about it being a “possibility” rather than something he knows for sure.
He has seen the national press since.

@ucpinquiry We saw
ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
Memorandum from May 1974, written by CI Kneale.

There's a reference to HN300, a “married” man, living with a “wife and child”who wishes to join the unit.

@ucpinquiry And one to Richard Clark (aka HN297) another “married man, aged 29, with children” who wishes to join.

In your time, all of the #spycops were married – was that a deliberate policy?

Brice: It could have been, yes

@ucpinquiry Yes, he could have raised concerns about who was recruited, but doesn't recall ever doing so

According to Bicknell, recruiting married officers meant there was less of a temptation for them to enter sexual relationships during their deployments.

@ucpinquiry The Inquiry pressed him further – was this a “live issue” by mid 1974 – a risk that male officers would have intimate relationships?

He said he couldn't answer that question specifically – obviously it was always a risk, but “how would I have known?” he kind-of chuckled.

@ucpinquiry The officers' job was to infiltrate groups, pretend to be single and befriend people, wasn't it?

Brice isn't sure they ever had to say whether they were single or married

@ucpinquiry Bicknell also says that he thought two years should be the maximum length of deployment.

Did you have concerns about longer deployments?

He thinks Bicknell's opinion is reasonable.

@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
We saw an appraisal of HN297.

@ucpinquiry We also heard about HN300, who had a reputation for “falling in love all over the place”
Were you aware of this?
No - “I didn't know the man very well”

@ucpinquiry HN297 also had a reputation within the Branch – with one of his former colleagues describing him as a “carnivore”
Were you aware of this?

@ucpinquiry No

Did you form any view at the time based on your observations?
Brice says he does not remember Clark (HN297) at all.

@ucpinquiry NB: HN300 spent time in the small back office with Brice

@ucpinquiry So you've told us that you would raise concerns if you had any....

@ucpinquiry If you knew that an officer had joined the unit, with a good reputation in terms of “work product” and a wide and therefore “stable home life”, but a reputation as a womaniser, what would you think about their suitability for undercover work?

@ucpinquiry Brice says for him the most important issue was trust.

@ucpinquiry Inquiry: So it was a balancing exercise?
Brice: “I find that question difficult to answer really”

@ucpinquiry He talked about how one-to-one meetings could be helpful if #spycops were struggling with their work, home life or anything else – the managers were “available to discuss” things

@ucpinquiry He described himself as a “first port of call”, who could bring “solace”, but admitted that he couldn't recall having any of these important one-to-one meetings

@ucpinquiry What constituted “good intelligence”?
Asked what influenced the decision about when to withdraw someone from the field, Brice said “of course there's a temptation to keep it going whilst things were looking to be good”

@ucpinquiry He claimed that their welfare took precedence

@ucpinquiry Next we saw the unit's Annual Report from 1974
ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
At the time when Bicknell became the unit's Superintendent, the unit was moved under the supervision and control of S Squad.

@ucpinquiry Brice said he didn't see any big difference as a result of this structural change in the Branch.

The Annual Report was accompanied by a letter to the Home Office, who funded the #spycops unit

@ucpinquiry By 1974, he was “on the way out” - he said “ I wasn't exactly on demob leave” but gives the impression that he was already thinking ahead to his departure from the force.

He pointed out that Kneale was already around (as Chief Inspector) by this time.

@ucpinquiry He can't explain why the change was made.
He says he never saw the letter at the time, and shouldn't have done.
But he would “heartily endorse” the contents – he felt the unit was successful in that it gathered information and remained “pretty secure” throughout this time.

@ucpinquiry After this, we stopped for a lunch break. There will be some more questions for today's witness afterwards.
#spycopsinquiry

@ucpinquiry some live reaction LIVE at twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1…

@ucpinquiry We'll be restarting soon at the #spycopsinquiry - there may be a few questions for Derek Brice - watch at

@ucpinquiry The first question was about the safe house – you said that it made sense to have a second, alternative safe house. What was the thinking? To avoid unwelcome attention ?
"Yes, of course. And also in case we had to vacate”

@ucpinquiry What was it about the manner and management style of HN294 that made him unapproachable?

@ucpinquiry Brice said it was “just his personality”, he came across as a bit dour, someone who “kept a lot to himself”, adding that they had a “functional” working relationship but not much more.
He didn't come to the safe house or interact much with the undercovers.

@ucpinquiry Why do you think Greenslade said he ran the unit like a fiefdom?
Brice wouldn't have used that term but sees what is meant by it – HN294 “kept his cards close to his chest” and other people operate differently.

@ucpinquiry HN45 was withdrawn following some kind of compromise. Brice says he wasn't aware of this so can't comment further

@ucpinquiry Was Geoffrey Craft ever on the Bomb Squad?

“Not in my time”.

@ucpinquiry How come you're so confident that you didn't discuss the use of dead children's identities with Mr Bicknell, or ever go along to Somerset House with an officer?

@ucpinquiry Brice said it wasn't ever in his mind, he doesn't recall it but has a hunch this practice was only adopted after he left the unit.

NB: he has spent all morning telling us about all the other things he doesn't remember clearly

@ucpinquiry for example:
He doesn't remember anyone in Special Branch talking about the Day of the Jackal book at the time.

@ucpinquiry One more topic – by mid 1974 there was an appreciation of the risk of officers engaging in inappropriate intimate relationships – did Brice ever appreciate this risk?

“It wasn't something that occupied my thought processes when I was on the SDS” he claims.

@ucpinquiry Were you aware of any other measures put in place to mitigate this potential risk of #spycops getting "too involved" in the groups they infiltrated (apart from recruiting married men)?

No

@ucpinquiry With the benefit of hindsight, could more have been done at the time to prevent this?
Brice: Well yes, but..

He went on to say that ”nothing's 100% in this world”
“We were doing the best we could at that time”

@ucpinquiry Brice said he wouldn't just “brush over” reputational concerns but is unwilling to “moralise” - and pointed out that both married and single men could have reputations for womanising.

@ucpinquiry Mitting had a question for the witness, about the events of 15th June 1974, in Red Lion Square – that led to the death of Kevin Gately. Does it ring a bell?

@ucpinquiry Does he remember this “striking and grim event”? asks Mitting

Brice says he's just been reminded now that he's being asked, referring to “an incident” in the Square – however he claims he didn't remember Gately's death or the ensuing Scarman Inquiry.

@ucpinquiry We saw the 1974 Annual Report again
ucpi.org.uk/publications/a…

Mitting points out sternly that Brice is the only person left alive who had managerial responsibility within the SDS...

@ucpinquiry Mitting is wondering if he remembers the #spycops provided uniformed police with any warning about the possibility of disorder before that demonstration?

Brice: it doesn't ring any bells.

@ucpinquiry Mitting: The Inquiry has not been able to retrieve any written documents about that incident – is it possible that the warning was communicated orally?

Brice: Not as far as I know

@ucpinquiry Mitting: Did such reports usually get communicated in writing?
Brice: Yes

That was it for today's hearing. The #spycopsinquiry returns tomorrow morning

#Spycops