Thread by @dhadjowa

Day 22 of the coronial inquest into Veronica Nelson's death in custody. This morning the court will continue to hear evidence from the justice administration experts in the continued "hot tub" process
Webex link: csvic.webex.com/csvic/onstage/…
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Justice Conclave: Dr Amanda Porter Melbourne Law School; Joanne Atkinson Koori Court; Elena Campbell CiJ; Lee-Anne Carter and Kin Leong VALS; Melinda Walker LiJ; Jessica Thomson VLA; Aunty Marjorie Thorpe and Uncle Ted Wilkes Elders for FLS; Adam Wilson FLS.

Members of Stakeholder Panel: Asst Commissioner Russell Barrett Victoria Police; Simon Hollingsworth CEO Mag Court; Lawerence Moser and Dan Nicholson Legal Aid; Melissa Westin Deputy Commissioner Dept of Justice.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Coroner notes 45% of Prisoners are discharged without having served a sentence; 60% of Aboriginal women. Asks about the cost of incarcerating a Prisoner per day
Answer: It varies depending on security, there is a weighted average, “I would hate to guess off the top of my head”

Asked whether the Justice Conclave would support a recommendation which recognises substance use disorders being included in the Bail Act as a type of mental illness, Adam Wilson responds, "These are big questions, but we have consensus that we would"
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Mel Walker agrees with consensus, with caveat that there could be unintended consequences: The absence of diagnosis from a practitioner if individual is required to establish this fact & drug addiction could be taken into risk & potentially cause further delays or bail refusal

Counsel asks Justice Conclave about obligation of Vic Pol to disclose info that they are aware of, which could be favourable towards a bail application
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Mel Walker speaks on it being inappropriate for police to have an opinion on a no. of s3AAA “surrounding circumstances” [Bail Act] such as availability of treatment or support services at first remand [police station/before court] because an appropriate referral hasn’t been made.

Mel Walker explains that it then falls to a police officer’s consideration of what they believe is relevant to disclose or not, whether that officer is of the opinion that it is in favor of the accused person's bail or not:"Police remand summaries are designed to secure a remand”

Asked about their support for a recommendation for a review of remand documentation to make it, ‘A less partisan adversarial document’ [that primarily addresses reasons to remand and doesn't necessarily address reasons not to remand], Conclave says they are supportive of this

The Justice Conclave state their support for a review of remand documentation to make it less adverserial and recommend that this review be done in consultation with stakeholders

Asked whether they are in agreement that there needs to be some sort of express obligations on police to disclose other material that's favorable to an accused person [in an application for bail], the Justice Conclave responds, yes.

Counsel asks if the Conclave has a view about whether a bail decision-maker who remands an Aboriginal person in custody should be required to record their consideration of s3AAA measures, Conclave of consensus view that bail decision-makers should do this.

Doctor Amanda Porter speaks to the inadequacies of the oral and written reasons that were given by the bail-decision-maker in Veronica's case. Failures included copying and pasting recommendations from the record that involve factual circumstances that didn't apply to the case

Dr Amanda Porter: "The audio recording [of Veronica’s bail hearing] was entirely bereft of even one reference to Veronica's Aboriginality” [it was only in the written reasons]
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Questions move to the Justice Stakeholder Panel, with Julian McMahon for Fiztroy Legal Service putting to the panel that the test for bail should be radically revisited
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel for FLS suggests to the panel that reversed onus test should be, “simply be taken out of the bail Act and the Bail Act should be the subject of some significant legislative reform”
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel puts to the panel that bail should be the [subject to] a “very strong presumptive norm” and that bail should only be refused in very limited circumstances (genuine risk to personal safety of members of the community and genuine risk of flight from jurisdiction)

Counsel for FLS puts to the panel the need to, “pay serious attention to the explosion in numbers of Aboriginal women in custody.” In the last 10 years, there's been a 440% increase in the number of Aboriginal women in custody.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel for FLS: "Between 60 and over 80% of Aboriginal women entering custody in recent years are on remand and sentence. So these are catastrophic and explosive numbers"
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel suggests, "for the panel [including Vic Pol Asst. Comm & Dept of Justice] to consider... the data is the message. The reforms [of] the Bail Act ..have had catastrophic consequences for the Aboriginal community and indeed wider communities."
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

The court hears that while the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody recommended imprisonment should be a last resort, current data & facts on the ground clash with this. Q's put to panel on need for reform of Bail Act, changes at police station level and Mag level

Counsel for FLS: "The Victoria Police Aboriginal cultural awareness program training states that Aboriginal people are incarcerated at significantly higher rates and that Aboriginal women are the fastest-growing segment of the prison population."
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel for FLS: "The number of Aboriginal women in prison is exploding. In order to address that, we must address bail and appropriate accommodation for people struggling with trauma and substance issues"
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel puts to Conclave that reverse onus test in the Bail Act should be removed & there should instead be presumption that police grant individual bail to [alleged] offenders except in particular circ's (genuine risk to community safety & genuine risk of flight from jurisd'n)

Conclave gives evidence that there is a, ‘very clear consensus [between members of the Conclave] that reverse onus test should be jettisoned from the Bail Act’
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Campbell: "It's by no means a radical proposition to suggest a complete jettisoning of these incredibly damaging [Bail Act] provisions..these reforms have been a complete & unmitigated disaster for the majority of people who come into contact with the criminal justice system."

Dr Porter is asked to comment on the importance of addressing this issue of police culture and reverting to a norm that police could grant bail to the accused, except in exceptional circumstances.

Dr Amanda Porter: “I believe that the idea of a culturally competent police is an oxymoron in terms, it's a complete nonsense…"
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Dr Amanda Porter: "I support the statements that have been made unanimously by the panel in regards to the need for urgent reform of the bail laws. The Bail Act in this state is one of the most draconian bail acts in the entire country.”
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Dr Porter: "I agree with the statistics stated earlier..60-80%. of Aboriginal women in DPFC are on remand. Only 3 days after I submitted my own statement [to this inquest], there was another death in custody. There is a crisis in this state and there needs to be urgent change.”

Dr Amanda Porter: "Legislative change and law reform is one aspect...but the everyday operations of Victoria Police also have to be brought under the microscope"
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Dr Porter: "Instead of seeing arrest as a last resort [rec'd by RCIADIC] we see in the case of Veronica, a woman my age walking in the CBD, minding her own business & being arrested as a first resort in a way that just simply wouldn't see happen to say a white lawyer in Toorak"

Aunty Marjorie Thorpe: "That's been the problem...reform in relation to these matters, has been commission after commission, inquiry after inquiry..."
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Aunty Marjorie Thorpe: "To have the solution be some cultural education process or practice that people can learn in a couple of days to make them competent to deal with people from different cultures is ridiculous."
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Aunty Marjorie Thorpe: "We're insulted that you are the people who are fronting up and presenting these educational cultural practices to make people more competent... it's quite laughable, actually... it just doesn't equate with the reality of our people's lives."

Aunty Marjorie Thorpe: "The profiling of our people, including myself & my partner when we're driving to the shop is.. it's frightening that we are subjected to that..and [we] are elders..let alone young people... Aboriginal people who are picked up because they are Aboriginal."

Aunty Marjorie Thorpe: "The Royal Commission recommendations have not been effectively implemented, and they should have been."
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Aunty Marjorie Thorpe: "I was also on the Reconciliation Council for six years and the reason that we didn't reconcile...was the country was too racist."
#JusiceForVeronicaNelson

Aunty Marjorie Thorpe: "It's about humane treatment. We haven't been treated humanely in this country since the arrival of the of the boats from Britain and nothing has changed. And our people are facing ongoing human rights abuses."
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Aunty Marjorie Thorpe: "All we ask is humane treatment as human beings by the State. And that's not happening and why not?"
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Aunty Marjorie Thorpe: "And sadly, people are being asked to give, you know, dual education lessons about what it means [to be Aboriginal] ..well that doesn't cut it, and that's what the problem is as well."
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Aunty Marjorie Thorpe: "It's not about propping up the systems. It's about proper respect, proper recognition of our rights in this country, and one of them is that we're the First People of this Country and we've never been properly treated."
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Final questions of the Conclave concern bail app's at Magistrates Court & the proposition that before Magistrate refuses bail to an Aboriginal person, the Mag. be required by law to articulate in open court a series of tests and proposition, so aspects of 3AAA are articulated

The suggestion is that before refusing bail, Magistrate req'd to read out loud: "I’ve considered each element of s3AAA… questions of vulnerability, disadvantage, the applicant's health, applicant's family situation, q of individual trauma and individual..& provision of RCAIDC"

On the proposition that before any Aboriginal person is remanded in custody [imprisoned], a Magistrate must articulate and consider each of these things under s3A of the Bail Act in open court, the Justice Conclave says it would support this
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Uncle Ted adds: Too many times in my experience there have been people committed into prison and into court systems through what we call “soft crime”…In Veronica's position is certainly what I would say was "soft crime", if it was crime at all.

Uncle Ted cont: The racism in this country is still so profound. And we would say, its illogical in a sense for us to even try to make incursions into the justice system because racism won't allow us.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Lee-Anne Carter adds in response to the proposition that a Magistrate must articulate and consider each of the elements under s3A: That sort of transparency within decision making is always welcome. However, it can't be tokenistic. It can't be an exercise of just ticking a box.

Lee-Anne Carter cont: It was mentioned earlier that data is the message…and we talked about goodwill. But, goodwill at the end of the day isn't enough to stop deaths in custody, or address the systemic issues that underlie those deaths in custody.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Aunty Marjorie: Veronica should never had ended up in the system in the first place… She was first incarcerated as a child when she was removed...the system failed her… She was a sick woman, and that should have been recognised from the outset...She was not treated her humanely

Aunty Marjorie: There's a lot of talk about this and that how long does that take? How long does the state have to take to deal with these issues properly? It's further abuse of our people..it's a further violations of our human rights

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Uncle Ted: ...the racism and the systems of control treat us all like criminals, and the point is that we have to find some way of making sure that people don't get locked up, that shouldn't be locked up in jail.

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

After break, questions around Bail Act and bail application process continue. Conclave comments on the issues with s 4 of the Bail Act, committing an [alleged] offence while on bail.

Melinda Walker [VLA]: “I have had accused people arrested and remanded for stealing an ice cream, for stealing sushi, or stealing a bottle of orange juice and by virtue of them being on bail the police have deemed it necessary to seek a remand [to hold the person in custody].”

Counsel for Aunty Donna Nelson begins questions, puts to the Asst. Commissioner for VicPol, “the police were bail decision-makers as far as [Veronica] was concerned. Would you accept that?”
Commissioner: Ultimately they made a decision to place it before the Magistrate

Nathwani, Counsel for Aunty Donna Nelson, recaps evidence from officer McDonald who 'could not recall a time he ever granted bail to a person based on exceptional circumstance threshold'
#JusticeforVeronicaNelson

Nathwani asks Victoria Police Asst Commissioner, Russell Barrett if there is a police directive from above for police to “pass the buck” to the Magistrates Court, rather than police assessing for and granting bail on grounds of exceptional circumstances
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

VicPol Assistant Commissioner Barrett responds to the question of whether police are directed from above to "pass the buck" to the Magistrates Court, and says it’s not police policy, but says that, "this is a very difficult question to answer"
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Nathwani references evidence before the court from VicPol Officer Payne about exceptional circumstances bail being granted to a person [by police] on ‘not even a handful of occasions’ due to directive coming from above.
Asst. Commissioner responds to say this "wouldn't be true"

Moving to unrepresented bail app's, Nathwani recaps earlier evidence from Jill Prior that unrepresented bail app's [as happened in Veronica’s case] should be avoided at all costs. Walker says she agreed "wholeheartedly" that there should not be any unrepresented [bail] app's.

Counsel for LACW puts to Justice Conclave that the abolition of reverse onus test (where onus is on the accused to show pre-trial detention is not justified, rather than on prosecution to show it is justified) would greatly simplify Victorian bail without weakening it in any way

Walker [for the Conclave]: "I agree that removal of reverse onus would greatly simplify the Bail Act. Politically it would be a radical amendment. I think it is a sensible amendment… it would be a more just system."
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel for LACW refers to evidence before the court that one of the police officers cannot recall a single time where he granted bail to a person in custody for having met the exceptional circumstances threshold. He asks the conclave if they are surprised by this statement

Carter: Does not surprise me at all. I don't believe and I can recall one situation through the years I've been working at the Custody Notification Centre [VALS]…I can’t recall one incident where someone with exceptional circumstances has been granted bail from police stations.

Counsel for LACW reviews powerpoint slide from VicPol training on ‘Amendments to the Bail Act’ section on “exceptional circumstances” [for granting of Bail], puts to Police Asst. Commissioner Barrett that the slide's training content for officers is “completely inadequate”

Asked if it needs to be made clear to all police in Vic that if someone may spend more time in custody if remanded than they would if sentenced, that this is a vital factor [for police in considering bail], the Asst Commissioner responds: 'I think it’s a relevant factor, yes'

Justice stakeholder panel are asked about police duties to act compatibly with human rights, and duty to give proper consideration to these in context of application for bail, including the right to a fair hearing
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel puts to panel that in order to comply w those duties, Vic Pol have a positive duty to gain relevant facts for appl of bail, including for Aboriginal people the distinct right to retain kinship ties.
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Counsel asks the Justice Stakeholder Panel, "how can a prosecutor comply with this obligation [to gain relevant facts on kinship ties for bail app] if they make no attempts to obtain details about what these kinship ties are?
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Justice Conclave: "It is incumbent on police and prosecutors to always take into account human rights… in the context of bail particularly, that the individual facts and circumstances must be considered before the very severe step of depriving the individual of their liberty

Counsel: How can you know if cultural or kinship rights are relevant if as prosecutor you don’t ask the questions?
Asst. Commissioner: Well, again when someone comes into custody they are asked about their Aboriginality
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Conclave: “There seems to be pressure on Veronica to have revealed all that information to police... Given the power dynamic.. in a custody setting, this role needs to be reversed. It’s incumbent on Victoria Police to make enquiries [re factors relevant to her app for bail]”

Conclave: “Police are quick enough to use substance or housing issue as a reason to argue for remand… you’ll see in LEAP documents [VicPol database] .. at least 78 entries for Veronica.. 19 medical.. history of family violence.. so it links to what info is going to be used for."

Conclave [cont.]: "If you have that info there that is relevant to someone [and their exceptional circumstances, including medical or family violence]... there should be a responsibility [on police] to put that forward [for bail]”
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel for VLA asks both Conclave & Stakeholder Panel q's on the position that accused person should not be required to present new facts at a bail application if the original bail app was within 2 days of arrest.
Conclave support this & states, "there ought to be no timeframe"

Adam Wilson: "Often it's the case that a person is in a high level of stress at that first bail application [with issues like full facts and circumstances not being articulated], so the opportunity should be there [for later bail application]"
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Asked by Counsel for VLA if they support the decriminalisation of minor offending, and creating summary versions of offences like shop theft [with which Veronica was charged] which would affect the need for bail to be activated at all, Justice Conclave confirms they support this.

Asked about proposal to expand the scope of the Koori Court, Nerita Waight confirms, yes, that the Victorian Aboriginal Legal Service (VALS) position is that Koori Court should be expanded to hear bail applications for both adults and children
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Aunty Joanne Atkinson says expansion of the Koori Court to hear bail applications would also need conversation and consultation with Community and with Elders, and that an expanded Koori Court best-placed to consider relevant factors for bail given presence and role of Elders

Nerita Waight says can't have a system where Aboriginal people only have Koori Court option & its expansion "does not discharge obligation on other courts to consider s3AAA factors incl. Aboriginality: "It's about service choice, something our communities have been pushing for"

After lunch, Counsel for VLA resumes and makes reference to evidence before the court stressing the importance of early provision services and opportunities for the involvement of services prior to someone getting to court.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Conclave is asked about the Merits Test in Bail Applications & their view on whether in bail applications for First Nations people the proper consideration of S3A would mean the very low merits of VLA will be met.

Conclave: S3A creates presumption of positive consideration for bail.. however one cannot ignore the extraordinarily difficult thresholds.. It doesn't make it an “easier” bail application… there wouldn’t have been any difficulty to get over the merits tests [In Veronica’s case]

The Conclave agrees that S3A lends merit, but even overcoming S3A, the reverse onus test [which requires an accused person to show 'compelling reasons' or 'exceptional circumstances' for them to be released on bail] still applies.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Nerita Waight, CEO, Victorian Aboriginal Legal Service (VALS): "At the moment legal services are under- funded in Victoria, Aboriginal people do not have adequate access to Aboriginal Legal Services"
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

The Coroner asks the Conclave their view on redefining the "risk test" for bail to a focus on the possibility of harm to another person and fleeing of the jurisdiction.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Thompson explains "unacceptable risk of reoffending" is often used even re risk of low-level offending, especially when there's involvement of drug & alcohol & it's used [by police] to suggest "unacceptable risk of reoffending" if past offences have related to drug & alcohol use

Speaking of this conflation of substance use, "unacceptable risk" and low-level offending, Thompson says, "I would suggest that that involves using incarceration to respond to what is essentially a health issue."
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Adam Wilson says Justice Conclave supports in principle the proposal to redefine the "risk test" for bail to risk of harm to another person or risk of fleeing the jurisdiction: "The simpler the better. This would lead to a lot of low-level actors getting caught in justice system"

Conclave notes that the bail systems can operate 'safely and effectively’ with the removal of existing risk thresholds and should move to the 'unacceptable risk' test. S3AAA could remain to assist considerations re whether or not there has been conditions to ameliorate any risk.

On factors contributing to Veronica’s failure to answer bail
Campbell: Some q's posed ...put the onus on Veronica [re] failing to answer…I'd suggest appropriate framing of the q needs to be what factors may have contributed to the system's failure to support [Veronica] to answer

Campbell: We need to stop assuming that the systems available through the court systems are adequate… this is not a criticism of the people working within this system....[programs are] not available all the time & certainly not available straight away when people need it.

Campbell: I've evaluated a lot of core programs and what you see is that they tend to drift or default to the needs of the system rather than the people using them #JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Carter: Courts often fail in their ability to set culturally appropriate bail conditions and in fact quite often they set unrealistic bail conditions…setting these sort of conditions in my experience is setting that person up to fail #JusticeForVeronicaNelson

CA asks if there are program models elsewhere that could be remodelled for Vic

Conclave: The Women Transforming Justice Model.. provides a combo of gender specific legal advice & outreach. [The model is] really effective in terms of supporting women to remain in the community.

Campbell: Yes, we need programs and yes, the ones that exist need to be better resourced, but we also need to have an informed understanding of what it takes for people to engage with those programs. Some of the needs that so many criminalised women have are complex & compounded

Campbell: Our system is predicated on the expectation that we wave a program in somebody's face, and they ought to gratefully participate.

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Lawrence Moser, VLA comments on cultural competence training: You can't expect people to undertake 4 hours of training & be competent in terms of knowing how to engage with Aboriginal people or how to understand what it is that we need across the system

Mr Moser: The countless [amount of] times we've heard from VicPol, Corrections Victoria and Justice providers about how we're going to do this wonderful training and we're going to roll it out. We're going to deliver it and it's going to be wonderful. It obviously isn't working.

Dr Porter: It's important to address...the monoculture of the judiciary workgroups at every point of the settler criminal justice system…it's fair to say that the workspaces are not representative of Aus society…they're overwhelmingly white settler, cis, hetero, abled

Dr Porter on training in the Judicial College of Vic: There's a number of examples of [non-compulsory] cultural seminars & conferences..I would add that they're also not formally assessed nor integrated, not continuing..This communicates something about how poorly it's valued

Dr Porter: Recommendations have been made about the importance of training & ongoing formal education at all stages. Since the countless reports (including RCIADC)...But I just wanted to reiterate those points made by others

Leanne Carter: Any organisation or person cannot call themselves culturally competent or culturally safe if after Veronica’s death they still believe that she was in the best possible place. No police cell or prison will ever be culturally safe.

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Reflecting on their recommendations over the course of their evidence, the Justice Conclave states, “there needs to be a health, humanity focus. This is what we were saying, instead of a punitive focus.”

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel for Percy Lovett asks Justice Conclave if they would agree, “during the time Veronica was in police custody & up to her remand, there was an onus shifted to her to challenge coded language, assumptions and stigma in her pursuit for bail?”

The response, “Absolutely, yes”

Counsel puts to stakeholder panel that Aunty Donna Nelson has said the criminal justice system is broken & that the inquest has heard expert evidence that Veronica was subject to direct or indirect racism. Counsel asks the panel if they accept that this occurs in their agencies.

Dep Commissioner Westin (Dept Justice) responds that evidence of discrimination that occurs is intersectional, not just race but women, people with substance abuse issues, ‘people from different backgrounds, people who have fallen through the cracks.’

Asked again if she accepts that discrimination occurs in Corrections, Westin responds: “I talk to every new recruit squad..about the need to understand where people who come into contact with the criminal justice system are coming from..."

Dr Amanda Porter asks for right of reply to some answers given by stakeholder panel, including by Vic Pol and Dept of Justice about practical impediments to improving the cultural safety of Aboriginal women in police and prison custody, and for the Magistrate's Court.

Dr Amanda Porter: We've spoken at length of the problems that exist at the level of workplace culture within the police, DPFC and Corrections Victoria...I think this culture of denial, of not hearing and of impunity, is what needs to be addressed here
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Justice Conclave concluding comments: On behalf of the panel, I want to personally acknowledge Aunty Donna & her strength. I want to acknowledge your pain & grief. I also want to acknowledge Percy...You guys have been here representing Veronica with strength, dignity & commitment

Justice Conclave cont: We as a panel want to acknowledge your strength. We also want to say that we hope that we have contributed to an outcome that makes change in this community, in this state, and in our nation, hopefully, around the way we treat Aboriginal people

We need to ensure the lessons learned here, on behalf of this panel and our community, Aunty Donna and Percy, that Veronica will never be forgotten. We are deeply saddened & we go away from here hoping that we honoured you & honoured Veronica in all of the comments we've made

Tomorrow the inquest will hear evidence from Tracy Jones, General Manager DPFC prison & Dr Foti Blaher, Chief Medical Officer, Correct Care Australia. Friday is Christine Fuller, Deputy CEO Correct Care. Please come to court to support Veronica’s Family on these 2 vital last days

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