Thread by @tribunaltweets

Resuming now.
AR: talking about GIDs and Transing away the gay
R Yes
AR Article about 5 former clinicians. Have you seen it before?
R Yes

AR These are v vulnerable kids. Complex histories and homosexulaity might be being igored

AR: It feels like conversion Rx for gay kids. They are adopting T identities after months of bullying

AR: June 2020 Transcripts of staff interviews into GIDS. In these 100 interviews,

AR - now discussing Dr. David Bell and his review of the service. 1/3 of staff members approached him.

AR - 1/3 of clinicians approached him. Do you recall that?
PR - not entirely my area but vaguely recall that.
AR - sense of children being rehearsed and did not share their parents urgency? Do you remember that?
PR - as much as I remember the rest.

AR - now reviewing the judgement in the Sonia Appelby case. Do you remember that?
PR - vaguely
AR - she was the safeguarding lead. Safeguarding fails and references to pervasive homophobia. You don't recall that?
PR - that's not my area of expertise.

AR - now the interim Cass review. Have you read it?
PR - only in brief.
AR - you'll agree with me it's a devastating critique of the service
PR - not without having reread it
AR - you'll agree the service was closed because of it.

PR - not sure.
AR - referring to staff reporting pressure to affirm. Do you see that? Also, diagnostic overshadowing, referred patients have complex needs, once trans diagnosis, no further attention to other mental health needs. Do you remember that.
PR - I only skim read it.

AR - complex interaction between sex & GI, societal pressure, etc. Do you remember reading that?
PR - only having skim read the report and its not my area of expertise.
AR - it's a bookmark for what's coming isn't it in the final review?

PR - Yes, apparently so.
AR - longer term f/u data is limited, including those who have received physical interventions. Including desistance, and detransition. Explains difference between the two. Truth appears to be that the numbers of regretters, desisters and

detransitioners are simply not known.
PR - inaudible response
AR - we don't know how many people actual regret and are actually gay and lesbians
PR - I don't agree.
AR - Do you know how many there are?
PR - no.
AR - then you do agree with me.

PR - the data is one sided I think we are only seeing the negative data.
AR - referring to data sources. Do you disagree with Dr. Hillary Cass then?
PR - I'm referring to the lived reality of trans people living happy fulfilled lives.
AR - but Dr Cass

is painting a very different picture.
PR - returns to the lived experience of trans people he knows.
AR - because of the trans people you know you are not concerned about the woeful standard of care for LGB and trans youth.
PR - we should all be concerned with this.

AR - you dismiss out of hand that there is something to be concerned about.
PR - I see trans people and young trans people living happy lives. This suggestion (Cass Report) is not consistent with what we see. Health care can always improve.

AR - even if you didn't read the Cass Report are you not now concerned by it?
PR - not consistent with my experience.
AR - they have concerns that are evidence based?
PR - they are expressing concerns.
AR - they are concerned with transing the gay away.

PR - not consistent with my experience.
AR - LGBA are concerned with protecting gay youth and advocating for them. It's not a conspiracy against trans people.
PR - I would disagree with that.

AR - now moving on to LGBA schools campaign. You are complaining about this campaign saying it is anti-trans.
PR - Yes.
AR - LGBA literature on schools campaign. We see concern - outside groups write RSE materials for school and they are not experts they are campaign groups.

PR - I see that.
AR - they are teaching children they are born in the wrong body.
PR - I don't see that in hear but I see that is what they are saying.
AR - concerns about wrong body narrative, gender nc, start to wonder they are born in the wrong body.

PR - I see they say that.
AR - let us go look at what some of your members are saying about this. Stonewall glossary. Being sexually attracted to women is a part of traditional masculinity. Being same sex attracted is inherently a GNC characteristic.

AR - if you're gay boy you are not masculine.
PR - I can see that where it leads you.
AR - now going on to definition of gender identity. 'innate sense of gender'. I'm struggling to understand, above it seems to be masculine or feminine.

PR - sex and gender aren't binary and are complex.
AR - let's focus on the definition. Doesn't seem to relate to the definition of gender above, although it uses the term gender as in male, female or other.
PR - I'm struggling to follow.

AR - it says male, female. These are words that describe biological sex, not gender as defined above. It also says here that gender is innate.
PR - this is a very complex area and a person identifies themselves in the way they identify themselves. It is not as binary as male

or female.
AR - we are talking about material that children might use to decide whether to go on to a medical pathway.
PR - I disagree, our members are providing helpful materials to young people struggling with their identity.
AR - a young person wouldn't look at these

words and attempt to figure out their identity.
PR - It's a very complex area, lots of organisations working in this area helping young people.
AR - lets go back to the definitions. Gender identity is about whether you instinctively relate to the gender stereotypes of your sex

PR - I feel like you're forcing me into dictionary definitions.
AR - I asked you earlier if you agreed with these definitions and you said yes.
PR - there are so many nuances here and its a complex area. These are Stonewall's definitions.

AR - now looking at the Genderbread person. Are you familiar with this. It is used in schools.
PR - yes it is used.
AR - GI is how you define in your head with how much you align with the gender norms for your gender.
(discussion of legibility)

AR - this is something for children to understand/
PR - it's a tool to help young people understand when used by professionals.
AR - it's given to children and refers to womaness and manness.
PR - its just a tool.
AR - it teaches children that

if that they may be born in the wrong body based on this controversial gender berry (red and blue berries).
PR - I don't know about this but I accept that it might be happening but I don't know how frequently.
AR - SW definition of trans, umbrella term. If you don't

relate to the gender norms of your sex, you are trans.
PR - I don't think it says that.
AR - looking at this material, do you see it is difficult to tell the difference between being gender NC and being trans.
PR - it's a tool to help explore their identity.

AR - is it reasonable to entertain that you are not succeeding with this tool.
PR - it's not a competition
AR - its not a stretch to relate the number of gay children being referred to GIDS to this notion that they are born in the wrong body.

PR - I disagree.
AR - what is happening is when a young person identifies as trans they are immediately affirmed as trans.
PR - I disagree. Affirmation is giving the room to explore.
AR - let's go back to what the clinicians said in the Cass Report, pushed to unquestioning

Affirmation ?
PR - I disagree and wasn't privy to what the clinicians knew.
AR - Do you agree that it is reasonable for LGBA to be concerned about the schools campaign?
PR - I disagree. Young people are being given access to information, the materials are about

exploring their identity.
AR - as a result of this information, a 4000% increase in girls, who are 70% non-heterosexual, being referred to GIDS. This LGBA campaign is entirely legitimate.
PR - I disagree. They are preventing trans people from exploring their identity.

AR - LGBA concerned with promoting anti-trans gender critical beliefs you say in your statement.
PR - yes.
AR - you are aware of the Forstater decision? The decision was that gender critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act. Widely shared and do not seek to destroy

the rights of trans people.
PR - I see that but there is a difference between holding those beliefs and how you express or press them.
AR - are you quite comfortable that gender critical beliefs are anti-trans?
PR - I am completely comfortable with my statement.

AR - you think that gender critical beliefs are that trans rights wholly inconsistent with women's rights and trans women do not deserve legal rights as women.
PR - some discussion but agrees that is what his statement says.
AR - referring to single sex services. Women at risk

PR - yes, single sex services.
AR - we agree that the Eq Act provides for single sex services.
PR - a mention of single sex services including trans women.
AR - but let's look at why: strength and men's tendency towards violence against women.

PR - I'm not an expert, I don't know if men are stronger or the statistics on male violence.
AR - as a society we have set aside some spaces for women so that they can have privacy dignity and safety from men. Those rights have nothing to do with gender.

If a TW is a woman, then they have the right to access those services and to be safe.
AR - I'm not asking you about TW. We do not provide services for feminine people and masculine people. We cannot say they are different in strength and propensity for violence.

PR - I don't know, it's possible, everyone is an individual.
AR - you don't accept that men are stronger and more prone to violence.
PR - I don't have those statistics. I'm not an expert.
AR - we exclude all male bodies because we have no way to distiniguish.

between the overwhelming number of men who are not violent and those who are.
PR - I can't answer this without thinking about vulnerable transwomen.
AR - going back to the interpretation of the Eq Act in your witness statement. You are wrong, but we are going to disagree.

AR - if your interpretation of the Eq Act is correct, then there will be people with male bodies in women's spaces.
PR - no, I don't think so. They will have transitioned.
AR - Under your interpretation a person with a male body without a GRC enters a female space

it then becomes a mixed sex space. Our hypothetical person has no GRC and enters a space set aside for female bodies. It becomes a mixed sex space.
PR - I can see that.
AR - it is not about painting trans people as invaders.
PR - It's about a balance that needs to be

struck between trans women who are vulnerable using women's services and making individual assessments.
AR - but we are not talking about individuals. We are talking about all spaces and how society organises itself.
PR - people who run those single sex services are

very good at making those assessments and providing services to trans women.
AR - you understand it's not just rape crisis but toilets, sports, all women's services.
J - time for afternoon break.

We are back. Room is very warm. Judge has given permission for everyone to remove their jackets.
AR: moving on. You complained about a tweet by Bev Jackson who observed that female lesbians being driven off lesbian dating apps. If you are told by the people running the site

that you cannot specify that you only want to meet female bodied people you are being denied service by the dating site based on your sexual orientation.
PR - I'm not on these sites and not a woman.
AR - you complained about this tweet, so I hope you can answer some questions.

PR - yes
AR - Do you agree that those lesbians are being denied service based on sexuality.
PR - I believe that dating site is interpreting the Eq Act in the same way as I do, to be inclusive of trans women.
AR - let go back to the Stonewall definitions. Is it reasonable

that a woman could be kicked off a lesbian dating site for that preference.
PR - The service is inclusive of transwomen.
AR - the definition of trans includes cross dressers. Does a lesbian have the right to exclude male cross dressers from her dating pool.

PR - if the service is inclusive, then a transwoman should be able to use that service.
AR - you are not focusing on the question. A woman is kicked off a dating site for specifying that she is only interested in female bodies. Is that reasonable?

PR - trans women should be able to access that service.
AR - we are not talking about trans women. We are talking about is it reasonable for lesbians to exclude men from their dating pool.
PR - back to trans women.
AR - it is clear that this is an example of a conflict

between the rights of LGB people and trans people.
PR - there is no such conflict.
AR - We are talking about lesbians being excluded from lesbian dating services.
PR - back to trans women, they have a right to use those services and not be excluded. This is trans exclusion.

AR - this is part of a wider complaint that LGBA has invented this push for wholesale acceptance of male lesbians as sexual partners to justify their 'transphobia'.
PR - Yes, that is right.
AR - Cotton Ceiling article BBC, October 2021. You do not mention this articlel.

in your witness statement.
PR - no I do not.
AR - reading out article. You assert this is invented. Have you read this article?
PR - yes.
AR - referring to tweets, Veronica Ivy, 'its transphobic to have a genital preference'

PR - I see this.
AR - SW gave a statement likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people or disabled people. Goes on to 'worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your preferences'. Do you see that?
PR - yes.

AR - she is comparing being a lesbian who does not want to date men to being a racist, fatist or ableist.
PR - I see that she said that yes.
AR - onto the cotton ceiling workshop, overcoming lesbians reluctance to have sex with transwomen. Workshop explores ways in which

transmisogny and transphobia create barriers and can be overcome. And coerce lesbians into sex.
PR - I see that but I disagree.
AR - on to Riley Dennis video. Not being attracted to trans people is transphobic.
PR - I see that.
AR - excluding a group of people from your

sexuality is bigoted. Do you agree with that?
PR - individuals have choices and no one should be forced to have sex with anyone they don't want to. On services, transwomen should have access to women's services, likewise for transmen.

AR - Dr Ivy, it is transphobic to have a general preference. Do you agree?
PR - people will be attracted to who they are attracted to.
AR - Making it simple - is it transphobic to say I will not accept people with penises?
PR - I think that is over simplified.

AR - I'm not talking about individual attraction. I'm talking about a person drawing a boundary around their sexual orientation. Is that transphobic?
PR - No, people can define their boundaries.
AR - but you can see that some people do say it is transphobic, including

Nancy Kelly the head of Stonewall. Let's go back and look at her comment. Months before the article appeared, Kelly attempted to have the article not go forward on the grounds that it portrayed trans women as predators and would be transphobic. Coming from the very top

of the LGBT activism tree, it is wrong for lesbians to have boundaries.
PR - I am not Nancy Kelly. And we need to be careful of the media climate these are written in.
AR - are you saying this is not true?
PR - I would disagree, I'm not sure that is what she is saying.

AR - if that is what she is saying (women should unlearn their sexual boundaries) that is homophobic?
PR - I don't believe that's what she said or meant. And its up to individuals to determine their sexual boundaries.
AR - its like the old days 'you haven't met the right man'

PR - I don't think it's like that at all.
AR - you should be worried as an LGBT organisation about women being told to unlearn their sexual boundaries. Shouldn't you?
PR - no one is our sector is saying that about lesbians. we need to consider the article and the source.

AR - perhaps that because the only people who you allow into your consortium are those who already agree with you?
PR - that's not correct.
AR - who is going to speak for these women? Lesbians are being subjected to homophobic abuses, that is the issue.

PR - I disagree, this all coming from a position of transphobia.
AR - you assert that LGBA does not believe trans LGB people don't deserve protections. Can you give me any examples of that?
PR - I can't right now.
AR - that takes us back to where we started.

If you don't think that a person with a female body can be a gay man, then it follows that that person cannot be granted the legal protections of a gay man. Do you think that's rational?
PR - no I don't think that is rational.
AR - you are working on the basis that it is same

gender attraction.
PR - I don't think that adequately reflects the state of play and reality today.
AR - do you think it's possible that there is no other charities that say what LGBA says, is that the full weight of the LGBT community comes down on those charities,

Is it possible that is why those charities are attacked?
PR - I don't think that is the case and many LGBT charities are attacked every day.
AR - what I am putting to you is that it is reasonable for you to hold that trans women are women and for LGBA to say that they are not.

PR - they are transphobic and focus on trans phobic activities.
AR - gender critical views are transphobic views?
PR - yes.
AR - you don't think that anyone that has gender critical views should be running a charity in the LGBT sector.

PR - I don't believe that any charity that is campaigning to remove the rights of trans people to live their lives safely and fully, should be allowed to exist.
AR - despite the fact that gender critical views are protected under the Eq Act.
PR - I'm not an expert.

But I understand that there is a difference between expressing those beliefs and holding those beliefs. And trying to remove the rights of trans people to live their lives.
AR - I will put it to you that you have created an echo chamber with no diversity of thought.

PR - I absolutely disagree, our sector is incredibly diverse and incredibly intersectional.
AR - no further questions.
J - any questions from Charity Commission counsel?
MG - question on closure of GIDS. Do you understand why?
PR - no I'm afraid I can't answer that.

MG - has press release on closure of GIDS shared with bench and with judges.
Judge releases PR as no further questions. Discussion of tomorrow's witnesses (names not clear). Witnesses will appear in person.
Closes proceedings for today.
Resuming tomorrow at 10 am.

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