Thread by @kurtwuckertjr

Attny: But this PedoCalvin and Faketoshi stuff is nasty. Do you tweet like this?
Wit: No
Attny: Why not?
Wit: I don't like it.
Attny: But you read these things? or retweet them?
Wit: Read, but I don't think I would retweet.
Attny: Why?
Wit: Language is instigating.

Attny: What about PedoCalvin or calling someone a fraud? Is this good to call someone? Are there consequences?
Wit: Well, I don't think it adds anything valuable...
Attny: These are a lot of messages though. Should someone be harassed for days?
Wit: Look at football fans!

Wit: In Crypto Twitter, if this was attacking anyone, it would be unacceptable. When it's directed at the head of the Fed or something, you're attacking the role. JPow, for example. Claiming to be SN, when knowing true bitcoin, will attract these campaigns like politicians.

Attny: So can we call Putin a mentally ill pedophile?
Wit: There are degrees of privacy and decorum...

Attny: You mentioned that's how muh culture expresses itself like hooligans. But you don't?
Wit: Many people follow but don't write. There are loose groups.
Attny: Does twitter show everyone everything?
Wit: There's an algo, but I don't know.

Attny: Hashtag and celebration. Is this good to direct people to harass a man?
Wit: It's directed at CSW's claim of SN. If it hadn't been that context, it would be strange to create a movement. Like in political movements.
Attny: Can you disagree with Craig without sayin "pedo?"

Wit: Yes
Attny: You mentioned colleagues use rough language on twitter. You accept this from your employees?
Wit: No. Maybe about projects with weaknesses but good marketing like #HEX.
Attny: Interesting.
Wit: Distinguishing between work and play time is unclear on twitter.

Attny: I express myself specifically.
Judge: On proof sessions in 2015-16, what was the atmosphere then and in 2019? Heated? Did hodlonaut fire this up?
Wit: The scaling splits drew lines for sure. I don't remember when BSV split was, but there was conflict in the era.

Wit: they tried to get people to go to BSV and it was positioned itself as a competitor by saying it was Satoshi's vision. It was misinformation, but people would get frustrated at the confusion.
Judge: anything else?
Wit: Underline: It's good to have free views of expression.

End of questions with Torbjorn Bull Jenssen from Arcane.no

Next Witness: Johan from somewhere technical. [Sorry]
Judge going over oaths stuff.
Plaintiff Attny: Background please
Wit: Masters in infosec theory, protocol dev in bitcoin and lightning. Work as Tech director at [can't hear him]
Attny: When did you learn about bitcoin?
W: '15

Attny: Professionally?
W: Full time
A: Remember when CSW Doxed?
W: Yes
A: thoughts then?
W: Not much. I was new at the time. But could be true.
A: When he came out, you remember?
W: Alarms went off because he didn't sound like Satoshi.

A: Thoughts on Gavin sign?
W: It was an uncommon way to submit evidence. Technical people wouldn't do it that way. Electrum is very popular and known. Signatures can be published publicly.
A: Gavin chose a message and something was added. Important?
W: ?

A: Can this be gamed?
W: It's from source. Use builds the wallet. So if they build it, they can control it. You can instruct the wallet to never approve the message whether it's valid or not. This is very easy. You can modify the wallet easily in that sense.

A: Sartre post: Opinion?
W: I read it when new. I read it again now and seems clearly like it's pretending to be technical, but really isn't.
A: Zooming in on Sartre post. Explain this please
W: It's terminal to instruct a computer to do an operation. It's showing how to validate

A: So SN7sig is what?
W: Looks like actual signature.
SIDE NOTE: I'm so sick of looking at the Sartre post lol
W: Explains this signature is a valid one.
A: If we dig in what else?
W: Hex Dump shows what's in the file expressed in another format.

More explaining of signatures and such on the Sartre post.

Clarification: This is Johan Toras Halseth from Firi. Formerly from Lightning Labs. 🦎⚡️

On-going discussion of the signatures, etc... It's still boiler plate explaining how it works to sign with private keys using Electrum and the sig file in Sartre post.

A: Is this a SN sig?
W: This is a known sig.
A: Is this a possible proof?
W: No. These are different, and the proof is not possible.
A: Reading from evidence on BBC signing in re public key. Talking about signed message with Rory Jones...

Here's the Sartre post, if you haven't read it. craigwright.net/blog/math/jean…

A: Are these files the same as in the blog posts?
W: Yes.
A: And if you try to verify, they would?
W: Yes
A: What does it mean?
W: The blog says it's a hash from Sartre speech. But a technical person will know there's an old transaction being used here.

W: Basically, this is mathematically impossible to use as proof.
A: It's been claimed the blog was meant as a general explanation. Comments?
W: Well, maybe. But if it was technically sound, the attachment would be verifiable. Technical people would call this useless.

Mansaus: Do you have investments in crypto?
W: Yes.
A: Which one?
W: Lots, but mainly Bitcoin and Ethereum
A: on twitter?
W: I publish rarely, but read.
Judge: Before this starts, can we keep it tight?
A: Yes.
A: Do you know hodlonaut acct?
W: Yes

Mans: Since?
Joh: 2018-19 maybe
Mans: Follow closely?
Joh: There's an algo that determines this
Mans: Know LN Torch?
Joh: Yes: 2018-19 I think
Mans: Participate?
Joh: No
Mans: Did you read the tweets from the case?
Joh: I'm unaware

Mans: How did you familiarize yourself with the SN signing(s)?
Joh: Blogs and my own memory from 2016 about the fuss. I quickly saw it was fake.
Mans: What was fake?
Joh: IDK what he saw, but he said he was probably tricked.
Mans: It's simple to game Electrum?
John: Yes

Joh: It could have been done online. Why bother flying him out? Why not use his own Electrum wallet? It's like a farce. He could have done anything to it.
Mans: I'm going to download Electrum now. How could I change it?
Joh: I can't change your wallet on your computer.

Mans: Oh! If Gavin downloaded it, Craig could change it?
Joh: Not after downloaded, but the Wifi could have triggered the download of a modified wallet, etc...
Mans: Could Electrum identify who downloaded?
Joh: Yes. To an IP address.
Mans: Do you know Gavin
Joh: Not peronsally

Mans: Are you intelligent on bitcoin tech?
Joh: Yes
Mans: Could you trick Gavin to think you're Satoshi?
Joh: Yes, at the time, I think I could have.
Mans: In Sartre text, what's in there?
Joh: It hasn't all been shown.
Mans: How about the topic?
Joh: No.

Mans: Do you know who Sartre is?
Joh: No
Judge: This was a technical article to me. Can you explain why it's NOT technical? How should he have done it?
Joh: Easy, publish the whole text, the SN7 pub key and the sig, and then verify.
Judge: I think I understand. [smiling]

Judge: Anything else to know?
Joh: The blog post makes it very clear that he's trying to look complicated to mislead people.

NEXT WITNESS

Svein Ølnes: Senior researcher with Norwar Research Inst. Tenured Position at University in Cryptocurrency.

Takes Oath

Cat Attny: What's your story?
Svein: University, etc... After discovering bitcoin, focused on blockchain research. Got into bitcoin in 2011 by coincidence. Friend got me into it and I was very interested. Then captured by it. I develop and teach courses now.

Svein: I should add I own bitcoin
Attny: What is bitcoin and why important?
Svein: It's digital currency and a system for transferring value without mediators, etc.
Judge: What could be built with bitcoin?
Svein: Lightning, for example, on bitcoin, and there are other protocols

Attny: What do you know about SN?
Svein: I don't know him lol, but I have read him in posts and emails.
Attny: What was the culture at first?
Svein: People with interest in the tech and conviction about protecting personal data. In the 90's they were advocates for privacy.

Svein: Thanks to then, we have access to free cryptography. The white paper was circulated among cypherpunks and cryptoanarchists for a reason.
Attny: You recall CSW as a SN candidate?
Svein: Yes, I remember in 2015

Svein: My first thought was interest, but CSW didn't match with my image of Satoshi. His way of expressing himself in general didn't match. He's pompous and I don't like how he presents technology.
Attny: What's the general perception?
Svein: that he isn't Satoshi. I agree.

Atny: Why?
Svein: The more I read CSW, the more it's impossible. It's so obvious as more develops.
Attny: Anything in particular?
Svein: The cheating, and trying to make a name for himself. Financial interest...

Attny: What about BSV?
Svein: I remember the 2017 and 18 splits. Peaked in 17. There were groups in bitcoin, and some groups are more important than others.
Judge: Who are these groups?
Svein: Big blockers and small. Basically about txn fees...

Svein: But speed creates centralization...
Attny: What's wrong with that?
Svein: Well, attacks can occur, etc...

Svein: in bitcoin, we have devs, miners, and users who run their full nodes. They are like a court of law in bitcoin. This became very clear in ‘17. Users and miners were opposing each other.

Svein: Miners wanted big blocks but users wanted them small and Segwit to reduce tx size without making such a dramatic change such as bigger blocks.

Soft forks are gentle and cautious changes. Hard forks are dangerous.

Users vote by signaling for changes and need quite a high level of acceptance. Users made miners go along with the users' changes by threatening to reject blocks that didn't accept Segwit.

We tried to compromise to grow block size after Segwit, but it didn't happen.

The users wanted to show their power.

Judge: Explain the hard fork please
Svein: Bitcoin Core tried to compromise, but BCH split away with bigger blocks, and there was disagreement again to create BSV from BCH.
Judge: Who disagreed?
Svein: Bitmain was a big one.

Judge: So BCH to BSV was when?
Svein: 2017 or 18.
Manshaus: Are you invested in crypto?
Svein: Primarily bitcoin, but others too. BTC is bitcoin.
Mans: Involved in Lightning Network?
Svein: Involved? I'm a user.
Mans: LN Torch?
Svein: Yeah.

Mans: When?
Svein: I got on twitter for it and saw hodlonaut.
Mans: How did you discover?
Svein: IDK. I remember it coming up and then joining and seeing Jack Dorsey receive and pass it on.
Mans: Did you follow @Jack?
Svein: Yes.
Mans: You follow hodlonaut?
Svein: Yes.

Mans: You know what this case is? Can you explkain it?
Svein: Cat sued Aussieman because posts weren't defamatory.
Mans: Let's look at the tweets. Faketochi, PedoCal, mentally ill, deep cringe, Fraud, Fraud Week, Join Celebration... You recall?
Svein: Not specifically

Mans: Would you retweet this?
Svein: No. I'm cautious. LinkedIn people would be shocked at this. Twitter is brutal.
Mans: Do you like targeted harassment on Twitter?
Svein: Twitter is rough. I have seen similar examples.
Mans: So you wouldn't write like this?
Svein: No

Svein: But each person has a way of expressing themself. I'm a researcher. I have my own tone.
Judge: When you read CSW, you said pompous and so not SN. Can you give characteristics of SN?
Svein: White paper was fantastically written. That style is far from Craig's style.

Svein: SN is thorough and beautiful. Very far from CSW.
Judge: These tweets from '19, after the splits to BCH and BSV, what was the atmosphere? Long after doxing.
Svein: Not very clearly. CSW is aggressive in promoting BSV and pursuing people who criticized his claims.

Svein: He made things heated.
Judge: Hodlonaut started it again? Or a bigger discussion?
Svein: I can't answer. Don't recall.
Judge: anything else to add?
Svein: Bitcoin has no leader, org, PR, staff... anyone can be involved. Everyone on the street, etc...

Stefan Matthews @TurkeyChop enters.

Swearing oath and mentioning @TaalBlockchain @nChainGlobal and @BitcoinAssn roles.

He affirms oath. Switching to ENGLISH!

Halvard Helle speaks for the first time in court.
Hal: Background?
Stef: Various degrees in finance, etc..
Hal: Chairman at nChain?
Stef: Of the holding company, yes.
Hal: Chairman of the company where CSW is employed?
Stef: Yes

Hal: When you meet?
SM: 2005 as CIO at Centribet in prep for our IPO. I hired him as a security auditor through BDO. Criag was one of 4 people
Hal: His role?
SM: Audit lead
Hal: What tasks did he do?
SM: Overseeing all control systems, compliance, security of client info...

Hal: How were his skills? Was he ordinary?
SM: At first, yes, but he was very interested in learning about why and how people did things. He was deeply interested in educating people about how systems SHOULD look, which was very different from an auditor.

Hal: His IT skills?
SM: This was highly technical and high value stuff. He had an enormous amount of credential. When my people heard CSW was on the BDO team, they were thrilled because his abilities were second to none. He's the most credentialled guy in the field.

Hal: How about practical skills?
SM: He was great on site and was respected as a clear expert.
Hal: His personal skills?
SM: Laughs... A little different. Example: He'd come in to chat and interupt me and guests just to talk. Sometimes it was ok lol

Hal: So your IPO, did you work with Craig after that era?
SM: Yes, a number of forensic tasks and reporting. He was the primary contact between Centribet and BDO...
Hal: Did you talk outside work?
SM: Sure, starting in 2007, he'd bring lots of ideas about things to me.

SM: Digital cash was a topic. There were interesting things for the company on that. He talked about gold-backed digital currency, immutable ledgers, tracking security events on these ledgers, etc...

Hal: Was this relevant to Centribet?
SM: Very much! There was a nexus there in the business for sure. But other things also not relevant specifically for Centribet.

Lunch break. BACK!
Hal: CSW LEft BDO in 2008. Did he do other things for you?
SM: In late 2008, CSW was out of BDO, but our board committee needed an independent advisor, and we retained CSW to advise the committee on security.

Hal: Stuff like P2P payments and such, can you identify what period these conversations were?
SM: 2007-2008
Hal: Anything specific?
SM: He brought me a white paper. I didn't read it right away, but it got left on my desk. Later, I realized that it was indeed the bitcoin paper.

SM: It didn't have the Satoshi name on it.
Hal: What if it did?
SM: I would have asked who that is
Hal: Continue
SM: We discussed later what version it was. He told me it was 2nd to last.
Hal: When was this presentation?
SM: Must have been August '08

Hal: You read all of it?
SM: The whole front page and all the headings. I speed read all the content, and there wasn't anything there I hadn't discussed with him over the previous year. I had no magical moment when reading it because it was all discussed before to me.

Hal: Did you understand it and take interest?
SM: Yes, as an invention. Not as someone who wanted to be involved though. I worked in an industry where this had been tried a bunch without success.

Hal: When was the next time you discussed it after first reading?
SM: Probably a month later. We met monthly, regularly. He saw it on my desk and asked if I read it. I said "yeah, but I had no interest."
Hal: Reaction?
SM: He was used to me being disinterested lol

Hal: Did he propose more involvement from Centrebet?
SM: He did, and I said absolutely no. We were going through serious discussion about being acquired

Hal: In 2009, what contact did you have?
SM: He had left BDO and was active with us as an independent advisor. He was in our office for meetings down from his NSW farm. He offered me bitcoin once in 2009. He said "give me $500." I offered him more. He said "I'm not short of $"

SM: He wanted to sell me 50k bitcoin. I rejected the kind offer of bitcoin at $0.01 each.
Hal: In hindsight, should you have accepted?
SM: Ehhh... We had discussed it for years at that point. I didn't take the time to respect it, so I didn't understand why it would matter.

SM: If I had taken them, they would have come with keys. I have moved a lot, and because of my lack of respect, I'd probably have lost them.
Hal: When did your relationship with Centrebet end?
SM: Acquired by a UK company. I resigned at that point and took a job in UK

SM: I didn't keep contact with CSW after 2011.
Hal: When did you hear back from him again?
SM: I heard his name between 2011-14 because I took a senior guy with me and he kept in touch with CSW on forensic stuff. He called me on my cell in 2014. He wanted to meet on New Year Eve

SM: We ended up meeting on Jan 2, 2015 in a hotel in Sydney.
Hal: What did you do on New Year?
SM: Saw family and watched Sydney fireworks.
Hal: How was meeting?
SM: Good. Talked about people and events. Didn't really talk bitcoin.

Hal: Did bitcoin exist in your life at that point?
SM: I was familiar with the name and some concepts, yes. I remembered it from before, and I remember watching a documentary about it in the UK with people transacting, but I still didn't really care deeply.

Sm: The kids wanted to watch football, and I did too. Shut off the bitcoin show haha.
Hal: What else did you do in the meeting.
SM: Ate a burger and had a coke. Wrapped up and said bye.
Hal: When did you meet next?
SM: Later in 2015. He wanted my advice.

SM: I told him we could meet in Aus in a couple months.
Hal: And?
SM: stayed at the airport Holiday Inn and met CSW and Alan Pederson and something Savanah from DeMorgan. Had a light lunch. The guys from DeMorgan talked a lot of their blockchain R&D. I became aware of issues

SM: I asked Craig to stop the meeting and just join me for dinner. Went to my room and did some research online. I read the history of bitcoin to get caught up on Satoshi, etc... Staring at a PDF of the white paper. "one of those moments..." It was ghost-like!

SM: I had seen it before. I asked him "Who is SN?" He said "You already know."
Hal: So?
SM: I told him I don't like his riddles. Tell em straight. He said, "I am."
HAL: When?
SM: Late April 2015. I told him "I read this before in '08." He said "No, you read 2 iterations prior"

Hal: So you were imprecise!
SM: Lol in his opinion!
Hal: Regarding DeMorgan, the diffciulties?
SM: We discussed the issues and purpose of the company structure. Independent directors surprised me. The process of R&D grants applications was discussed.

SM: Talked about how the grant applications had been filed and reviewed, etc... Gov had decided to conduct audits and caused problems from there.
Hal: Discuss solutions?
SM: Not right there. I asked why he came to me. Said he was mostly to understand and advise.

SM: He also discussed discussions with McQuarry Bank in Aus about an advance of $10m toward a retainer for support and service to resolve the audit. But he didn't trust the process. He thought he'd lose control of his IP. I asked what he really wanted.

He said he doesn't want to run a business. Doesn't want to be repsonsible for operations or people. He wanted to do research and complete what's in his head for 15-20 years, and he wasn't good at business.

Hal: What was the solution?
SM: I flew to Manila. I needed to talk to someone who could relate and bounce ideas off of. I called my friend Calvin Ayre to discuss "quite a story."
Hal: Faster, what was his reaction to the story?
SM: He brought both of us to Vancouver to talk.

Hal: Did this meeting produce immediate result?
SM: No, but we concluded we should introduce CSW to Rob McGregor about nTrust Company which does advanced remittance services. We knew he was using bitcoin already.
Hal: nTrust? nCrypt? nChain?
SM: nChain group acquired everything

Hal: But no other link to McGregor's businesses and Ayre at that point?
SM: None whatsoever.
Hal: Was Rob interested?
SM: Not initially. But I needed to do due diligence anyways. McGregor went to Aus in June '15 to do due diligence too.

SM: then we signed terms in late 2015.
Hal: What were the main elements?
SM: Intent was to make a payment to Clayton Woods and an outstanding legal bill that needed to be paid. $1.2m AUD. And Andrew Somer let us know we had to solve these problems quickly or he'd walk

SM: We had to figure out how to get the IP at arm's length so it could be protected and continued.
Hal: DeMorgan entities to the nCrypt entities?
SM: Yes.
Hal:Did CSW do this with a light heart?
SM: It satisfied his wishes, but he was under a lot of pressure at the time.

Hal: Next element in the terms
SM: There were 5-6. Consulting agreements, 2 term sheets (from Rob's laptop), Figuring out what "arms length" would look like practically, Engaging Baker and McKenzie...

SM: had to be sure that everything was truly arm’s length. Life story was referenced briefly in the term sheet. But not executed until the following year.

Judge: Why were there 2 versions of terms? Why not tear up the 1st?
SM: Baker & MacKenzie advised that we attach both versions and show that 2 superseded 1. They named them differently to differentiate.

Hal: So you agreed with B&M. What did CSW agree to do?
SM: Relocate to the UK. We would sponsor him. They made plans to house shop.
Hal: Why England?
SM: R&D required British human capital and resources. Primarily talent.
Hal: We know what happened in late 2015 (doxing)

Hal: CSW was approached by @WIRED and @Gizmodo. What was that like?
SM: Craig showed me he had been approached, and we figured they were going to out him. He was emphatic that he didn't want this to happen. It wasn't part of the plan. I assured him it wasn't our doing.

Hal: Why did you have to reassure him?
SM: I didn't have to, but I did.
Hal: Did he suspect nCrypt?
SM: IDK. None of us knew what the magazines had, but it was getting intense day by day.
Hal: Did you consider working with them?
SM: No. It wasn't the plan.

SM: We didn't discuss this. We didn't want to out SN as part of any plan.
Hal: What was the effect? What about O'Hagen's retention as an author?
SM: Well, he didn't know why he was retained. It was initially to documenting the growth of what is now the nChain group.

SM: We figured nChain would become a significant organization, and we wanted to document its history as it happened. McGregor retained him, which initially surprised me. He wasn't given proper NDA, and he published what he published.
Hal: CSW was indeed outed. What next?

SM: I was at the Sydney airport when the stories came out. And an hour later, the police had a search warrant. I went back to the office to figure out what was next.
Hal: Did Wright flee?
SM: No. CSW were in a service dept because they had vacated. Their home was empty.

SM: I started getting calls from lawyers. They said the warrant introduced new problems, but they advised to keep moving forward with the plan.
Hal: Did the outing change your priorities?
SM: Yes, materially. Went from building around the IP to promoting CSW as SN.

SM: this was Rob's idea.
Hal: Why the proofing sessions?
SM: Daily pressure to sign for the media, etc... I suggested Matonis as a good candidate to relieve some pressure. Craig agreed it was OK. Session was scheduled with some boundaries.
Hal: How about Gavin?

SM: It was supposed to be one session with Matonis. Matonis recommended bringing in Gavin to relieve more pressure.
Hal: Were you present?
SM: I organized and was present at both.
Hal? Where?
SM: Covent Gardens hotel in London. Spring 2016.

SM: There was a bit of time between. Gavin was reluctant for a bit.
Hal: How was Matonis' reaction?
SM: He said it was no surprise. He met Craig previously and they had talked and had had the feeling he met SN anyways. He signed NDA saying nothing would leave the room.

SM: He could choose any 3 at random from the first 10 blocks. From memory, it was 1, 9 and 3,7 or 5. I forget now. CSW had no idea which, but we did 3 signings in each session.
Hal: These are controversial. Do you know if Matonis maintains his conclusion.
SM: He worked for us

SM: ...for only 8 months, and we didn't talk for years until 2 months ago. We had breakfast and I asked. John said back "I stand by it today." @jonmatonis

Hal: Go through Gavin signing please.
SM: Signed NDA, then Gavin and CSW sat together with notepads and talked bitcoin concepts, algos, and Q&A stuff. I had to break them up to get on with it. The signing was done on CSW's laptop, so Gavin demanded to do it on his own too.

SM: CSW said no. There was 15 min of conversation. We agreed to get a fresh, new laptop. He was the only person to touch it, and it was done to his rules and proven. Gavin said "I wondered what I would do if we ever met. Thank you."

It was very emotional...

Hal: Did you feel they were successful?
SM: Yes.
Hal: Do you wish things were different?
SM: All the time. I wish I knew then what would have transpired.

Side Note: Hi, Greg 👋🏻

Hal: What next?
SM: There was supposed to be a coin moved per arrangement with McGregor, but it didn't happen. The "I'm sorry" post was made by McGregor IN MY PRESENCE.
Hal: What was his motivation?
SM: I'd have to speculate [somberly]. Rob said "fire everyone and close nChain."

SM: Obviously, I refused, but he wanted to exit the investment and the business, etc... We secured a private firm to take Rob's investment.
Hal: When was this?
SM: Equity and ownership exit was later in the year.
Hal: Then?
SM: We've continued on to today (paraphrased)

Cat Attny: You received white paper in 2008? Which iteration?
SM: Yes.
Attny: October or March version?
SM: IDK
Attny: Where is it now?
SM: Not sure. It was on my laptop. Paper version was lost in a move. [Cat gives a big grin and eyes to Stefan]

Attny: Any other chat about it?
SM: Not that I recall.
Attny: Any electronic proof from the time for evidence?
SM: No, not that I recall. It wasn't news at the time.
Attny: You were offered 50k bitcoin in 2009?
SM: IDK when exactly, but he didn't ask me "you cunt [at CSW]"

SM: He said "give me $500." I said no.
Attny: Were you aware lawyers withdrew from DeMorgan?
SM: Some time later, yes. We met often.
Attny: Did you know Andrew Somer wrote to Ramona?
SM: I was CC'd
Attny: Do you remember when?
SM: Not precisely. Same {era)

Attny: And you planned what with McGregor?
SM: We discussed lots of things. The store room in DeMorgan's offices had the cataloged research work in big files. Rob wanted me to see a doc in there. It's dated 2006 describing blockchain concepts.
Attny: Why $1.5m for the IP?

SM: We valued it at $15m and broke it down into pieces.
Attny: Were you aware what the IP had been previously purchased for?
SM: I know what was invested in.
Attny: Siemens [missed it]
SM: That software wasn't used from them

[Cat gazing intensely]

Attny: Did you discuss the Sartre post with Craig?
SM: Not before. I discussed the consequences. I discussed with McGregor before it was posted. Rob was editing it and emailing CSW without reply.
Attny: Do you know in what way it was edited?
SM: Not precisely, but he said it

Attny: We have some version of white paper here. I'll show to you. Our version says "bitcoin." is this the version?
SM: No. My version didn't have CSW or an email address. This looks like a final. The block with names wasn't in there.
Attny: Your's was earlier?
SM: I'd suspect

Attny: How about this one?
SM: No.
Attny: Do you know how CSW got the keys for signing sessions?
SM: I recall there was discussion with a trustee but not which one, and it was solved hours before the signing.
Attny: This email?
SM: Perhaps, I don't recall.

Attny: Was it a signed letter?
SM: It wasn't this. I may recognize it if I saw it.
Attny: How did you get consent.
SM: Evening before or morning of the signing
Attny: What do you think of this letter?
SM: Honestly, I don't recognize it.
Attny: Please, always be honest.

Cat giving very intense gazes at Stefan and making bizarre eye motions and posturing at him. It’s the most body language he’s given by a wide margin. Very aggressive and curious. Lots of wild smiles and such. Room is intense right now. Keyboards clacking everywhere.

Big sighs out of the cat because Stefan can't identify an email that the Attny seems to think he should clearly recognize.
Attny: Did you discuss the drama after Sartre post?
SM: Yes
Attny: About?
SM: I don't remember the granular details

Attny: Why not more signings and such? Why identity twice but not more?
SM: It's what he believes - very strongly.
Attny: Did you know he destroyed these hard drives after?
SM: It's what I was told.

Attny: And?
SM: The trama was May 4, just days after. I had bigger things on my mind. I wish a lot of things went differently, but they didn't I can't change it.
Attny: Does it bother you that he destroyed the drives.
SM: Sure.
Attny: Have you asked him why?
SM: No.

Attny: Were you involved in discussions of pursuing people who call him a fraud?
SM: No.
Attny: Were you aware?
SM: Yes.
Attny: Involved in strategy to sue?
SM: Not that I recall. I'm involved in lots of peripheral discussions, but not that strategy.

Attny: Did you discuss with them?
SM: Probably.
Attny: What's the goal?
SM: To stop the bombardment of Craig by the culture.
Attny: Is it about BSV?
SM: You'd have to ask the originators of the campaigns against BSV.

Female Cat Attny: Who downloaded software for the Gavin signing?
SM: Andresen
Attny: Gavin deposition from Kleiman case says Craig downloaded the software.
SM: I was on the other side of the table with Rob. As best as I can determine, Gavin was on the new laptop.

Attny: How long did it take?
SM: Quite a long time. It occurred twice with a long break in between to buy the 2nd laptop.
Attny: What took time?
SM: Setting up, getting Wifi creds, lots of conversation in between...
Attny: Not the set up of computer?
SM: that was part of it

Attny: This memo says something took a lot of time.
SM: I don't recall any step taking particularly long. It WAS a long day.
Attny: Who chose Electrum?
SM: Gavin, I think.
Attny: Did Andresen witness everything going on?
SM: Like a hawk.

Judge and Hal can't follow along reading of Kleiman case depo of Gavin. Stefan has given a statement, but there's a ton of context that he can't know about Gavin's depo, etc... Stefan summed up what he remembers, but Gavin doesn't remember here either. We need to be more clear.

Judge: You lost me on what is a quote from Reddit and what is a quote from Gavin and what is a quote from Electrum. The witness can't follow if I can't follow.

Attny: Ok, I'll wrap up. Gavin's experience is a big part of the case, and you witnessed it. Is it still your view that his important explanation is valuable even though he claims to have no memory of details?
SM: It doesn't matter to me, no. I have personal, special experiences

SM: If Gavin doesn't remember the details, that's fine, but I recall precisely there was a first computer then a 2nd brand new computer later in the day.
Judge: You were convinced early of CSW as SN. Is it important to your company whether he is?

SM: That's difficult. Today, no. NChain is 7 years old. 285 staff. Thousands of filings/patents, developing significant software and SaaS. Obviously Craig's role is important, but he isn't in day-to-day management. He's the scientist, but the business is business.

SM: Does the value of nChain change based on SN? I can see arguments both directions. You'd have to ask investors about the value of nChain with or without him. My other company (Taal) mines 3 SHA256 chains. His identity matters to the business, but the businesses are what they r

Judge: You're not sure it's important if he's SN to the fork Bitcoin Satoshi Vision?
SM: It's obviously got a nexus. But measuring the value it difficult to quantify.
Judge: Did Matonis' wife tell you Jon said he thought he met Satoshi a year before proof session?

SM: She told me after the proof session.
Judge: So that's not why you chose Matonis?
SM: No.

Cat Attny: The value of the IP, when the ATO decision came, did your opinion of the IP change?
SM: No. It happened amid the writing and signing of terms.
Attny: No effect?
SM: No

Judge: anything to add?
SM: No

BREAK TIME

Next up is Jenkins

Robert James Jenkins. IT Consultant.

Hearing his oath.

Hal: Whats your story?
Rob: 3 degrees. Electronics, physics, education.
Hal: Occupation and 1st contact with CSW?
Rob: l worked with Vodaphone in 1997 to get everything online. Early internet pioneer in the UK. We were the largest Telco in the world at the time...

Rob: I needed to increase our speed and security. We retained DeMorgan after their work for the Aus Stock Exch. I met Craig there in 1999.
Hal: Did CSW set this up for you?
Rob: He set up the firewall and such for Vodaphone Aus and Asia. He was intimately involved.

Hal: How were his skills?
Rob: I've never seen a better implementation of a security system - to this day over 20 years later.
Hal: Sophisticated for the time?
Rob: Absolutely cutting edge for the time. Dedicated systems and then securing of log files sent to offsite location.

Yo @BWDaugherty 👀

Hal: Did you every go to DeMorgan?
Rob: I had the honor of being trained at the DeMorgan offices in security, yes.
Hal: What was the place like?
Rob: I have fond memories [Rob and Craig smiling big at each other]. the place had an overwhelmingly positive vibe.

Hal: When did you leave Vodaphone?
Rob: I was enticed away in 2000 after 3 years there. I joined the first IP Telephony company in the world.
Hal: Did you maintain contact with Wright?
Rob: Yes. You don't let go of someone so intellectual, but we struck up a friendship.

Hal: Friends or professional?
Rob: Both. I've moved from Telco to banking, and we both love our work, but we're friends.
Hal: In early years, did you discuss alternative payment systems?
Rob: We both liked to challenge things, so yes, that and more.

Hal: Were you interested in egold?
Rob: Lol yes. in the late 1990's, specifically 2001. I wanted to buy on eBay in 2000, and egold had an escrow service that worked.
Hal: Did this interest CSW?
Rob: It was a passive thing to discuss.

Hal: What next?
Rob: I moved to the biggest bank in Aus for 6 years. Started in firewall management then in RFP, then others...
Hal: Contact with CSW in this period?
Rob: We'd bump into each other at IT events. and see each other every 18 months or so.

Hal: Any relevant topics?
Rob: Always tech, banking, finance. He'd ask if I trust my bank to hold my money lol. Fiat currency...
Hal: what's that?
Rob: It's currency not backed by physical gold, in a basic sense.
Hal: Fiat is central banked?
Rob: Yes, no backing

Hal: What else?
Rob: I was in risk analysis, and had taken time to pause and think about why things are the way they are. I'm paid now for thought leadership on complex subjects. We put trust in promissory notes, but that can be improved!

Hal: What was your next role?
Rob: Enterprise architect, meaning I artificially predict the future.
Hal: Discuss blockchain with CSW?
Rob: Not up to that point, but we had a system called OPERA for commodity prediction. It was a distributed node system. It would calculate math

Rob: Blueprint for mass computation. It's the blueprint for what distributed supercomputers look like today.

This was 2004-08. We will going through the financial crisis from then. We had this 100 year old system for reallocating home titles when sold, and I was hired to digitize that.

Hal: Still contact with CSW?
Rob: Yes, discussing things like distributed ledger systems concepts. These were initial concepts around blockchain.
Hal: Did the word "bitcoin" come up?
Rob: Absolutely not. It wasn't a phrase, but the concept of money over distributed consensus...

Rob: Used a system like BitTorrent [explains the system]. I asked if his ideas were like BitTorrent. He said no, it's more about the ledger.
Hal: Did CSW ever show you the white paper or anything about blockchain?
Rob: No. I remember a meeting where he was documenting ideas.

Rob: He said I might get something in the post. But that's it.
Hal: Given the length of your friendship, are you surprised he didn't share?
Rob: I'm sure CSW has other colleagues. I wasn't his only sounding board, so no.
Hal: When did you learn bitcoin?
Rob: 2011 from CSW

Rob: He told me I might want to buy some.
Hal: Buy, invest, mine?
Rob: I'm NOT a very wealthy person. I have had opportunities. Not a big investor or anything. I have 4 daughters, and couldn't afford things like that, so I didn't bother.

Hal: When CSW was outed, did you still have contact?
Rob: We were due to catch up, and I remember texting him to ask if I can help because he had canceled our meeting. I saw on tv later what was up.
Hal: Reaction?
Rob: Well, hindsight was fun to replay!

Hal: Thank you.
Cat Attny: Clear this up: In 1999, DeMorgan installed firewall system for stock exchange?
Rob: Yes. I think so.
Attny: Is this the right company?
Rob: I don't know.
Manshaus: Are we REALLY using Wikipedia for this?
No further questions