Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good afternoon; this is the afternoon of day 5 of the hearing in Mermaids v Charity Commission & LGB Alliance. The hearing will resume after lunch, at 2pm.

This morning's tweets are at:

tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/mermaids-vs-…

Abbreviations:

J or Judge - Judge Lynn Griffin, Presiding Judge,
MM - Mermaids, the appellant
MG - Michael Gibbon KC, Counsel for Mermaids
CC - Charity Commission, the first respondent
IS - Iain Steele, Charity Commission counsel

LGBA - LGB Alliance, the second respondent
KM - Karon Monaghan KC - Counsel for LGBA
AR - Akua Reindorf, Assistant to KM
EG - Eileen Gallagher Chair of Trustees LGBA

The hearing will resume evidence from EG - Eileen Gallagher Chair of Trustees LGBA at 2pm. Her witness statements are here:
lgballiance.org.uk/eileen-gallagh…

[hearing begins]

J: I hope you got some lunch EG
EG: I did thanks
MG: Para14 of WS. webinars

MG: webinars on range of topics. you don't refer to much detail, contents etc but exhibit screenshots. Vol 2.4
EG: yes
MG: looking at the 4. understanding gender dysphoria, pub quiz, tackling wave of homophobia, election special. other webinars?
EG: this is all. bc lockdown way

to communicate with members/supporters.
MG: didn't continue?
EG: Resources issue. this pre-dates any staff. all done by volunteers

MG: 3. Election special?
EG: can't tell you much.
J: I can't hear you. you were saying you can't tell us much about ES?
EG: yes
MG: the GD webinar and WW wave of homophobia, those I suggest GC issues
EG: I suppose... which ones?

MG: the Tsunami warning WW wave of homophobia
EG: not GC. problems we have as gay ppl around the world not GC. campaign in Uganda. problems there v. different. WW issues that homosexuals face. some countries punishable by death
MG: that's attached to gender identity ideology

EG: in some instances. not my focus. homophobia v. severe in some countries. In this country homophobia has become a difft issue. conflict with gay ppl's rights.
MG: involved in making webinar?
EG: no

MG: you gave long statement of objects met by the webinars. fair to say that what we're talking ab here are 3 webinars putting aside pub quiz?
EG: I think so yes. v. much a time b4 I joined the organisation. as chair of the board I'm invlv. in policy not physically delivering th

services
MG: Q ab scale of activity put forward. I put it to you that's ceased
EG: not connected. it was done for lockdown period. and it's really resource based. we have ONE part time admin who's brilliant Kelly and an MD. if you do things well you have to select what you

deliver
MG: u say in WS 'in the depths of lockdown... I looked up object 2.2.3 relieving need of victims of human rights abuse' bit of an overstatement?
EG: framed that way... we were relieving a need. LGB isolated in homes. need of entertainment. history of gay life.

EG: celebrate first gay pub, gay history, celbrated. when movement started.
MG: educational?
EG: educational for me
MG: cheered ppl up?
EG: yes

MG: your ws reads. list of objects. when I look thru the bundle 2.4 Page 3696. Now is this all the news letters you had when you prep your ws?
EG: no just an example. Kate Barker who's bcome MD. we decided this was one of the things we wd prioritise. webinars resource heavy. so .

newsletter is what we went for
MG: 3 newsletters August 2021. and conf newsletter. your understanding?
EG: yes
MG: pauses.... ] I don't want to spend a great deal of time on this. short docs to cheer the troops?
EG: yes and inform re events.

MG: evidence of numerous objects. I suggest that overstates the impact and content. they've got info but they're newsletters. right to say since Jan 2022 further statement?
EG: Yes monthly basis
MG: when move to monthly
EG: don't know but they're most freq used pieces of info

MG: you only mention one conference
EG: we went to conservative party conf and conf in Scotland. we haven't been allowed a stall in the labour party or lib dems. we went to Scottish one as well ... alot going on with Sandyford and GRA

MG: when was Scottish P conf?
EG: not sure. 6 months after this
MG: moving on to the ARTs heading. LGB long contributed to rich arts in UK. grants to LGB film makers. you exhibit at P3716

MG: it doesn't make clear precisely when it was scoped.
EG: b4 I arrived. we havn't managed to get a funder. bc we're labelled as a hate grp it's v. hard to get money. challenge to comm what we are, which is not a hate grp. if ppl think we're hate grp v. hard to get funding. we

havne't got the money to do this
MG: so scoped b4 u were assc. with LGBA?
EG: I remember thinking it was such a good idea for LGB. we just haven't managed to get it funded
MG: trying to establish aspiration vs activity. going to your statement
EG: which part?
MG para 20

MG: film proj Queens on the Queen. just to show you that we go back I'm afraid switching around all the time Vol 2.4 P 3717
J: Queen's platinum jubliee?
EG: ab 70 years. what's happened to gay men during the reign of her majesty. positive story. b4 queen died. ref. Queen Eliz

Queen Elizabeth II
MG: LGB short film and memory bank archive ' no erasure'. similar to use of 'erasure' in conf?
EG: can't help you with that sorry
MG: you set out budgeting. relates to 1st of 2 projcts. £? needed. in your 2nd stat. turn to page 244

MG: you refer to funding from London comm foundation but this was suspended. I'd like to take you to a letter which you exhibited from the CC. P 3908

EG: got it thank you
MG: ref funding. letter from CC to Jackie Doyle Price MP asked for clarification. shortly after funds a regulatory compliance case was raised. case was closed no investigation has been opened. you haven't said what that advice was

EG: the CC received hundreds of complaints from ppl who did't want us. huge amount of work.
J: interrupts - [points out not allowed to hold pen?]
EG: GRA, self ID... I think the graphic in the tweet. CC said be careful. bad graphic of a ballot box.

EG: when I came on LGBA I had never been on Twitter. and didn't want to tweet. but BJ said LGBA wouldn't be here w/o it and it can b put to good use.
EG: we had to go thru quite a process to show CC only 3-4 ppl could tweet and that every tweet authorised and had gone thru

proper process
MG: we don't have that process here [in bundle]
EG: CC wrote us a long letter, gave us advice and we were exonerated.
MG: your 2nd statement to bring things up to date
EG: yes

MG: arts paragraph 1st WS. reached position that film has been made. been shown?
EG: no it was meant to be shown last Saturday but had to be cancelled due to sad death of Queen Elizabeth
MG: since LGBA founded 1 short film made. screening to be rescheduled?
EG: yes

MG: the report on LGB issues. you say issues based on range of data, NHS LGB largest employer. eg. 11. one of the objects you rely on is researching and publishing results to the public. go to Vol 2. this is by Kate Grimes
EG: yes one of our supporters. was aChief Exec NHS Trust

MG: so this draft. look at 3726 for instance... I suggest this is certainly in part focused on GC issues
EG: [tries to speak]
MG: top of page gender identity increasingly ostracised no longer able to lead on LGB issues at all. one of the resarch areas?
EG: yes. Kate Grimes felt

moved from gay friendly / tolerant to not so friendly of gay people. 600 (thousdand? missed) staff interviews. feeling was it was worse for lesbian gay and bi ppl. they felt their experiences were getting worse and it certainly concerned us.
MG: her personal exp. springboard?

EG: She was Chief Exec of NHS Trust
MG: being inclusive.... extending to T
EG: with the addition of the T and Q and I there's been a conflict in organisations and for whatever reason it's become incredibly aggressive. Seen lesbians removed at Welsh pride march. that philosophy of

if you don't say you're attracted to a TW with a male body, accused of being bigoted. that's why KH, BJ and I felt we had to stand up. not anti trans. recognising things have changed.
MG: v. much GC lens
EG: it's not GC. it's standing up for LGB, its not a theory. things for LGB

have got much worse.
MG: focus on research
EG: well it is the research of pressure on LGB ppl in the NHS
MG: you'll see on P3740 para 1C - indented. recommendation, research independent of LGBT lobby groups and individuals?
EG: yes

MG: P3704
J: give me page again
MG: there's a heading 'NHS defending workplace rights.' mgr Kate Grimes, extensive experience, writing a report to b published early spring with recommendations for change. you haven't produced it.
EG: it's still in draft stage. I read it and felt

it needed more work and again bandwidth. we have to b careful with anything published. big body of work. it was me who said can we hold back on this. (Sorry kate grimes... a bandwidth issue. v. important doc needs 2b correct

MG: we're nearly 3 years on. there's a draft of the 1st report. that's position?
EG: yes. we did populus poll that cost £7k re what parents knew ab what was being taught in schools. I think in response to Welsh gov. curriculum. RSE

we think school education influenced by ideology in a way it shouldn't be that's why we did the poll
MG more reports?
EG: again we have no staff and no resources. when I started I was amazed. I didn't think we shd do conf bc no staff. mostly Kate Barker did all the work. conf

conference was brilliant. then this court case taking time, money. we need funding and not to be distracted by ppl not wanting us to exist. it's really interfered with the work we want to do.

MG: Vol 2.4 P3751.
EG: this is the error?
MG: yes, one factor.. bottom of page. particular focus on Maya Forstater. this dovetails with GC
EG: I just don't think there's a GC agenda as such. this was ab freedom of speech. I went to the APPG's on this. bc we're labelled a hate

group we don't get on the BBC or the ability put our point across. i you call us hateful bc we don't want children medicalised, it's really about being able to speak.
MG: page 240. most ambitious project underway. 2.5 years since proposed.

EG: yes. 1st thing Kate and Bev really wanted to do was the helpline
MG: Page 3942. halfway down explains how org carries out purposes, prior to your involvement. the 2nd para LGBA aims to carry out purposes by; then bullet point sections. next page. last of bullets.

MG: Helpline to LGB people. young people.
MG: you'll see that the next para ..
EG: Page 943?
MG: last bullet point. quite small. LGBA recognises the particular support req'd by LGB young ppl and parents, friends, other interested ppl.

the board will be responsible for seeing that staff get suitable training e.g. from Child helpline or Samaritans. did discussions happen?
EG: yes. I was at the first planning meeting.
MG: March 2020 prior to you joining
EG: the 1st planning meeting was Autumn 2021
MG: Apols if

not clear. were specific discussions happning with those orgs? (Child helpline or Samaritans.)
EG: Don't know sorry
MG: P 944. Helpline for callers to discuss topics they're confused ab or facing..... if you can't comment
EG: just to tell you.. Bev, Kate in particular they

Bev, Kate in particular they spend 1.5 hours everyday talking to callers needing help. how to come out at UNI. ppl needing advice. it confirms their original plan that the need for help. When LGB A launched Bev got messages saying we need you. there is a real demand for us to b

doing this and it is appreciated.
MG: Vol. 2.4 Page 3904.
EG: yes
MG: pick up thread again. you were in 1st meeting.
EG: I say first but this was a formal meeting. James Esses there. expert group as well as us. Q's like appropriate age to start.. 13 years? that was structure

of meeting. it was formal. start of project proper
MG: safeguarding, samaritans - why is Childline not mentioned?
EG:don't know. we've got reputational hill to climb. change that narrative that we're hate grp.
MG: in touch with Samaritans?
EG: dont' know
MG: Safe Schools Allia

MG: Safe Schools Alliance?
EG: yes work with alot.
MG: on their website I found call to DfE to remove teaching GII. what they're ab?
EG: yes
MG: erasing gay conversion therapy?

MG: in terms of scoping project is that the sort of thing you've gone into in detail??
EG: sorry what?
MG: go back to that page at the top. Helpline support for young ppl where none exist 2day. you fill gap?
EG: yes

MG: so you scoped what they wd say ? [on helpline]
EG: it was high level discussion of what helpline wd do, there was real need for it and grant from lottery to do scoping
MG: you're not able to give scope?
EG: I'm sure they've had those discussions. risk mgt, training, board

board involved in sending it off
MG: P3906. this money refers to .... see email there
EG: Yes "hello karen"
MG: give scoping project £9k from lottery
EG: yes
MG: 2nd stat 'working hard to scope'... 2.5 years since application to CC. still at prelim stage?

EG: if you're asking me to apologise bc it's taken so long, we've taken great strides to get it up and running
MG: £9k drop in ocean isn't it?
EG: reasonable for scoping. difference bw that and help line. scope it get it ready to go back and ask for £250-300k to actually do it.

MG: might be a moment for break
J: back at 15:25PM
[BREAK]

[resumes]

MG: last Q. when the application was made to put in the WS reqest to make it as complete as poss. complete as poss?
EG: yes
MG: anything missing
EG: don't think so

J: can you help us understand structure of governance?
EG: 6 execs. reads names - 1) peer, 2) academic 3) mgt consultant 4) BJ, 5) KH, 6) KB
we don't take breaks. Kate Barker KB runs 2 mgt meetings a week.
J: Trustees all directors?
EG: yes
J: no more Qs.

MG: checks name of peer...
EG: Tony Young (?)
J: thank you. you are free to go. I think that completes the evidence. Judge Nevil and I don't think it's [?}
J: Ms Monaghan grab that microphone. how much time?
KM: my clients are extraordinarily concerned. they are a tiny nascent

charity. if submissions go part heard into November, I would invite to consider 3 days is an over estimate. only 2 days is required. the consequential funding considerations as well as personnel less worrying [with 2 days for written submissions rather than 3]
J: asks MG , reduce

J: to 2 days?
MG: what's needed is interchange btw counsel and bench. in context you have detailed written papers already as KM has said
J: do you intend to use detailed written as route map?
MG: yes. facts have to be tied in with the law. can assist. looking to KM

KM: whatever wld be most convenient for the tribunal. certainly happy to do a speaking note. that way tribunal not typing and going at diff speed. and it has references in to reflect back on. content to do anything to keep it to 2 days.
MG: agreed transcript might help

MG: trying to agree notes might take more effort than transcript
J: facilities say we cld be accommodated in this building. do you have any submissions ab in person or CVP?
KM: may I take instructions?
J: y
KM: we're content with CVP madam. ask participants take part outside UK

J: we'll ask Lord chief justice guidance on viewing outside UK
MG: my preference is in person. my instructions are preference for in person. no obstacle to CVP. matter for tribunal ultimately. with witnesses preferable in person. with counsel less issue remote.
J: helpful.

J: IS?
IS: preference in person
J: I've been told smaller space
IS: smaller space and CVP ok
J: we'll take a moment re logistics. any requests?
MG: outside UK - Netherlands?
KM: yes and France.
J: I will direct Lord Chiefs

J: we'll take a few mins to decide how we'd like to proceed. you'll have at least 10 minutes.
[BREAK]

[resumes]

J: we should be able to hear submissions within 2 days, in person to help us focus on the things most important to the parties. starting at 9:30.

J: if you could factor in short breaks. we don't know the size of the rooms. some rooms even hotter than this one. facilities will do their best. we can indicate that we'll be assisted by transcripts but make no direction. we cld be assisted by speaking notes but make no directio

MG: 2 points. the normal day finishes 4:30?
J: yes. some flexibility. if it tips over a few minutes we'll sit.
MG: speaking notes, variety of views re how long. if you wanted to give an outline description?
J: everyone has their own view. my personal view is a skeleton shd be

brief
JN: my view is speaking note can be followed when counsel is speaking
J: 7th. 2 days starting the 7th. Monday and Tuesday
MG: no further evidence?
J: I can make explicit. NO further evidence
J: Thank you we'll rise now and see you in November.

[END OF HEARING]

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