Thread by @goinglikeelsie

Chair asks lawyers to introduce themselves and invites them to share their pronouns.

For the College:

Michael Seaborn, He/Him
Brent Olthuis, He/Him
barbara findlay She/Her

bf also identifies that she uses lowercase letters

For Amy Eileen Hamm:

Lisa Bildy
Karen Bastow

Neither accept the invitation to share their pronouns.

Though it is a matter of public record, I have deleted my tweet documenting the Member’s names.

Members of the public attending -:the Morgane Oger Foundation and Adrienne Smith. It is possible that this is the same AS that provides trans awareness training to Amy’s employer as well as trans clients at the BCHRT.

I believe it is Michael Seaborn (MS), he/him, who ensures that everyone is aware of and has been properly served with the Notice of Inquiry containing the revised citation.

bccnm.ca/Documents/comp…

Note, it’s revised because it formerly contained an accusation that Amy disseminated medically inaccurate information. This was quietly withdrawn with no regard to Amy’s professional reputation.

MS give the College’s opening statement.

- overview of sole allegation against Amy
- the making of derogatory & discriminatory statements against transgender people while identifying as a nurse
- differentiates this from Amy’s conduct in the workplace & on duty vs. off duty

- no allegations of deficiencies at work
- are Amy’s statements discriminatory?
- must understand in context of the position of the transgendered in society
- gender id differs from sex assigned at birth
- one of the most vulnerable groups in society

- statements deny their existence are discriminatory
- saying there are only two sexes denies their existence and erases their existence
- saying they were deviate and predatory is discriminatory
- College had a duty to investigate Amy as she is in a position of trust.

- is it fair to curtail Amy’s freedom of speech
- short answer, yes
- can make long nuanced argument that some speech falls into category that while respecting Charter rights can be fairly curtailed
- nurses@have position of trust & influence

- nursing profession must be responsible
- this gives sufficient nexus for College to intervene

Panel came back from lunch so I disappeared for more notes. Panel is now on a five minute break so will hold off on tweeting but want to say that investigator (testimony);was just asked if she found any tweets by Amy advocating genocide. Answer: No

Whew! (/s)

Looks like college will have only two witnesses. The investigator and the Director of the UBC School of Nursing. Direct and cross of investigator is complete. Direct of Director is complete, cross has begun.

I’d like to mention that @preta_6, our own Amy graduated WITH HONOURS from that very same UBC School of Nursing.

I have 37 pages of notes and will try to tweet more later. Sorry to all - I am on a family vacation in another time zone but will do my best.

#IStandWithAmyHamm

Going to tweet a bit more of my notes now. Picking up on MS’s opening statement.

- College not expecting Amy to fall silent
- there are areas where speech is legally proscribed
- only seek to limit when Amy is identifying as a nurse or nurse educator

- Canadian law re gender id & expression is settled
- all provinces and GofC have protected it in human rights law
- issue is Canadian law, not that of other countries
- re broader social context, not happening in a vacuum
- societal context is relatively new, will be lengthy

- an example is acceptance of pronoun choice
- draws comparison to LGB rights, civil rights & women’s rights
- initially resisted , discussed, acceptance mechanism the same for trans

- Amy’s statements are discriminatory
- amount to a debate or denying on trans existence
- misgendering and promoting negative stereotypes
-saying transgender people are less worthy
- type of thing was found to be discrimination by BCHRT

- saying they are immoral or bad, a corrosive stereotype
- saying trans women in prisons commit assaults
- will call two expert witnesses (

I was obviously wrong in previous tweet, two expert and investigator. Shouldn’t have gotten ahead of myself.

First is:

Elizabeth M. Saewyc, PhD, RN, FSAHM, FCAHS, FAAN
Professor and Director, UBC School of Nursing

Executive Director, Stigma and Resilience Among Vulnerable Youth Centre

nursing.ubc.ca/about/message-…

Then,

Greta Bauer, Professor  
CIHR Sex and Gender Science Chair, Schulich Medicine and Dentistry at the Western University.

schulich.uwo.ca/epibio/people/…

Evidence given by experts will cover

- transgender people’s role in society
- normal range of gender
- the key concepts of binary, non binary and gender Identity
- role of nurse in upholding dignity & worth and not to display animus to trans people

- the impact of discrimination on trans people
- trans people are among most marginalized & vulnerable
- saying there are only 2 sexes is discriminatory
- not just a binary system
- the intersection of the HC system & trans people
- they need affirming care

Next up, @LDBildy (for Amy Hamm) opening statement.

End of @LDBildy opening statement. Next up, testimony from the investigator assigned to look into the complaints against Amy.

Going to have another break here but would like to note that it appears this entire thing started because someone didn’t like that Amy helped put up a I ❤️@jk_rowling billboard!

No complaints about GIDYVR, Gender Storytime Hour , Amy’s tweets or writings.

All were found & became “evidence” because one man kicked things off by complaining about the billboard.

The billboard itself (the very basis of the complaint!) does not even seem to be held up as evidence of Amy’s so called discriminatory behaviour. 🤯

More to come ✌️

#IStandWithAmyHamm #nurseswillspeak #womenwillspeak

Resuming tweets of my notes of the @BCnursemidwife disciplinary panel hearing for @preta_6.
#IStandWithAmyHamm #nurseswillspeak #womenwillspeak

We are still on day one and the first witness has been called. She is Aisha AA, the assigned investigator.

If haven’t made it clear, these first three days are for the College to present their evidence. Amy’s team will have the opportunity to present evidence during the three days assigned in October. I suspect that is when we will hear from bf, the lawyer who uses lowercase letters.

AA is an investigator and legal counsel at the College. She investigated two complaints. We know one was from someone named and the other was anonymous. AA prepared the investigation report and swore an affidavit which she is shown as she begins her testimony.

That’s it for Brent O so now KB, on Amy’s team to cross examine AA.

KB - my colleague, @LDBildy will be showing documents on screen as needed. KB says Amy’s team recently asked for copies of AA’s notes which apparently amount to about 12 pages.

KB - was it ensured that Amy’s tweets were provided in context?
AA - did not gather surrounding tweets
KB - any context for/of inflammatory tweets
AA- no surrounding
KB - interview Amy personally
AA - no
KB - complainant was Dax Turvue*

*this may not be the correct spelling!

KB - aware on LinkedIn says he’s a marxist?

BO objects

KB - says he’s a social justice warrior?
AA - not aware
KB - what types and how many investigations have you done
AA - three (My note - I think that includes this one). Online, a no Covid isolation and ? (Sorry I missed it)

Now discussion of Amy’s supervisor at work. Apparently the supervisor received same complaint.

AA has acted for College mainly as legal counsel discussion of how AA was assigned and how investigation is done. Reports if complaint is founded or unfounded.

Inquiry Committee depends on her report (my note - to help decide if complaint is founded or unfounded and if should go to Disciplinary Panel). Risk of harm is not assessed by investigator.

KB says but you were directing Pallatin during investigation
AA - not on risk of harm

AA has been legal counsel and investigator since February 2020.

KB - Pallatin Report was 24 pages and at one point said Amy shared a document that they could not find in public domain
(Implying that Amy shared a private document?). Asks if AA relied upon?

AA - yes

KB - was a new policy doc put out by PHSA (Provincial Health Services Authority) related to gender care
AA - could not find online, Pallatin did not find it as public.
KB - you relied upon that in your report
AA - yes
KB - data miner found report, was public policy doc.

BO objects, what relevance
KB - required to confront and will impeach witness & report very serious to allegation that Amy accessed private data, doc was public, will call data miner.

BO - should be part of Amy’s case, has not proven AA relied on Pallatin report.

Note here by me: AA has already said she relied on Pallatin’s report and if she didn’t what the heck did she rely on? Anyway..

Panel goes to breakout room to decide objection

Question - can KB put to AA that PHSA report was public not private as asserted by Pallatin?

Back on record - uphold BO’s objection panel says not established that data miner affidavit is relevant.

KB - back to Pallatin, they culled the tweets
AA - most, job too big for AA. CAWSBAR websirpte and podcast also scrutinized.
KB - you relied on their report
AA - yes but did not submit all of it. (to Commission of Inquity?)
KB - but all, here to panel
AA - yes

KM - there was another allegation of providing inaccurate medical information
AA - yes, but didn’t investigate
KM - Amy faced citation but no investigation.Why?
AA - don’t know
KM shows some of AA notes, establishes that AA has never worked as nurse or in health care

Note, sorry for temporarily reffing to KM as KB.

KB - asks AA to describe notes about a meeting with Amy and her supervisor about same complaint that AA is investigating.

Note: in case it isn’t clear, same complaint was made to Amy’s employer as was made to College.

College is the regulator of Amy’s profession but not her employer

AA - notes of a less than 30 minute meeting between Amy and her supervisor
KB - reliable notes
AA - yes, only has some familiarity with nursing standards
KB - with discipline, suspension
AA - yes

KB - is Amy as risk or not risk relevant to College investigation. Amy’s employer had same complaint, did not act, no discipline, no suspension, is this relevant to College investigation?
AA - still had to proceed, mandate is public protection.

Note by me: AA already said risk wasn’t relevant so how is does that square with a mandate of public protection? Anyway…

KB - speaks to risk , issue of public harm
AA - no
KB - renting I ❤️@jk_rowling billboard soaked investigation

BO objects - what relevance?

KB rephrases - billboard was discussed with Commission of Inquiry?
AA - yes
KB - shows @jk_rowling tweets

KB asks AA to read out responses to JK tweet calling her a c*nt, rape threats…etc.

BO objects,relevance, doc not relied upon

KM - shows contexts for Amy’s tweets. Pallatin only reported Amy’s tweets, not context, shows Amy’s state of mind

BO replies that Amy must show/share Amy’s state of mind.

KM - see that when not including thread, possible to misinterpret Amy’s tweet
AA- yes
KM - if not considered risk of harm, was hate speech a consideration?
BO objects

KM - consideration of JKR as transphobic
AA - as a mirror to complaint
KM - do you have an opinion on sex based rights
AA - yes
KM - do sex based accede to trans rights

BO objects.

That’s it for now folks. Back at the panel in five hours, time for some sleep.

I will always stand with Amy Hamm. ✌️

Back at tweeting my notes from Day 1 of the @BCnursemidwife Disciplinary Hearing for @preta_6 Amy Eileen Hamm. This is the first day of three days of hearings in which the College gives their evidence against Amy.

#IStandWithAmyHamm #nurseswillspeak #womenwillspeak

There is a panel of three members, two are nurses and one to act as legal counsel for the panel. They decide what evidence can be admitted and what value should be assigned to the evidence given. If this was trial, they would be the judges.

This is an administrative hearing so although many of the same legal rules for civil procedures apply, there is a lot more flexibility in what the Members will allow, much like a human rights tribunal.

Counsellors (lawyers) for the College
Michael Seaborn, He/Him
Brent Olthuis, He/Him
barbara findlay She/Her

bf also identifies that she uses lowercase letters

For Amy Eileen Hamm:

Lisa Bildy
Karen Bastow

Neither accept the invitation to share their pronouns.

Important to note, this is not Amy’s employer who has brought this action against her. It is the BC College of Nurses and Midwives. Basically the standards and accredit organization for BC nurses and midwives.

There were two complaints lodged against Amy. The initial complaint was filed by Alec Turrif. He complained about Amy’s participation in putting up the short lived “I ❤️@jk_rowling” billboard. The billboard was decried as a “transphobic” dog whistle.

It remains to be seen if the billboard even still forms part of the College’s evidence but we do know that they lodged and then withdrew a complaint of “providing medically inaccurate information” with apparently no regard for the harm to Amy’s reputation.

The billboard complaint has led to a wholesale investigation of Amy’s social media for a certain time period while the College says that she publicly identified herself as a nurse. So you will see that much of the College’s evidence doesn’t seem to touch on the billboard at all.

Not sure why the College was allowed to vastly expand the area of investigation and see to punish Amy for things that go far beyond the initial complaint but IANAL. There was a later second complaint made anonymously as the complainant said they feared retribution

Back at the hearing.

KB is performing direct examination of AA, the investigator assigned to look into the complaints. Will pick up from tweet below.

https://twitter.com/goinglikeelsie/status/1572914632871682048

KB - is it part of your mandate for the College to follow tweets or public response for comments on the inquiry?
AA - unclear
KB- anon complaint was similar to Alex Turriff’s
AA - yes
KB - aware of postcards sent to College
AA - no
KB- letter from trans activist
AA - no

KB - support for Amy and/or sex based rights
AA - not relevant
KB - only investigated/gathered evidence re complaints
AA - billboard and Amy’s statements
KB - not interactions with patients
AA - only as member of public
KB - didn’t see post cards or trans activist letter

AA - dates are later, after investigation complete
KB - review any or aware of any public support for Amy
AA - not aware
KB - (wants to show evidence of support of Amy to AA)
BO objects

*Perhaps a good time to note that defence usually has wide leeway in performing cross and as you will see, BO seeks to limit that leeway in ways that KB (and sometimes the panel) do not agree with.

In at least one case (which I will note) defending against BO’s objection requires KB to reveal the thrust of her argument to the witnesses before she was ready to.

Otherwise, it is just tedious.

Back to cross

KB - it’s for cleanup on (JK tweets and TRA reposes to those tweets)

Panel doesn’t have, not admitted as exhibit. There is now the Day 1 lunch break and then we continue.

* Note, more housekeeping. AA investigated complaint & submitted to Board of Inquiry. Board of Inquiry then decides if complaint is sent to this Disciplinary Panel. As already mention complaint was also sent to Amy’s employer who as we will see took no action after meeting w Amy

Sorry, it’s the Inquiry Committee, they are not a board. See below for overview of processes. We are in now in step six.

KB - you didn’t send Pallatin’s full report to IC, you chose specific things to send
AA- yes
KB - you highlighted specific things to this panel that may be different that what was sent to IC, also “assisted by Pallatin”
AA - yes

KB - info in Pallatin report may be “true” but investigation report is not full Pallatin report?
AA - yes
KB you chose certain comments to highlight in your affidavit to this Panel
AA - yes, highlighted certain paragraphs of communications

KB - for example, only provided this panel with certain paragraphs of letter that Amy wrote to company about the taking down of I❤️@jk_rowling billboard
AA - include what I thought were “salient” points
KB - why did you think they were “salient”

BO objects if relevant

BO - this is hearing about citation not investigation.

KB - investigatory report is before this Panel. AA’s affidavit has effect on panel. Goes to question of the basis of College’s citation against Amy. Goes to whether/how Panel will consider report & what weight to give

Panel goes to break to consider

Panel upholds BO’s objection. Back to cross.

KB - obligation to find innocence, not just guilt of Amy
AA - yes as relevant to complaint
KB - but not public comment

BO objects that KB is asking same questions he objected to.

KB says she’s asking about role of investigation in public comment

Chair say okay, if public comment

KB - so not aware of public letters, we’re not provided as part of investigation? If something new, not included?
AA - not excluded on purpose

KB - agreed investigation was to gather both guilt and innocence evidence
AA - if come across
KB - Amy’s reactions (*and presumably what she was reacting to) goes to moral culpability?

BO objects

KB - goes to Amy’s state of mind which is relevant

AA- I included that Amy had received threats, was facing financial hardship
KB - from Pallatin report
AA - no, info was from Amy

Discussion between BO & KB if relevant or allowed after Panel’s ruling. BO says panel isn’t relying on steps of investigation done to produce report.

Only relying on report
KB says report put forward as review of Amy’s tweets, but only some shown, chosen because supposedly transphobic so not focussing on steps but saying if all tweets should have been shown.

AA - I think I have all tweets.

KB - how many hours did Pallatin take to collect tweets?
AA - no idea
KB - some of report does show some other tweets before or after Amy’s, could Pallatin have included more context?

BO objects. Says Amy will have opportunities to lead the evidence. Not appropriate now.

KB - come across word “terf”
AA - yes, trans exclusionary radical feminist
KB - derogatory?

BO objects

KB - term, “cotton ceiling”?
AA - yes
KB - any tweets of Amy’s that were calling for genocide?
AA - no

Cross of AA by KB done.

BO in reply.

KB said tweets were seized, they were all open source?
AA - yes all in public

BO done
No questions from Panel.

I am going to break here and when I start tweeting again, it will be the 1st. testimony of the College’s expert, ES, the Director of the UBC Nursing School.

academic.ubc.ca/academic-commu…

Next up for the College is Dr. Elizabeth Saewyc. ES is not a medical doctor. She has been a nurse and is currently the Director of the UBC School of Nursing. The same school that our Amy graduated from - with honours.

#IStandWithAmyHamm #nursewillspeak #womenwillspeak.

The College wants to qualify ES as an expert witness.

BO will lead ES through her qualifications, and then discuss the report that she prepared for the College with her

KB will cross examine ES on her qualification afterward.

I am not going to tweet the several pages of qualifications that BO led ES through but will summarize.

ES has experience dating back to receiving her Bachelor of Nursing in Minnesota. She is a full professor at UBC as well as the Director of the Nursing School. She was (is?) an RN for 17 years. Has a clinical background though really in clinical practice right now.

She provides clinical guidance to the WHO , TransCare BC the BC Public Health Service, member of CPATH and WPATH (attended latest conference in Montreal - was that the eunuch one?, does research on marginalized gender diverse youth in Canada.

Was a principle investigator on the Trans Health survey discussed here:

saravyc.ubc.ca/2018/05/06/tra…

Was Co-PI on the 2018 BC Adolescent Health Survey

mcs.bc.ca/pdf/balance_an…

Many peer reviewed articles, contributed to books, wrote abstracts, chapters on adolescences in nursing textbooks. Consulted for the White House (*thanks Obama, lol, JK) on many Boards ( Canadian Nursing Association, Canadian Academy of Nurses, American Academy of Nurses…etc)?

Now KB cross on qualifications. Some focus on how long it’s been since ES was in clinical practice. Some questions about relative novelty of current understanding of sex vs gender. What proportion of population is trans?

ES - under 1%, maybe .5% non binary

KB - What proportion of those are natal females?
ES - large % of both trans and NB. Disproportionately “assigned female at birth. Not a lot of research on trans population before 2013. Some school surveys (*brings in LGB people as is usual) but gender ID specifically in 2013.

KB - fair to say that though you’re a nurse that your focus on trans has only been since 2012ish
ES - focus solely on adolescents, only 2 adult studies. Primarily marginalized, homeless and sexually abused youth.
KD - had a 4500.00 dollar grant from Vancouver Foundation?

ES - set up booth at Pride, Had staff with clipboards. Both approached and waited for respondents so self selected participants.

KB asks about WPATH

ES explains acronym. Has been member for six years.

wpath.org

*Note - yes the latest one ES attended in Montreal was the eunuch one. And the dropping age requirements one.

ES
- has done no research on children, onset of puberty to 19years (in Canada, youth can be up to 30.
- no practice in a trans care clinic
- has done some clinical supervision (not trans) of nurses
- last direct clinical practice in 199
- CV is 154 pages

- since 2012 has addressed colleagues on trans issues via papers, reports..etc.

KB - no more questions
BO asks panel to qualify ES

Short break for panel to confer, ES is qualified as witness.

ES is qualified as expert to provide testimony on:
- nursing education
- nursing standards, competence & guidelines
- health & mental health conditions typically faced by trans people & outcomes
- harms faced by trans people in their interactions with the Health care system

Direct testimony of ES begins

- letter asking ES for expert report in Dec / 2020
- brief overview of report follows
- discusses what a nurse educator (@preta_6’s position) is
- may teach pre or post graduate nurses, supervise in clinical settings, give lectures, hold seminars

For to add that #IStandWithAmyHamm #nurseswillspeak #womenwillspeak 🤍💚💜

- nurse educators may also teach new areas of practice and new treatments and practises

BO - please discuss harms to trans people in HC setting

ES
-can be in a variety of places, not just gender affirming care, if they show up with a sports injury, the flu..etc

- key is that there is a pervasive assumption of gender
- happens in medical records, segregated health care units, process, even at the front desk saying Mr. instead of Mx.
- using former or current legal name vs. preferred name - this could put them

- having to have conversations about their bodies that aren’t relevant
- being mocked & disrespected
- being denied care
- BC Human Rights Tribunal says repeated or deliberate misgendering is disrespectful.

* Note : this is from a case I attended and that coincidentally our Amy @preta_6 covered.

thepostmillennial.com/watch-non-bina…

To me this case illustrates the insidious part of the HRT system.

Their rulings if not contested vis a judicial review become part of the case law so you end up with case law heavily influenced by a ruling given by non judges at quasi judicial hearing.

Double plus bad.

Back to ES

- may change focus to trans id or withdraw care (if for instance came in for help with diabetes
- insults
- saying or thunking that gender ID is a mental illness
- coercive interactions
- leads to loss of trust in HC system

- may not participate in research and/or disclose trans status
- may lead to avoiding care, missing screenings and having conditions become serious or acting too late for treatment

BO - please discuss current standards of care for trans people

ES

- textbooks address general ethical obligation
- generally reduce HC inequities
- less explicit in reference to gender
- related to HC for trans people but covered generally
- Nursing Code of Ethics says generally, safe,mcompassionate and competent care that honours dignity

- use inclusive language and person centred approach
- overall, standards in TransCare BC Training Modules and WPATH standards

*Note This is the same TransCare BC that sends parent seeking re non binary to a Tumblr blog written by several (now) 20 somethings.

Also the same WPATH that included Eunuchs in their most recent guidelines and removed already published age guidelines.

economist.com/united-states/…

In case you hit a paywall

archive.ph/2022.09.22-160…

BO now points ES to Amy’s public comments (not shown to us) and asks ES about general harms from denying the experience and/identity of trans people

ES
- disrespect for personhood
- trans people may think it’s part of the general views of the nursing profession

- it’s a denial of or disrespect for their experience
- tacit permission for others to double down and commit violence

BO - pls summarize how Amy’s comments harm trans people.

ES
- some clearly challenge the ideas of their expressed identities

- saying trans harm the rights of women and kids
- public ally challenging gender ID or preferred pronouns threatens the very existence of trans people.
- disrespects them, undermines their dignity
- they’re more likely to feel that they’ll have negative HC experiences.

BO’s direct is complete, KB will cross for defence.

KB - AA’s investigative report provided to you?
ES - yes, over 100 pages

KB asks ES what she know about Amy
ES knows that Amy been a reg nurse for over 10years, doesn’t know details of her practice except not in trans care

ES doesn’t know that Amy worked in the Downtown Eastside as a public health nurse serving marginalized communities.

ES knows that Amy has never received a complaint from a patient, not a trans patient or a member of another marginalized community.

ES knows that Amy has only received the two public complaints and both were about helping put up a I ❤️@jk_rowling billboard.

ES knows that Amy has never faced any disciplinary actions form the College (or her employer, even over these complaints)

ES

- doesn’t use the terms natal female and natal
males, uses cis men and cis women
- in areas of abortion and reproductive health, ES uses “people who can get pregnant
- in terms of equity for women in HC provision and settings, talks about heart attacks for cis women

KB makes brief comment about lesbians and BO objects.

ES

- yes, need experience on cis women but also trans women because of their hormones
- yes, discrimination against cis women in HC provision/reschedule but also trans women

*Note - KB refers to natal or bio women and ES answered with cis/trans or assigned at birth.

ES
- not a cardiologist
- variety of elements that go into sex, chromosomes, gonads, hormones, sex is not binary
- estimated % of intersex range from under 1% to 2%

- not sure if there’s a correlation between intersex and expressing a gender id
- says DDS is not disorder but differences of sexual development, also not gender ID
- only a tiny % may be trans
- doesn’t group DDS and trans

- DDS may be identified at birth, sex may not align but this doesn’t mean trans
- DDS may not be noted until puberty or even later
- not my area of expertise
- would not suggest all intersex people are trans

-yes, men sexually assault women but in her study of adolescents , some boys reported being assaulted by women
- yes, they were trading sex for housing and/or housing (still sexual assault)
- concept of intersexuality entered nursing around 2010
- it’s a black feminist theory

- yes, men commit more domestic violence against women but in her study of adolescent, some girls committed violence against boys with varied severity , no one killed anyone
- this was specific to youth, not trans youth
- about 2% of population is trans

- Nursing standards include respect and care for marginalized
- Amy bound by these standards
- familiar with tents on DTES
- begins to agree that it’s an outrage but…

BO objects to use of word “outrage”

Panel agrees to stand down for the day.

End of Day 1 of the @BCnursemidwife Disciplinary Panel Hearing for @preta_6, our own Amy Eileen Hamm.

Will pick up the continuation of KB’s cross in Day 2 notes soon.

#IStandWithAmyHamm #nurseswillpseak #womenwillspeak