Thread by @Obsolesence

So, the @sp_ehrcj has started. Every woman in the public gallery is wearing a scarf and clothing encompassing purple, white and green. We even have a suffragette in the room (sat behind Shona). Let the 2nd hearing of the Stage 2 amendment session begin.

@Rachael2Win & @TessWhite4NE speaking about their amendments, including what "living in their acquired gender" actually means & how anyone can be found to be behaving fraudulently when no-one knows what the bar is.

@JeremyRBalfour introduces his amendment which asks for clarification of impact of this Gender Recognition Reform Bill in relation to Article 9 of European Convention of Human Rights.@

@fultonsnp introduces his amendment relating to his desire for this Gender Recognition Certificate not to influence the decision of which prison a prisoner with a GRC is put in to.

@ShonaRobison responding. States the GRR Bill will not change the Equality Act (despite Scot Gov attending the Court of Sessions 2 weeks ago saying a GRC changes sex in all respects). So back to a #PickNMixSex. Says #GRRBill cannot overrule ECHR.

Repeats claim this is most widely consulted legislation ever, but ignores the polls that states the public is against this Bill. Shona also states Fulton Macgregors's amendment is unnecessary.

We are being given a Paddington Hard Stare from a member of the security staff in a way we don't normally get. 👀

All amendments discussed are withdrawn or voted down.
@jamiegreeneUK introduces his amendment that will up the consequences of acquiring a GRC fraudulently. Except no-one can define what is needed to get a GRC so how can you prove fraud? I feel like screaming this!

@ShonaRobison wearing a purple jacket today 👀

@MaggieChapman saying she will vote down this amendment because there is no evidence that anyone is acquiring a GRC fraudulently (despite hearing evidence none is *collected* not that no fraud occurs).

@pauline4glasgow pushes again to ask what a court would need to show to prove that someone us acting fraudulently @ShonaRobison replies that if there was evidence that someone was not intending to live in their acquired gender.

But NO-ONE WILL DEFINE WHAT LIVING IN YOUR ACQUIRED GENDER MEANS! So how can you prove fraud.
@Rachael2Win asks if we can now detail what living in your acquired gender means

@ShonaRobison says already covered. Nit providing any specifics. No-one the wiser. This is quite bonkers. This is going to become a piece of legislation and no-knows what "living in your acquired gender" means.

@BrianWhittle introduces his amendment relating to a GRC nit impact women's rights to female only sport.
@PamGosalMSP (wearing a suffragette lanyard) introduces her amendment relating to the GRC and the impact on women if faith. Says women have told her they have been too scared

to engage in this discussion because women are told they are bigots.
@jamiegreeneUK asking Oam is she wants all trans clinicians to declare their biological sex. Pam says a woman of faith (and I will add ALL women) have the right to state they want a biological sex

treating them. She now asks if the Section 22 protection, preventing anyone from disclosing that someone has a GRC is proportionate when the number of people being able to acquire a GRC will increase by an estimated x 10

I remember back at the start of this Bill Pam was quite and nervous. This is an unrecognisably confident and informed Pam. She is ON FIRE. Thank you @PamGosalMSP

These are some of the wonderful women listening to this hearing, wearing the best combination of colours in the world. #WomenWontWheesht

Comment from @SarahBoyack regarding consequences on gender incingruence healthcare as this bill will increase a greater number of people to apply, while the medical diagnosis is not now required. How can Scot Gov ensure a timely and sufficient provision for those that need it

@TessWhite4NE now discussing her detransitioning amendment and the need for analysing stats and effectively if this #GRRBill. Modifies Section 15, makes note of applications where someone has already acquired a GRC (ie detransitioning).

Also asking for data collected on applications and must include sex as recorded at birth, to understand the accurate stats if who is applying

Points out women were told not to wear scarves representing woman's sugfrage in this very committee hearing. Our rights are being undermined

@GlasgowPam mentioned that non-binary people are excluded (😢) . Says there are some concerns that a legal challenge will be made to this Bill should it pass.

@clairebakermsp discusses the class between Section 22 ( not disclosing someone has a GRC, is not presenting as per their biological sex) & the right for some roles open to those of a specific sex, such as those giving mammograms to women being female only.

*clash not class
Claire points out that someone can be excluded from a specific role based on their sex (so exclude a male from a female-specific role) regardless of gender reassignment protected characteristic status. But there is a lack of clarity and understanding

Claire's amendment is to review this clash and ensure schedule 9 (general occupational requirement) can be enforced. Amendment 151.

Minister agrees there needs to be accurate recording of data and analysis of how Bill works. Suggests a single review of all areas.3 years after system has bedded in. 3 years??? 3 sodding years?

Being challenged on why some suggested implementations are not possible. Minister says some data not currently collected and would be disproportionate (like...sex perhaps?)

Minister claiming information needs to exist for it to be collected. What is this fantasy data that is uncollectable I wonder? How many years unicorns running free on Glasgow Green? How many haggises live in Holyrood Park?

Minister says the section 22 which prevents anyone from disclosing that someone has a GRC will not be changed (which automatically terrifies an employer when also being asked to provide a female clinician to give a cervical smear but they only have Dave/Davinia what do they do?)

@BrianWhittle pointing out in many sports you are asked if you are male, female or NB, so this data can be collected and it is vital. But many sporting bodies, coaches & teachers are confused and don't know what to do. They need guidance, specific guidance.

Minister says responsibility of sporting bodies, not Scot Gov despite Dcot Gov's legislation. Also kmplies collecting sex of a person, biological sex, is not easy to collect. Why? We are all either male or female & if someone doesn't know which, they must not be given a GRC

Relating to @pamgosal's amendment (@ShonaRobison will not support the amendment relating women of faith knowing the sex of their healthcare provision. Minister says sometimes in an emergency you may get a trans doctor.

@Rachael2Win asking why some data is difficult to collect, some numbers are so tiny.

@PamGosalMSP points out that in the case of an emergency, the women of faith can accept a male treating females. But not when going to see a GP, no excuse to be unsure of sex of healthcare provider.
Shona says NHS will *try* to provide a female.

@Pamgosal really nor letting this go, if her Mum walked into a GPs surgery how does she know it is a female? Wouldn't think to ask.
Minister it's up to @NHSScotland to manage this situation. Again, some slopey shouldering, no acknowledgement of her role to play in this

confusion. @HumzaYousaf has written to @SP_EHRCJ to explain how @NHSScotland will deal with this shitstorm.

@Foysol4Lothian asking if @ShonaRobison has met with faith groups to discuss this #GRRBill. She has met the Faith & Belief Forum. Some supported the Bill, some didn't.

Parient's right charter says a patient has the right if choice to a female doctor but for some specialities this will be difficult.
@Foysol4Lothian says he organised a session with reps from every single religion and they reported they had not been consulted.

Just a longshot, is the Faith & Belief Forum funded by @scotgov by any chance?

@djohnsonmsp pointing out that this Bill will increase number of GRC holders so it's not acceptable to palm off responsibility on to NHS.
All the MSPs we have been contacting for over a year have now found their voices, strangely. Why weren't they engaged before Stage 1?

I am both delighted they have found spines (Labour re late to this game) but bloody annoyed @ScottishLabour have left it so late. Will Labour vote this #GRRBill down if they don't their amendments through.

@ShonaRobison now saying this reform is based in recommendations that @EHRC pushed for. More slopey shouldering?
We all need a break.

@ShonaRobison still talking about tiny data point, perhaps even single figures. Surely she is not talking about sex?
@ShonaRobison refers to @TessWhite4NE amendment that will review Bill in relation tomwomen&girls within 6 months of receiving royal assent. Won't vote for it

@Rachael2Win pushes again that @PamGosalMSP's amendment and concerns have not been addressed, regarding faith &sex.
@ShonaRobison says have to continue conversation (how nice). Doesn't think anything more can be done.

To avoid me standing up and screaming I will point out that 5 parliamentary staff members are sat in the front row of the public seating. This row is normally empty. It's almost as if...they are there to dampen to the impact of puple/white/green behind?

@ShonaRobison still squirming. Suggests patients may refuse treatment from individuals for a range of reasons, implying patients may refuse treatment on basis of...I'm going to guess she means skin colour. She is comparing requesting a female healthcare professional to

Being racist. @FoysolChoudhury suggests employers are being out at risk by making this decision (yes!).

Break

@Rachael2Win asked if women should be punished in sports because of their genetics by allowing males to compete in their teams and against them
@djohnsonmsp asks for amendment that confirms the Equality Act us not modified by these #GRRBill reforms.

I say again, I wish this level of engagement and scrutiny had been present from the start of this Bill and we might have been looking at the same legislation. Has it just become clear to these late to the party MSPs that there has always been more than 5 grumpy women against

this poor legislation, with many, many years concerns about self identification of sex.
Daniel talking about discussions with constituents who have asked him about how his daughter might experience a lack of safeguarding, say a male calling themselves a women in Guides

@pamgisal talking about how acquiring a GRC can be abused under the new dumbed-down drive-in GRC process.

@pauline4glasgow now pointing out that more people will be able to acquire a GRC and Scotgov have stated that ownership of a GRC does influence how a person is treated or excludes. It's confusing for all who need to deal qith this @ShonaRobison

Pauline on an excellent roll here, quoting policies from a sporting facility that states they can't exclude someone on the basis of their gender, when the law says they can. This is not acceptable, they must make the law clear so exceptions can be applied.

Member of public gallery stood up and lectured @shonarobison on not paying attention, not listening to other MSPs, asked to leave. Minister now sat upright and obviously paying attention. 👀

@BrianWhittle giving an excellent primer on why male and female bodies are different & this really matters in sport. It's unsafe for females to compete against males, and it is unsaid. Menstruation also impacts performance.

Trans-identifying females are possible on testosterone (which would be considered doping if they compete against females). Now talking about how no female has come near the performance of the East German doped females of the 80s.

Brian is making the same powerful arguments that @mara_yamauchi and @sharrond62 have been making for couple of years. You are all quite wonderful

Scotgov must not hide from safety issues, cannot wait for an injury before they address this issue.

@FoysolChoudhury is asking if a GRC under this #GRRBill will change ones legal sex as well as ones gender, in relation to the Equality Act. Must make this clear or we will fail legal challenges

This is not a responsible approach when approaching legislation of this significance. Poor engagement with impacted communities, handed down from MSPs in their ivory towers, leaving it down to frontline workers to police single-sex spaces themselves.

@GlasgowPam stating what she believed the interaction between #GRRBill and Equality Act (forgetting this is going to be sorted in court in @ForWomenScot vs Scotgov). But she asks that clarity is provided in Bill with additional of statement to say so

@clairebakermsp talks about the section 22 control which prevents anyone revealing who has a GRC and how this will have a chilling effect on service providers.

@ShonaRobison tells us she has been paying attention and making notes, in delayed response to member of public who expressed doubt.

Interesting. @ShonaRobison dodging and weaving here, saying Equality Act is reserved to Westminster. Saysshe will support the chocolate fireguard of an amendment from @glasgowpam (because we know the wording is ineffectual?.

@rachael2win asks how Minister can defend her statement when Scotgov was in court just 2 weeks ago claiming a GRC changes sex in all respects. We noticed, Shona, we were listening.

Oooh @jamiegreeneUK catching Shona out. He is saying that point of the Bill is not the same as the impact of the Bill and yet @ShonaRobison is only happy to support PDG's amendment but not the others that all say similar things (but say it better). Why Shona?

@BrianWhittle saying he knows that females are already being hurt in sports so this committee must clarify how these organisations need to behave.

@ShonaRobison telling us about protected characteristics now. I think it's a given we all know this.

You know, we have only heard from Maggie Chapman once in 3.5 hours. This is a record.

@ShonaRobison states that EHRC agree with Scotgov that a Scottish GRC does not change any aspect of the Equality Act (despite Scotgov and EHRC being in court 2 weeks ago saying that a GRC changes sex in all respects). Not sure if this is selective amnesia it cognitive dissonance

*or

@paulinemcneill asking the Minister to approach from another direction. How would Minister implement exclusions based on Scottish GRC. Says public bodies should be following EHRC guidance. If a public body believes it is proportionate to exclude someone (say from a gym) they can

Minister accepts each sport may have different needs regarding guidance on sex (remember @Scotlandteam still allow male players in female rugby teams) and that she wants them to take responsible, not through this Bill.

@BrianWhittle pointing out sports bodies are not doing this well, teachers, amateur coaches, they need help because they don't understand how to implement this legislation. Repeats, women will get hurt.

@ShonaRobison again says @EHRC guidance needs to be followed not @scotgov. She doesn't understand how any sporting body can not understand guidance from Sports Scotland. Sporting bodies are too scared of legal challenges to change policies

I repeat, Scottish rugby continue to allow all males to play in female rugby teams at all levels of the game except internationals. So @Scotlandteam , @ShonaRobison wants to know why you allow this?

@BrianWhittle is doing all but shouting "you can't handle the truth". Repeats AGAIN that sporting bodies are not implementing the guidance and women & children will be hurt.

Just going to drop this in here.
There is going to be a loooong queue of women going to give @Gussie a hug and a drink.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1595028730933559296?s=19

And this from the pretty damn perfect @GussieGrips

https://twitter.com/GussieGrips/status/1595024821272072193?s=19

@FoysolChoudhury asking again if females can be sure that there will be no (biological) males in their spaces, wards etc and women can continue to practise their faith.

@clairebaker pointing that out in addition to EHRC guidance there have has been other guidance produced (for schools) and they interact. Surely Scotgov has a responsibility to ensure guidance is clear

@ShonaRobison says @ehrc leads on providing guidance not Scotgov. @FoysolChoudhury pointing out EHRC agrees with his amendment and clarity should be on face of Bill. Strange how @ScotHumanRights are being ignored despite their evidence given so much wait

There is a theme here. @ShonaRobison is facing the greatest amount of scrutiny ever on this Bill. About bloody time. This is how legislation should be considered, with decent questions and expectation of considered questiona. Why have we waited 8 months for this.

@ShonaRobison again says she will only support the weakest proposed amendment that demands clarity of the impact of the Bill, unsurprisingly. Why so reticent on providing clarity, Shona?

@Rachael2Win saying public deserve reassurance that the the impact this Bill is clear and unambiguous. Scotgov is failing to out firewall between GRCs and the Equality Act. We are being failed. Says @glasgowpam's position just supports @thesnp. Oooh.

I have to say in this room @glasgowpam appears to be alone in @ScottishLabour in her lack of concerns over the #GRRBill.
@djohnsonmsp defends Labour whipping support of this Bill (there is no good reason not to have a free vote)

Sodding hell. Despite a heated debate voting is all as expected along party lines, with Pam Duncan Glancy voting with @theSNP. Oh she voted for @Brian Whittles amendment but it was still voted down. No surprises in this room. All these debates are pointless

There is nothing that would make @thesnp or @scottishgreens vote to change this Bill. I guess that's what happens when you put ideologues on a committee.

You know this is the same committee that will be considering conversion therapy later in 2023? Makes me wonder if there is any point. We know how every will vote right now, in 2022.

Experiencing whiplash at the speed of voting here. All entirely predictable and no significant changes have been made to plaster over the cracks in this poor bill.
@SarahBoyack now talking about her health amendment & how bad actors could abuse the system, predators

Example of Denmark, number of cases of abuse rose after their self ID implementation. Proving amendment asking Minister how monitoring would work for sex offenders, or in prisons.

@PamGosalMSP supports amendments that demand greater data collection, such as applications from prisons, why people are refused GRCs. Would allow measurement of estimated GRC applications to actual

@ShonaRobison directs the MSPs to the @NatRecordsScot and not Scotgov to collate data. May look in Stage 3. Need to be appropriate. Won't support any amendments so far.

@ShonaRobison says all sex offenders will be very good boys and attend a police station and tell the boys and girls in blue when they wish to change sex. Because sex offenders, as it says on the tin, totally reliable when it comes to warn the police *before* they commit a crime.

@pauline4glasgow asking @ShonaRobison why she is so reticent to close loophole to prevent bad actors from abusing the Bill? In short, we're not getting an answer. Draw whatever conclusion you wish from that.

I will conclude that protections can be put in place but @scotgov choose not to protect women & girls.

This is soul destroying. Any amendment seeking to improve this Bill is voted down. Scotgov don't see that anyone will abuse this Bill, that safeguarding that has been removed was required.

Stage 2 all over.