Thread by @Fact_Fem

Here we go...
#GRRBill Stage 3 Debate (Day 2)
Group 13: Interaction with the #EqualityAct 2010, the concept of sex, and single-sex services.

I'm gonna need some gin after this I think 🥴

Hamilton (Con) pressing the matter of recent @ForWomenScot judgement and impact on the #GRRBill.
Robison (SNP) states there are no changes to any protections under the euqlaity act. The bill does not amend the EA10. Judicial ruling doesn't impact the bill.
Thomson also pressing.

@ForWomenScot Stating that the #GRRBill doesn't alter the EA10, therefore not relevant, apparently.
"Bill provides reassurances that this doesn't modify the EA10."
Robison saying it's unnecessary to pick apart EA10 because it would be "confusing" and not needed.

@ForWomenScot Lots of interjections so far...
Kerr (Con) asking for a clear answer on whether male with GRC can access single-sex spaces.
Robison states that organisations can exclude males with a GRC from women's single-sex spaces if they want to. #GRRBill doesn't change the EA10 provisions.

@ForWomenScot Equality Act guidance and single-sex provisions is for the EHRC, not ScotGov.
Baker (Lab) - EHRC Stage2 briefing suggests EHRC think there is a role for ScotGov in guidance though.
Robison states they would work with EHRC should they want to rewrite their guidance due to #GRRBill

@ForWomenScot Duncan-Glancy (Lab) - protocols in place to support organisations in order to provide services, therefore acceptable for ScotGov to direct organisations on how to provide/delivery services on the basis of legislation.

Robison agrees on operation of #GRRBill, but not on EA2010.

Bill does not amend the sections of GRA2004 or EA2010. Incl. EA schedule 3, protected characteristics, definitions of sex ("man and woman").
Restates it doesn't modify EA10 and to pick it apart at Stage 3 would "cause confusion".

Liam Kerr (Con) - If a man with a GRC is a woman under FWS judgement, then how can legally exclude trans-identified men from a single-sex space.
Robison (frustrated) reiterating that #GRRBill doesn't change EA10 provisions and that trans-identified males *CAN BE EXCLUDED*.

Ash Regan (SNP) asks what assistance can be given to organisations who want to apply the single-sex provisions.
Robison (again frustrated) reiterates that this guidance for the EHRC, not ScotGov to deal with. #GRRBill

Doesn't support Hamilton's amendment (121) - duty to report on impact of #GRRBill on single-sex provision. Thinks it's "disproportionate".
Nor does SR support Pam Gosal's (Con) amendment (61) - duty to report on impact of bill on self-exclusion from services.

Concerning that Robison doesn't support measuring impact on women.

Robison: "No impact to measure from the bill, any self-exclusion to occur is more likely to be caused by misinformation and concerns." 💀
Doesn't see what funding of services has to do with #GRRBill either.

McNeill (Lab): 🔥
"Why rape crisis services have tried to use the exclusions have experienced resistance. Many orgs have tried to use lawful exemptions but don't seem to be able to. Does that give pause for concern?.. Can exclude anyone, but you can't ask about trans status..."

Pauline McNeill (Lab) making her fantastic point about single-sex exclusions and difficult for services!🔥
#GRRBill

Robison: Some amendments (if supported) may lead to #GRRBill being subject to legal challenge, meaning the entire bill would be put at "serious legal risk" and could not proceed.

Jackie Baillie (Lab) summarising her ammendments responding to concerns of women/groups in #GRRBill.
States concerns wrt #ReemAlsalem evidence.
Makes clear that single-sex provisions continue to apply unmodified. Copies the EA10 wording - primacy of the EA10.

Kerr (Con) - "chilling effect of what happens when there is an attempt to apply these exceptions by any organisation"

Great to see MSPs pointing out that having legal exemptions is not the only issue, but also the ability to implement them in practice #GRRBill

Robison trying to say it will be confusing, again.
Baillie saying her amendment does the exact opposite because it spells out "very clearly" that the exemptions are still relevant, incl. exclusions of trans-ID males regardless of GRC #GRRBill

Amendment could pass with rebel SNPs

Baillie is not persuaded by the "legal risk" argument from ScotGov.

Hamilton pointing out that Lady Haldane's judgement is an issue, because it subscribes to the status quo and nothing changes. Baillie disagrees. #GRRBill

Robison: Nothing changes in terms of EA10. Picking it apart is unhelpful (apparently, again).

Baillie: amendment is same as ScotGov amendment, but makes it "clear" there are single-sex exemptions.
Describes "policy vacuum" & "uncertainty" for service providers/users #GRRBill

Baillie doesn't agree ScotGov has no remit on EA guidance. Argues they are already providing guidance to schools, NHS etc #GRRBill

Ash Regan (SNP): #GRRBill "introduces a hierarchy of rights, where women's rights are demoted. Self-ID does grant new rights, as it will grant a GRC to almost anyone. This is not just an admin change or change in process that has no real world effect." 🔥🔥

Ash Regan really pressing on women's rights 🔥
"We're not going to be able to tell [who is genuine]. This now creates a situation where meber of a dominant group can self-ID into the rights of an oppressed group. And this is absolutely unprecedented." #GRRBill

"Claimed that impact on women and girls was assessed and that there was no impact."
"Data on the impact on women is not being collected.. if you don't collect the data you will not be able to assess the impact... For those who are looking, the impact is there to see." #GRRBill 🔥

"Women's single-sex spaces are important... males as a group are a risk to women... #GRRBill undermines this."

"Do you think women will be more or less safe as a results of this law. If you have any doubt at all that it will make women less safe, then you cannot vote for it." 😭

@AshtenRegan💜🤍💚
"Often say we use legislation to send a message... but I'm very very sad to say that the message today being sent out to women & girls in Scotland is that you don't matter. So I'm going to vote as if women do matter, and I'll be voting against the #GRRBill" 😭

@AshtenRegan Ash Regan (SNP) has absolutely stormed it. I so appreciate what she has said for women and girls, not just in Scotland, but across the UK.
To hear women in her position standing up for our rights and protections with such visceral feeling has really hit me. Thank you! 😭

Moving on...
Pauline McNeill again making the point that the #GRRBill goes beyond just basic administrative changes.
Someone people understand "sex" to mean something other than "biological sex". So what does this mean for the bill and EA10 following Haldane judgement?

McNeill continues... "Possession of a GRC clearly does matter for whether the exclusion on basis of sex is justified. Law requires you to assess if it's proportionate. Some are saying the judgement, GRC makes it more difficult to assess this."

Balfour (Con) suggesting the process be paused whilst SNPs and scholars understand the Haldane judgement following FWS court case.

McNeill outlines concerns about the interplay between GRA and EA10: (1) how to apply exceptions; (2) affect of self-ID. #GRBill

McNeill (Lab): "If service providers don't feel confident to use the law, what is the point of the law. You must provide these orgs with the confidence. You cant continue to rely on this issue that you can just make use of [excemptions]" #GRRBill

She gives examples...

McNeill continues... Kevin Stewart's letter admitting he'd been asked by hospital boards for clarification. But there was nothing in the letter from Stewart to health boards about the law.
"Atrocious" to put the onus on them to understand what to do. #GRRBill

"No one in public sector is mentioning exemptions. I don't know why the gov is not more concerned by this. It's in the interest of all users/patients. It's in the interest if you believe in the policy/legislation to sort this out... It's a total misreading of the law" #GRRBill

NHS Aaron & Ayr as "worst example because it's a total misreading of the law... says placing trans patient in single-occupancy room could be discriminatory... & female patients who raise concerns were comparable with racists & have been told that they will be removed." #GRRBill

McNeill rightly frustrated. Continues to press ScotGov on these exemptions and the issues that services are facing when choosing to put those provisions in place.
Reiterates Reem Alsalem's evidence and lack of data collection - conflating sex and gender categories #GRRBill

@pauline4glasgow outlines it isn't just an issue of legal competency, but also confidence.
"Term 'proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim' is an absolutely meaningless phrase in law if you cannot tell public providers what it actually means in the first place." #GRRBill

Claire Baker (Lab) argues rights will be extended to a new group of people - not just admin/process change.
Continues to press that there is public service confusion in interpreting the law on single-sex provisions.
Also highlights issues of 'disclosure' with GRA2004. #GRRBill

Reiterates the "chilling effect" from lack of clarity and restrictions in GRA04 and EA10 about disclosing GRC.

Deeply concerning... Health boards are confused. Lack of clarity on 'Section 22' - boards think it prevents them from providing female only care #GRRBill

Once again, another MSP (Baker) is asking ScotGov to provide clear and explicit guidance about EA10, #GRRBill & single-sex exemptions.
But still concerned that guidance will resolve the issues arising from the #GRRBill.
Why is providing clear guidance an issue?

Rachael Hamilton (Con) now... her amendments aim to provide clarity on single-sex exemptions in relation to #GRRBill.
Highlights issue of women self-excluding.
"Women have received no assurance that their rights will be protected... repeatedly shut down and brushed aside."

Pam Gosal (Con) now... received 100s of emails/letters.
"No good legislation ever comes from betraying the rights of one group to the convenience of another. In other words... this should not come at the expense of women and girls, vulnerable individuals and children." #GRRBill

Amendments seeking to offer minimum reassurance for women. "Hope at least some form of reassurance for women. Some form of comfort that their rights under the EA10 are not being eroded." #GRRBill

Gosal's amendments (61 & 123) require ministers to provide an annual report of impact of #GRRBill on self-exclusion from services.
123 - impact of #GRRBill on funding for single-sex services.

Gosal mentions @jk_rowling Beira's Place as an example...
"Why does it take feminists like JKR to step in and provide a solution to an identified problem, whilst the SNP gov sits on its hands and denies that such a problem exists."

Asking that the ScotGov "at the very least monitor and review" the impact of #GRRBill on self-exclusion from services and funding for single-sex spaces.
Looking for clarity on protection for single-sex spaces.
Listing all the amendments in relation this. There are a lot!

Sue Webber's (Con) amendments also asking for clarity on guidance for single-service services, specifically female-only services regardless of GRC.
States that ScotGov seems to imply that it is not lawful to exclude on basis of sex #GRRBill

Brings up numerous examples - DV services, carer services. Mention dignity! Good, as not just about safety!
The public deserve to know when these exemptions apply. Amendment specifically compels ministers to provide guidance how #GRRBill interact with EA10 exemptions.

"Stakeholders have been very clear they are unsure how this applies to their orgs. Can the CabSec name examples of when it is proportionate?"

Makes a very good point that the language of the guidance needs to be comprehensive but clear/easy to understand without lawyer. #GRRBill

Webber: "We are here to make good law, and as part of that we have to provide certainty to the public... ambiguity must be removed. I do not believe this certainty has been provided by the SNP ministers throughout the passage of this #GRRBill."

Jeremy Balfour (Con) states that the amendments in this grouping are probably some of the most important amendments debated for #GRRBill.
Reads out statement from a staff nurse - female patient requesting female only care, and not knowing what to do. Can CabSec clarify?

Balfour Stressing the lack of clarity:
"Heard from speakers that there is clarity, but here is an individual who doesn't know what to do. Not sure I fully agree that there is clarity in regards to what the law is. We've heard from [various] that there is not clarity." #GRRBill

Shona Robison interjects to refer to EHRC guidance. Points out exceptions for health services. Haldane judgements doesn't change that.
Balfour says she is missing the point if trans-ID male is the only options for the patient on that shift. There is no advice no this. #GRRBill

Balfour argues ScotGov are one-sided:
"Consultation been constantly one-sided. Women's rights orgs have told us that they feel ignored throughout this process. [Alsalem] had her voice ignored in favour of another *male* UN expert that the ScotGov preferred to listen to." #GRRBill

ScotGov failed to address the Haldane judgement about those with a GRC being included in the definition of 'sex' under the EqAct2010.
Still hasn't got clarity on why ScotGov won't consult public bodies on the impact of #GRRBill, despite consulting with them all the time.

Maggie Chapman (Grn) *groan* - Says MSPs recieved "A Practical Guide to Transgender Law" by White & Newbegin.
'Introductory sections on the facts/language related to trans, & then substantial sections on relevant parts of EqA10 as related to trans & GRA04' #GRRBill
Hmm.... 🤔

For those in doubt, Robin Moira White is a trans-identified male. Nicola Newbegin works with "trans-related cases". #GRRBill
oldsquare.co.uk/book-launch-ro…

Graham Simpson (Con) reads letter:
"I know how important trust is within trauma services in relation to who is there with you in waiting rooms counselling or therapy sessions. EA10 allows someone with protected charac. of Gender Reas. to be excluded from SingleSexSpaces" #GRRBill

"Change in GRC changes the startng point. Everyone with a GRC would be presumed to be within the SSS because of [Handale] judgement, GRC changes the person's sex for the purposes of the EA10, exclusion of those with a diff biological sex but with GRC is more difficult." #GRRBill

Shona Robinson winding up the Group 13 now [finally!]

Says she *has* been listening. That it isn't the intent behind the amendments, but the impact of them on #GRRBill
"For avoidance of doubt, nothing within the equality act changes." Then why not include the wording?

Again, Robison argues that it will put the #GRRBill "at risk".

Greene asks why improving guidance and reporting in legislation would put the bill at risk?
Robison: Can't review impact of the EA10, because responsibility is on EHRC. Clarity for public bodies, has to be EHRC led

Johnson: Clarity on whether legislation passed refers to UK legislation, that becomes "incompetent"? Using a definition on basis of UK law is [legally] incompetenent?
Robison: Not saying that. Only when amendment goes further than referring to EA10.
#GRRBill

Robison: #GRRBill doesn't change legalities of GRC as set out in GRA04. EA10 allows for SSServices & "exclusion of transwomen where proportionate whether they have legally changed their gender or not."
Wants to ensure everyone's rights are protected🥴
Prepared to work wih EHRC.

Robison says Haldane is consistent with EHRC.
"Sex takes into account the legal affect of a GRC in accordance with the GRA 2004. Nothing has changed from that judgement and is the position now."

Not sure about you, but that isn't clear to me now?

Sue Webber (Con) has asked for specific example of "where it is proportionate to discriminate against those with a GRC for the purposes of providing a single-sex service"
Robison refers to EHRC guidance. Gives example of services for victims of male violence #GRRBill

Robison claims that UK government women and equalities committee concluded that UK system should be reformed along lines of #GRRBill.

Robison trying to assert that women's orgs are in favour of #GRRBill:
"I've met with women's orgs who are for and against this bill. Many of the women's orgs providing services for the most vilnerable women actually support this bill and that's important to note."

"At the heart of many of the policies has been absolutely the protection of women/girls. Whether it's through legislation on DV or groundbreaking 'Equally Safe' strategy. Work on misogyny legislation is under way & will consult on that very soon." #GRRBill
Misogyny legislation😬

Baillie responds: "Work of successive gov have indeed done as she describes, which is why I'm genuinely confused as to why she won't support Am. 130.... these are the very issues that a lot of women & women's orgs have said they have concerns about." #GRRBill

Robison reiterates that EA10 is not changed by #GRRBill
"Single-sex exemptions are absolutely guaranteed in the same way since the Equality Act 2010 came into being. This bill has no intention of changing that whatsoever."

Douglas Ross on ruling of presiding officer regarding Hamilton's manuscript amd. Asking if because limited time available in schedule.
Chair telling him off and told to sit down: "Skirting close to contempt of this parliament by calling into Q a ruling by presiding officer" 😬

And now the vote!! FINALLY!

#GRRBill Amd. 54 - Ministers to publish guidance about the operation of this Act. *AGREED*
Yes 94
No 31

#GRRBill Amd. 111 (Ballie) - Guidance for public bodies *NOT AGREED*
Yes 58
No 65
Abs. 2

[BREAK TIME]

#GRRBill Amd. 113 (Regan) - Bill doesn't impact Section 11 or definitions of EA10 *NO AGREED*
Yes 60
No 66

#GRRBill Amd. 114 (Greene) - Aggravation of offence for fraud *AGREED*
Yes 98
No 14
Abs. 14

#GRRBill Amd. 115 (Greene) - Revocation of certificate in criminal proceedings *AGREED*
Yes 100
No 10
Abs. 17

#GRRBill Amd. 116 (Hamilton) - Offence of gaining fraudulent access to single sex services *NOT AGREED*
Yes 37
No 76
Abs. 12

#GRRBill Amd. 117 (McNeill) - Guidance on effect of having a GRC *NOT AGREED*
Yes 59
No 67
Abs. 1

#GRRBill Amd. 118 (Baker) - Guidance on occupational exceptions *NOT AGREED*
Yes 57
No 70

#GRRBill Amd. 119 (Baker) - Guidance on occupational exceptions *NOT AGREED*
Yes 56
No 70
Abs. 1

#GRRBill Amd. 120 (Hamilton) - Guidance for separate, single and concessionary services, etc. *NOT AGREED*
Yes 59
No 67
Abs 1

#GRRBill Amd. 121 (Hamilton) - Report on impact of this Act on the provision of single sex services *NOT AGREED*
Yes 59
No 67
Abs. 1

All other business will be moved to tomorrow afternoon.
Group 15 (Review of Act) next 👇

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