Thread by @Fact_Fem

#GRRBill Stage 3 Debate (Day 2)
Group 16: Operation and impact of the Act

John Mason (SNP) introduces the group
Starts with his own Amd. 122 - concerning prisons #KPSS

Prisons have featured prominetly, esecially who should be in which prisons.
Cabinet have said they are reviewing prisons guidance. Told that "each case is currently decided on its own merits" #GRRBill #KPSS

Mason: "Someone born as a man, but identifying as a woman, could be placed in women's prison if reckoned not to be a threat to women & also if reckoned to be at risk in the men's prison. Important that risk to the prisoner & other inmates is taken into account." #GRRBill #KPSS

Pam Gosal - ScotGov failed to listen to ethnic/religious minority groups.
Am. 57 - Address self-ID & section 22 of GRA04. Requires ministers to report on impact on patients where knowledge of biological sex is required for healthcare, incl. for religious reasons. #GRRBill

Religious women/groups expresse concerns that #GRRBill could interfere with their religon.
E.g. Sikh & Muslim women.
Mother doesn't want a biological male - apologies for language (Pam, don't apologise!).

Argues concerns of women.
Don't feel they can ask abt bio sex or they can't tell. Worried about using the right word. Mentions human rights to religious freedom will be impacted. Also for vulnerable generally.
Says religious groups were frightened to attend sessions #GRRBill

Ruth McGuire interjects:
"Appreciate what Pam is saying. Would she agree with me even if not ever person of faith needs single-sex care that we have to listen to those that do" 🔥 #GRRBill

Gosal goes on to discuss vulnerable groups - will an elderly women in care home be guaranteed a female carer to wash & dress her. Cannot guarantee on basis of this #GRRBill

Opens up GRC process to group of unknown size and characteristics.

Many services providers wont be at liberty to confirm t patient whether biologically female due to section 22 privacy provisions in GRA.

Absence of amendments on privacy protections - Gosal's amendments voted down so least they can do is monitor the impact on healthcare #GRRBill

Support Am. 122 - ensures that #GRRBill doesn't change how prisons currently operate.
Amds. 58 59 67 68 - impact on sports and of more GRC leading to more biological males participating in female sports.
Am. 131 - ministers to consult women/girls on how impact should be reported.

Brian Whittle (Con) - Amd. 58 59 67 to publish guidance and collect data on the impact of #GRRBill on sports.
Committee didn't take evidence from any sportswomen, despite being offered. Instead took evidence from TRAs and men twice.

Whittle - Sportswomen being warned not to speak out. Other threatened with expulsion. These women should not be branded as transphobic.
Ministers should publish guidance and data on the impact.

Superb! Thanks Whittle! #GRRBill

Additional amendments on guidance and reporting on the impact of the #GRRBill - help in the implementation of the act and monitoring the act in practice.

"Significant implications for the operation of the EA in Scotland"

"Sport globally is in turmoil trying to deal with [this issue]. It varies from sport to sport. Country to country. Even state to state [in US]."
Mentions Caster Semenya and "intersex" athletes - have been banned from competing unless suppressing testosterone #GRRBill

World Athletics introduced a 3rd category. Arguing for a 3rd sports category. They feel more validated etc.
I'm not sure what this point of this level of detail is... what does it have to do with #GRRBill

Sport can't be subjective. Not just national governing bodies who make decisions on sports, but also teachers and coaches.
Fall out from wrong decision is "significant".
Explains differences between male and female bodies - dangerous for women and unfair advantage #GRRBill

Goes on to explain "Q angle" of legs/hips, ling capacity etc. Trans-ID female taking testosterone - "legalised doping... only elite levels that anti-doping is present."
Discusses East German state-doping of 1980s.
Details example of male vs. female in elite sport #GRRBill

Whittle: "At Stage 2 CabSec said she cannot be expected to decide which sports are affected. Doesn't need to because sport has done that already for you. It's why sport has a women's category to ensure fairness and safety... we must protect women's rights and sports." #GRRBill

Brief suspension as MSP sick. Fine now.
Balfour interjects asks to adjourn proceedings. Groans in chamber #GRRBill
Balfour: "Appreciate some members don't want to hear from disabled members."
To consider the rest of amendments tomorrow afternoon. Mentions caring responsibilities.

Whittle continues.. "Long fight to try get equality between men and women's sport... We must protect women's rights. We all want equality in society. As I've said before we do not create equality in one group whilst creating inequality for another." #GRRBill

Outlines changes to protect women's sport in Denmark.
Robison interjects - sport is not a devolved matter.
Whittle responds: "As previously CabSec for Sport & Health, you will recognise that we do have an Org called 'Sport Scotland' in this country."
Asking for guidance #GRRBill

Whittle outlines clinical relevance of sex - e.g. radiation dosage CT scans. Dosage differs by sex.
Examples of mistakes made: (1) wrong dosage of CT scan for pregnant trans-ID female;
(2) CT scan on trans-ID male with prostate cancer, mistaken as growth on ultrasound. #GRRBill

Suspect Whittle is using this as opportunity to get ridiculousness of various issues on record in the debate.
Goes no to mention language in healthcare guidance - "cervix-haver" why not "prostate-haver".
Cannot pass #GRRBill and then amend at later date. Don't hide behind whip.

After 50mins, Whittle ends.
Balfour adds to points made about impact on ethnic/religious minority women and women's sports. #GRRBill

Balfour: "We all know when we become teens to keep acively involved in sport is very difficult. If my daughter will never have oportunity to win, or has to put body in danger, she will walk away. I think this can have dangerous consequences for keeping children healthy." #GRRBill

Ash Regan (SNP) - Female artist in Norway arrested for asserting men cannot be lesbians. #GRRBill
Talking about suffragettes (Mary Richardson). Struck by parallels with threats and violence towards women, simply for saying something that they don't agree with.

Regan: "Want to ensure won't be compelled to speak about holder of a GRC in any particular way because they hold a GRC. @MForstater judgement made clear that the protection of a belief means nothing without protection to express that belief." #GRRBill

Tess White (Con)
Am. 131 - stat.duty for ministers to consult with women and girls on how and how often they should report on impact of #GRRBill

White: "Deeply concerned by lack of debate of these amendments at S2 proceedings... felt like a microcosm of the wider #GRRBill debate/impact on women/girls. Dodging the key issues & denying there's an problem to begin with. events demonstrate precisely why these am. are needed."

Evidence from Reem Alsalem and Haldane judgement. Tories called for #GRRBill to be paused whilst impact of the judgement is concerned.
"Unintended consequences could be greater for rights/safety of women and girls... real risk that women wil self-exclude from services."

Gibson (SNP) - discusses women's prisons.
Gov repsonsible for care of women in prison.
Swedish study showing male pattern of criminality in trans-ID males. No more/less likely to commit crimes.

March 22 Eng/Wales - 230 trans-ID males in prison, 42% sex offenders #GRRBill #KPSS

"As they are no more likely to commit sexual offences the obvious corollary is that there must be a sig. nu,m of sex offenders in prison who falsely claim to be trans. Men who commit sexual offences may claim to be trans to avoid the men's estate." #GRRBill #KPSS

Gibson quotes @HotchkissRhona:
"Women being exploited as unwilling participants in a social experiment. By being housed with trans-ID males their concerns, fears, despairs, must take second place to the feelings of men identifying as women." #GRRBill #KPSS

@HotchkissRhona Gibson: "If a fox said it was a chicken, would you put it in a hen house? *Of course not*" #GRRBill #KPSS

@HotchkissRhona Stephen Kerr (Con) - Agrees with Gibson. Not easy things to talk about as people may wish to take offence. Important to speak as freely as they are. Immense degree of respect.
Mercedes Villalba (Lab) thinks Gibson was "bordering on hate speech". 🥴 #GRRBill

Kerr talks about the importance of religion. Questions asked about the continued ability of religious instutions to mainatin sex-segregated spaces. Asks colleagues for consideration of those who are religious #GRRBill

Ross Greer (SNP) - "Many trans/NB people are of faith & he's not speaking on their behalf."

Kerr: "Accept that people may feel diff or have diff view from us, even though we may have a view of the origins or motives of those beliefs."

Describes faith groups' concerns #GRRBill

Kerr outlines potential issues for religious groups - priesthood and biological sex; what happens with a GRC? What will be legal or not?
Protections for religious people and their human rights. Gov are required to "facilitate enjoyment of basic human rights". #GRRBill

Monica Lennon (Lab) asks what circumstances Kerr would support #GRRBill
Kerr makes clear he & others "trying to introduce amendments that will make what we believe is bad law, less bad. Am I going to vote for this bill? Absolutely not... I want to save Scotland from more bad law"

Robison responds to Kerr: "I would just remind Stephen Kerr that it's his party in Gov that wants to repeal human rights legislation that has protected many people for decades." #GRRBill

Robison not clear how prisons affected by #GRRBill
"Robust risk based procedure for prisoners & prison pop. May or may not place trans person in estate of 'acquired gender' whether or not they have a GRC. If they did, they not put them mixing with other prisoners." #GRRBill #KPSS

Michelle Thomson restates concern is women in prisons.
Robison: "Different position in Eng/Wales - GRC more material factor in where prisoner is located. Not case in Scotland where based on risk assessment. May not mix with prisoners if believed a risk to others." #KPSS #GRRBill

Robison now stating that care home and healthcare orgs will always try to ensure women will get the care they want, if possible. Might not be possible in urgent/emergency cases.
Points to guidance again. Doesn't support Pam Gosal's amd. on female provision #GRRBill

Lennon interjects to state she wants it on the record that "trans/NB colleagues in the NHS are valued."

But no comment on whether female patients are valued though? We see where the priorities are... #GRRBill

Robison repeatedly refers to *guidance*.
Whittle clearly frustrated interjects.
Robison "as long as it's brief" - Groans from chamber.
Whittle: "What I'm trying to say is the guidance is not working. It's not working... not enough to have guidance. Has to have worth." #GRRBill

Whittle: ScotGov funds Sport Scotland. Scotgov should take some responsibility.
Robison says sports bodies via EA10 determine their policies. Guidance encourages sports to balance fairness, safety & inclusion. Will differ by sport. Restates that sport is reserved matter #GRRBill

Mason (SNP) wrapping up Group 16 (Operation/Impact).
Says Gosal's speech was "excellent... gave us some practical examples... sometimes with this debate we have to look at what is happening in practice & what people are feeling. Not just a high level Holyrood bubble." #GRRBill

Mason highlight issues for religious groups again.
Kevin Stewart (SNP) says he respects faith groups, "but some of the arguments being made are exactly the same arguments being made in the run up to the equal marriage vote... exactly same situation." #GRRBill

Mason: If true that committee didn't listen to sportswomen then that is a "serious problem".
Take point on EA10 but lot of sports bodies relavtively small and easily scared by legislation without guidance. The amds. only asking for guidance/reports and not a big ask #GRRBill

Mason: Concerns amongst "normal people in society"
Importance of language - should be respectful but have to be honest & use honest language.
"Fears with #GRRBill is overtime language going to be censored & people are going to have to be increasingly careful about what they say."

#GRRBill Amd. 122 (Mason)- Impact of Act on Scottish Ministers’ functions in relation to prisons
*NOT AGREED*
Yes 59
No 65

#GRRBill Amd. 57 (Gosal) - Impact of this Act on religious groups
*NOT AGREED*
Yes 38
No 64
Abs. 23

#GRRBill Amd. 58 (Whittle) - Impact of this Act on sport
*NOT AGREED*
Yes 61
No 64
Abs. 1

#GRRBill Amd. 59 (Whittle) - Guidance on sporting activities
*NOT AGREED*
Yes 58
No 67
Abs. 1

#GRRBill Amd. 60 (Baillie) - Leave out section 14B (not a clue what this refers to)
*AGREED*
Yes 122
No 0
Abs. 3

#GRRBill Amd. 61 (Gosal) - Impact of the Act on self-exclusion
*NOT AGREED*
Yes 40
No 66
Abs. 20

ONTO THE NEXT GROUP! 👇

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