Thread by @lymanstoneky

I've had people ask my take on the #asburyrevival since I'm one of the more prominent Wilmore natives on this here cesspool website. My "take" is I live in Canada and haven't been so I can't really add anything firsthand. All I can do is relay what I've heard.

So full disclosure, I am insanely biased. My family has a close association with both this and the 1970 revival. For Asbury-connected folks: Robert Coleman is my grandpa, and my mom is the person keeping him functional at 95. Many of his books ship out of our basement.

And my dad @lgstone is a professor at Asbury. My parents are Asbury college grads. And all my Facebook feed and groupchats with friends back home are inundated with people at the #asburyrevival . So, again, I AM WILDLY BIASED HERE.

Having made my disclosure on that front, let's give my disclosure on the other front. I am no longer a member of a church in the Wesleyan/Holiness/Methodist broad tradition. I am a Lutheran. In my current confession, the word "revival" provokes immediate cringe and alarm.

A Lutheran revival means somebody gave a hug instead of a handshake; that is it; that is as much as we will allow.

So I'm in a weird spot where I'm confessionally tied to one of the few conservative denominations to really consciously separate from the Revival/BG Crusade evangelical mainstream, and also I am inextricably bound my kinship, friendship, and heritage to revivalism.

I grew up in campmeetings people.

(for the record, they are the bomb dot com, their gradual choking death is a terrible thing)

So, now that I've disclosed all my conflicts, what do I hear about the #asburyrevival ?

First, if you are seeing Facebook posts about miracle healings and really ecstatic happenings... that is not the modal or median experience.

Asbury is a culturally pretty strongly anti-Pentecostal community. It's a staid place. "Signs and wonders" "Miracle healings" "End times prophecy" are extremely NOT the vibe. The vibe in Asbury culture is you drink too much you party too much don't shop on Sunday read your Bible.

And from what I'm hearing from most attendees, that's the main vibe at the revival. The preaching is just normal preaching, not swept up in the spirit over the top emotionalism. It's not mood lighting and thumping bass. Normal lighting and normal church music.

Yes people are praying and laying on hands; Wesleyans are touchers folks, it's the way God made them and they can't help it, you can't fault them. Just like you can't fault Lutherans for breaking out into hives when touched. It's just how God made us.

But every credible account I've seen from somebody who didn't seem to be posting "for national consumption" has basically said the same thing: there was nothing environmentally unique about the service in the sense of music/preaching/whatever.

Rather, what everybody has said is that the experience of seeing so many people be carried along in the spirit *by basically normal church* is itself moving. It is precisely that the style of the Asbury revival is *not* especially hypnotic, and yet moves, that is so moving.

And the modal experience of this if you go is that it's basically a normal church service if you attend a passionate Methodist or Wesleyan community, except that there are a lot of people actually responding to it in emotive and visible ways. Which is contagious.

Now, as a Lutheran, two takes on that contagion. On the one hand, I'm catechized to raise an eyebrow. Is that the spirit working miraculously through vibes? Without clear means? Really? Or is it false piety and enthusiasm abusing the name of the Spirit?

My view: both!

Some of the people at the revival are tourists. Others are pilgrims. I don't know who is who. Neither do you. Some are people on whom God is working through hearing the word, prayer, reading the word, and the mutual consolation of believers. Others are making a nice show of it.

But ya know what?

So has it always been!

You think everybody baptized in Acts died a Christian? No way! Fakers have always been around! None of the disciples saw Judas' betrayal coming!

If your critique of a revival is that some nonzero percent of people there are engaged in performative false piety then oh boy have I got some news for you about, well, you. Yourself. The nature of all human piety and of the human heart.

Now on a meta level I share the Lutheran critique of Holiness revivalism: they are naive about the perfectability of the human heart and therefore naive about the extent of false piety, which opens the door in some cases to abuse.

But what nutty person looks at a revival where there are as of yet no reported abuses and where people are very obviously being led by the Spirit into valid trinitarian baptisms and holy repentance from sin and goes "gosh, the naivete of perfectability!"

Would that we were all so naive that we earnestly believed that sinners would repent and the lost be saved!

I saw a Facebook friend share this, and I think it is apt:

Now look. As the number of out-of-towners rises, it's anyone's guess where this will all go. Wilmore is a freaky weird corner of the world where a lot of subcultures come together in an absurdly positive, healthy, wholesome, and Christ-centered way. That might not scale.

But I'll be honest, my prayer isn't for all the visitors. Wilmore has changed a lot in recent decades as a bunch of pagan Lexingtonians have invaded because our public school is good and crime rate low. They don't understand that's BECAUSE OF THE CULTURE.

So they're out there selling weird crystals at the farmer's market and don't realize that *the reason* Wilmore has such stupendous quality of life *is that* it is a town with an ethos. I hope this revival convinces more of the new folks to get with the program.

(or to leave because they can't stomach the occasional week-long traffic jam at the two stoplights because there's a revival)

I know that seems like a weird hope, but honestly with so few places like Wilmore left in the world I care more deeply for that place than for all the pilgrims in the world, because I am a selfish and sinful man who loves his home very much.

Okay more on the revival. You may indeed have seen reports of healings. This is not the typical experience. Ecstatic, charismatic occurrences, whether healings or especially unusual worship configurations make great photo ops and stories.

Especially if you aren't actually from a Wesleyan/Holiness/Methodist background, if you desire to portray Asbury as an Azusa-type occurrence (for good or ill), or if you are a journalist just wanting to make religious people look weird....

.... then privileging the story of the few "miracle healings" over the innumerable healings of relationships, hearts, and sins is very appealing. But in my view, it's aserious mistake. The serious work God is doing in the revival isn't medical but spiritual.

If it so happens that the lame occasionally walk, very cool and all, especially for them. But it is better to be crippled and healed in hard than walk in unbelief. The beauty of revivals is in what they do to human hearts, not bodies.

I hope that coverage of the revival will eventually get around to asking people what the revival has done for their marriages, for their children, for their relationships, for their churches, for their trust and hope in the Lord, and less about other rando stuff.

Adding to this thread about the #asburyrevival to give some reflections about how to understand these revivals *as a Lutheran*. The discussion on Lutheran Facebook has been interesting and reflects a lot of misunderstanding.

https://twitter.com/lymanstoneky/status/1625665494320545792

So let's start with what the Wesleyan/Methodist/Holiness tradition *says* is happening at a Revival.

In that tradition, they believe that "where two or more are gathered," the Holy Spirit will indeed come among them in a "real" way.

And where MANY MANY are gethered, even more so. There's a strong belief in this tradition that God desires His people to come together in prayer and praise and on that basis, He responds. They believe in a "real presence" "in the room" almost the way we do in the bread and wine.

So the belief in a revival is that a unique gathering of faithful believers basically take the "two or more" dynamic and are ratcheting it waaay upwards. The Holy Spirit is extraordinarily present, pouring out unique blessings on this connected to the revival.

Those blessings are primarily things that Lutherans would characterize as Law, not Gospel. That is, you will see people saying the Spirit moved people to make decisions, to commit to life change, to open their hearts to Jesus.... the Spirit worked uniquely to provoke humans to DO

From a Lutheran view, the Holiness understanding of grace and the Gospel is impoverished. But it's crucial to understand that *within the Holiness tradition*, they would argue that the Gospel is occurring "before" the Law: prevenient grace.

The Holy Spirit works powerfully to open peoples' hearts to conviction, and the people respond with action.

Again, I don't think this is correct theology, but this is the belief.

Up to hear, it would be easy for Lutherans to just be like "ah, they're nuts."

But it's not so easy.

Because the thing is, valid Trinitarian baptisms are happening. There truly is an outpouring of Christian confession and repentance. There isn't terrible heresy being shouted from the stage. It's not Pentecostal signs and wonders and end-times.

People who speak in tongues have been told this is not the community norm and will cause division, and asked to cease or exit. National Christian celebrities who are insufficiently orthodox have been blocked from the stage and the microphone.

Asbury is fencing off their practice as aggressively as any Confessional LCMS church fences the table; it's just that the Holiness tradition's practice has a gate through which they believe strangers may enter into the real presence.

My point is, Asbury is a rock-solid Biblically orthodox community and this revival is overwhelmingly typified by explicit scriptural foundations (albeit through a Holiness lens) and resistance to the kinds of extremist enthusiasm that Lutherans so abhor.

So we can't *just* say they're crazy Holiness weirdos. They are crazy Holiness weirdos.... through whom God is working the salvation of many lost souls and the sanctification of many Christians.

How is this occurring?

For this, Lutherans have to go back to the basics, and I mean the 5 means of grace articulated in the Book of Concord as being vehicles through which we receive the good gifts of the Gospel.

Those five means are, first, orthodox, Biblical preaching; second, valid Trinitarian baptism; third, the rightly instituted Sacrament of the Altar; fourth, confession and absolution under the ordained Office of the Keys; AND ALSO FIFTH:

For Lutherans the key point is that the means of grace are external and objective. Their benefits only accrue when received with faith, but they exist and are real externally. They can be observed. We can see if the Sacrament of the Altar is rightly instituted.

For Lutherans, God does not come to you through vibes and feelings. He's not nebulously floating in the room. You don't just get tingly feelings and be like "oooOOoooo God is so present." We make fun of that. God is in specific observable means.

This is a powerful encouragement: you don't need to trust your feelings and vibes which are fleeting and faulty; trust the indisputable means. And also a powerful guard: do not be led astray by vibes and feelings (concupiscence). Hold fast to the objective truths of scripture.

I cherish these means and this view of how grace works because I believe it is the only sure guard against despair, what (Lutheran) Kierkegaard argues is the "sickness unto death" of which Christ said then-dead Lazarus did not suffer.

I am no longer willing to, as a matter of general principle, concede the God-is-in-the-room-making-vibes view of my Holiness tradition family and friends.

And yet the fruit of sound doctrine, sincere confession, committed repentance, and faithful congregations is indisputable.

There is no Lutheran church in Wilmore and yet in all likelihood I will riase my kids there because I know of no other place on the face of this planet where I can more assuredly guarantee them peers and friends of incontrovertibly living faith who will resist the world.

HOW CAN THIS BE?

The answer is that THERE MUST BE VISIBLE MEANS OF GRACE IN THE ROOM.

So let's go through our five.

1) Faithful preaching. Is that happening?

Yes, it is. The services are conducted in good order. There is testimony by some unordained people, but many validly ordained ministers of the Gospel have offered sound, Biblical sermons.

There can be no dispute that the Holy Spirit working through sound and Biblicaly based preaching is operating at the Asbury Revival. I disagree with some of the preaching. I think sometimes LCMS pastors preach things that are incorrect and contradict our confessions.

But while there is error in some of the preaching, there is so much truth. And a very large amount of the words coming from the stage are just people reading scripture verbatim at length, being heard by people of good faith. That is a means of grace.

That the person preaching or reading is not Lutheran and not free of error does not mean the Spirit is thereby prevented from operating through scripture and preaching as the scripture ordinarily operates through those means.

And this is a key point:

Holiness people believe they are experience an extraordinary outpouring of the spirit. I think Lutherans must disagree and assert it is a profoundly ordinary outpouring of the spirit, but simply scaled up in a *socially* unique way.

Okay, 2) Are there valid baptisms?

Yes. Lutherans accept the validity of non-Lutheran baptisms if they are Trinitarian, and Asbury has resolutely Trinitarian. I am pretty sure disagreement on that is grounds for dismissal of a professor.

So valid baptisms are an external and objective means of grace which is operating at the Asbury Revival, and thus we can conclude that the Holy Spirit is working in His ordinary capacity in that context.

3) Is communion being validly instituted and shared?

No, it is not. To be clear, I HAVE NO IDEA if they are doing communion at the Asbury Revival. But the Methodist view of communion is incorrect, they do not discern the body, and so they eat and drink to their detriment.

Also, some Lutherans in LCMS cchurches do not subscribe to the real presence and so eat and drink to their detriment. This is not unique to the Asbury Revival. That one or another means of grace is not operative does not prevent the others from operating.

4) Is there confession and absolution under the Office of the Keys?

There's absolutely confession. I do not know what the standing norm on absolution is. And also I have no idea on what the Lutheran view of other-denomination ordinations is. On this I have to confess ignorance.

5) Is there "mutual conversation and consolation of the brethren"?

YES A THOUSAND TIMES YES MY GOD YES

Most of the revival is people encouraging each other. Strangers sitting by strangers laying on hands and earnestly interceding in prayer for their needs. Confessing to each other. Encouraging each other. It is genuinely communal, not just leader-follower.

The great power of the revival is not in excellent sermons and preaching or powerful music it is IN THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES.

And this is where I think Lutherans can really speak to what is happening at the Asbury Revival in a powerful way.

Holiness people say the Spirit is working in the room in a unique way; that He is there with them working on all of them.

We agree. He's there. Working. But not through vibes in the room. IN THE PEOPLE.

It is not the Holy Spirit in the air giving vibes to each person causing a revival; it is the Holy Spirit in each person concretely, visibly, externally counseling, consoling, comforting, and exhorting each other. When believers do this together, it is a means of grace.

From a Lutheran view, the power of the revival is not that Hughes Auditorium has an above-average aerial concentration of Holy Spirit, but that the social circumstances of the revival have led to many believers ceasing their resistance to the Spirit's exhortation to mutual love.

The Spirit calls all of us at all times to pray without ceasing, to greet each other with psalms and prayers and spiritual songs, to lay hands on one another and pray earnestly not doubting that we will receive what we have prayed for.

How often do we do this? Rarely.

We do not do it (here I mean "we" to mean all Christians, not just Lutherans) because all of us are sinful doubters, because we resist the work of the Spirit in us, because we are justis but also peccator. We are not perfected and will not be this side of heaven.

But here, while I was very critical of the Holiness tradition re: communion, I want to sing their praises and call my Lutheran brothers and sisters to more earnestly embrace our confessions.

We do this poorly.

We do not touch each other when we are commanded to. Our Confessional churches remove the passing of the peace because it is inefficient and disorderly. Our coffee hours are not times of mutual intercession. The "prayers of the church" wrap up in a tidy little bow.

When we do the prayers of the church, we often do not pray like the psalmists crying out to God "Why oh Lord" but try to offer theodicy in our prayers, foregoing the serious work of intercession in favor of trying to justify a God who needs no justification from us.

When we pray, how many of us do so earnestly believing it will be so? And if it is not so, do we immediately just say "well, thy will be done" like good pious little non-emotion-havers, or do we actually be Christians and pray the Psalms and continue to knock on the door?

Christ said thy will be done AFTER HE HAD SWEAT BLOOD. We jump right to it because we modern anti-emotional skeptical-of-the-ecstatic Lutherans are worried that if we really let ourselves have emotions we'll transform into heretics by some dark magic.

I love when we chant the Psalms in church and sing the Nunc dimittis because it's some of the only times at church where we actually do seriously human prayers that aren't cleaned up in the name of orderliness.

Now look:

GOOD ORDER IS IMPORTANT.

My view is the Lutheran confessions are free of error. The problem isn't our beliefs. It's our culture. Our worries. Our fears.

Obviously, a Lutheran revival wouldn't look like Asbury's.

But ya know what? I've experienced a Lutheran revival. In the home of a rock-solid LCMS Confessional couple associated with a Classical school who like to host hymn sings.

It wasn't thousands of people. But it was what we are called to do. We greeted each other with spiritual songs. We prayed. Ruth and I were leaving to move to Hong Kong. People touched us. Lutherans touched other Lutherans! Miracle of miracles!

And ya know what? I believe that through these orderly, orthodox, biblically founded means of grace, God strengthened and encouraged out faith, as He promises to do.

I am praying that Lutherans would see the Asbury Revival not as a foe to critiqued, but as an encouragement to believe that the 5th means is a real means and to trust that, with good shepherds, God will use it as a means of grace.

Have a hymn sing. Stay extra long. Pray for each other. Confess your sins to one another. Have a Lutheran revival!

Anyways. It's time for our weekly Thursday Lutheran Revival at Ascenson, i.e. mid-day divine service. Time to go receive the life-giving work of the spirit through Word and Sacrament. Blessings to you all.