Thread by @strangerous10

#RoboDebtRC Paul Menzies-McVey, former Chief Counsel, tells the commission he doesn’t recall the significance of the media’s interest into the lawfulness of #RoboDebt 😳

Now being asked about the Ombudsman’s investigation which he was engaged in, …Nope…doesn’t recall a damn thing.

Greggery then asks about Senate Enquiries, Nup, no recollection.

He also covered Musolino for a period (I think while she was on leave), says he can’t recall much

Now being asked about the 2018 Clayton Utz legal advice,
Menzies-McVey concedes he was aware of this advice. Is asked if he was surprised when he saw it (believe it is in 2019)
“I was”
“I remember (being) given access to it” says he was surprised the advice was in draft form.

Waffling on, I’m just waiting for the crunch moment, (or at least my hope for it), where he might be asked what he did after conceding he was “surprised” to see it in draft form.
Just left it? Ok, here comes Greggery!
‘What questions did you ask?’
Menzies-McVey Fumbling big time

More or less, Menzies-McVey (MM) is saying he did ask some questions and the feeling he got was DSS were “aware” of the issue and had handled it. Hard to make sense of a lot of it, not answering the question directly now…
MM: “I can’t speak for DSS”
Here comes Holmes…

Commissioner now probes him if he asked “What on earth had been happening with it” (Clayton Utz advice)

MM: “uhhh, I didn’t ask”
Leading to a waffle, fumble, he is breaking apart already. Yikes!

He didn’t ask because he
“Thought” the issue had been overtaken, by the ombudsman issue which he just earlier he said he has no recollection of.
What the absolute ****

Commissioner GRILLING Menzies-McVey, OUCH, he tries to cut in
Holmes: “Just wait!”, she then continue to grill

Holmes asked if he asked ANYONE at all.

No, he didn’t he says,
but then waffles, oh shit, Commissioner is turning up the heat here.🔥🔥🔥

This is insane, he is barely answering the question, can’t give any explanation as to why he didn’t ask, didn’t raise alarm, nothing.

More grilling, its going on and on. She’s turned him over on his other side now, to make sure every bit of him is really, really Well Done.

In the end, after saying he was “surprised” it was left in draft form, concedes to the commissioner that he actually “didn’t see an issue”

So the former CHIEF COUNSEL of DSS, says he sees NO ISSUE with leaving Legal Advice in Draft Form

Now Greggery asking about what emails/records he has identified relating to the Clayton Utz advice. I’m not sure if MM is smirking intentionally or by nerves but its kinda annoying

MM says he believes he was notified about all the legal advices, 2014, 2017 & the External 2018 advice which he sees no issue being left in draft form, all at the same time. Is asked if he therefore became concerned the scheme was continuing. Waffles but says no had no concern🤨

Is asked what the commonwealth position was on the Mastadon case (which was part of the fed court case), he says as far as he recalls the debt was wiped off, and the commonwealth was therefore “Forced” (then retracts the word forced), to take certain actions as per the court

May I suggest they were forced, by the court, and he said it, then took it away to not make it appear as tho they only acted because the court required them to, which surely was the case. Greggery making his head spoon now. I need a coffee break, back soon, ☕️

Head SPIN 🤣

Back, OH MY GOODNESS, Greggery presses MM on why he didn’t at least ask Anne Pulford, given her 2014 and 2017 advice had differences. He can’t answer, waffles, shit this is bad,

Commissioner crucifying him. Accuses him of having
“Magical Thinking”

Just prior to Holmes’ grilling, Greggery accused MM of not answering the question repeatedly,
And now he’s back at him, asking him to confirm what he did when he saw all the legal advice in 2019,
MM says he has “no recollection”, as his main evidence, and that he didn’t ask Qs

MM also leaning on the Solicitor General’s advice at the time which verified, more or less, that the scheme could keep running,

Greggery now asking how he didn’t consider the impact on recipients. I didn’t capture the answer, it was too waffly for me.

Greggery suggests he was “content” for debts to continue being raised in the same fashion, using income averaging.

MM stuttering, fumbling, barely answering, but ends with that he was under the impression that “everything that could be done…was being done”

Greggery latches on

Greggery says if he thought everything that could be done, was being done, how did he dismiss AGS advice and the Clayton Utz (2018) advice

MM says he didn’t realise/think the 2018 advice dealt with the specific legal aspect of Robodebt that made it unlawful (along those lines)

Greggery asks MM if he “kept a diary” during his “time in DSS”

MM says only for attendance, did not keep any records of meetings. Well aren’t we all shocked.😒
I remind everyone, CHIEF COUNSEL.
CHIEF.

CHIEF!!!!!!!

MM says he destroyed everything (previously) he did have anyway because it wasn’t his practise to keep “any diary of…in the form of a diary…or detail…of meetings”

What the **** is this former CHIEF talking about.

He even had the gall to smirk, laugh it off. This is disturbing.

Greggery not smiling back. Pressing on with more hard hitting questions, leading to more MM squirming, and insisting he can’t recall much.

Now accused of not answering the question, again, what a horrible witness

MM is adamant that he “didn’t think it was important” that the 2018 Clayton Utz advice was left in draft form.

Greggery not letting up, pressing him on why no step was taken to finalise the advice, again
MM: “I assumed that a decision was made” to leave it in draft form.

Greggery asked why he assumed as such? What possibilities crossed his mind?

Endless waffling, implying in his answer if he was in the role “at the time” he would have acted. Almost like it was too late by the time he got there (so he didn’t bother asking, let scheme running on)

MM throws Campbell & Williamson under the bus, saying they would have been “aware” of the Clayton Utz advice.
Greggery now suggests he should’ve been aware of an obligation to provide this 2018 advice to Services Australia.
MM denies knowing this is the case.

This is at least the 2nd time Nathan Williamson has been thrown under the bus by the way, specifically in regards to this 2018 advice, at the RRC. Ouch.

Every time Holmes speaks, you sense a big shudder streak through MM’s body, as he slowly turns to face her.

As MM keeps leaning on the Solicitor General’s advice,
Holmes: “Nevermind the Solicitor General, I’m interested in your inquisition”
“You are a lawyer?”
MM: “I am”

Keeps going back to the Solicitor General, over and over,

Holmes keeps demanding he stop referring to the SG
“Nevermind the Solicitor General!?”

MM saying he felt the scheme was still lawful, given the SG’s advice, but can’t explain how he made that decision on his own accord

Concedes whilst he was aware of the 2018 legal advice indicating the scheme was illegal, and that whilst he was aware it was left in draft form, he no records.

Greggery suggests he had advice the scheme was unlawful and “Did Nothing” about it.

MM says he felt it was being addressed, the question of lawfulness, so that he didn’t feel a need to act.
Greggery has him concede he “didn’t take that step” to pass the 2018 legal advice to Services Australia. Seems it might have been a requirement.

“I dont think I contemplated sending it to them, perhaps I should have”

Greggery suggests it would have been in line with legal practise expectations.

Adjournment till 12:05pm in Brisbane.

Paul Menzies-McVey, former Chief Counsel of DSS, says it is NOT HIS PRACTISE TO KEEP RECORDS OF MEETINGS. SO HE DESTROYED THEM. 🤬