Thread by @tribunaltweets

We are waiting for a decision from the Judge on access to report a freedom of expression and belief case, a criminal conviction appeal, R v David McConnell at Leeds Crown Court today and tomorrow.

#OpenJustice
leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-new…

David McConnell, a street preacher convicted of harrassment last year, is appealing against his conviction. He was also reported to Prevent the counter-terrorism body.

We will report if we are granted access.

christianconcern.com/cccases/dave-m…

. @CPSUK's barrister last year said “People have the right to hold opinions and express their views. But when words cross the line between a legitimate expression of religious views, and become distressing & threatening, the CPS will prosecute offenders if our legal test is met."

“[B]y repeatedly referring to the female victim as ‘this gentleman’ & ‘ a man in woman’s clothing’, using a microphone in a public place, [his] comments crossed the line b/w a legitimate expression of his religious views, to become a distressing and threatening personal attack.”

The Recorder has given permission.

Abbrevs
A - Appellant, Dave McConnell
Crown - Crown (this is a criminal case)
J - Judge
B1 - Barrister for Apellant (will use initials when names known.
B2 - Barrister for Crown

PS - Probation Service
CPS - Crown Prosecution Service
PBA - Public Order Act
ERPS -Elland Road Police Station
ECHR - European Convention Human Rights
TW - Transwoman
DQ - Drag Queen
P- Prevent

David McConnell's lawyers are seeking to overturn his previous conviction in 2022 by arguing that the #police response was unlawful, disproportionate and interfered with his ECHR Article 9 and 10 rights.

#OpenJustice
christianconcern.com/news/street-pr…

The case starts at 11.30am.

We've joined the court. The video of DM preaching is playing. It catches the responses of passersby - challenging for aclling TW a man dressed in women's clothing.

B2 - the prosecution case is deliberately misgendering is a section (403?) offence.
J- says 4 questions
1) were the words insulting?
2) Did it cause distress?
3) Can Crown satisfy he had intention?
4) is prosecution compatible with Arts 9 & 10?

Let us suppose we were satisfed insulting and distress, but weren't satisfied DM's intent then human rights question won't be relevant.

Witness Farrah Munir (FM) sworn in.

B1: 8 June 2021 0 - what were you doing?
FM - shopping with friend
J - weekday?
FM - walking past debehams and noticed him on a speaker box thing. V visible.

Video clip of DM - v9 & 10 - righteous shall not inherit kingdom of good ...no sodomaites ..thieves... [too fat]

Q from TW - does God hate LGBT?
Repsonse from DM - this man ..

FM - that was me. We were just walking past.

J - so you stopped to listen for a minute.

missed

FM- I've seen this gentleman a couple fo times on previous occassions.

Intrigiued to hear what he had to say as was preaching the Bible.

I asked that q because of what he saysing (missed) homosexuals

B1 - when he asked this gentleman who did you think he was talking about?

FM - as first thought it was my friend. then he said that is a man not a woman.

FM - felt emotionally distressed as has never hapeppned to me before.

FM - noone has ever stated that to me before.

Video.
B1 - what did DM do with water bottle.
How many people around you?

FM - crowd gathered.

FM - he just stated what he said

B1 - anything with his body, hands gestures?

FM Can't remember.

Video

Video is street preaching and interaction with crowd. Too fast to report all.
"I'm fully aware that this is a man"
What makes you think this is a man?
" I can tell by looking at him it's a man in women's clothes"

FM - just wtaching - it does upset me.

B1 after yr initial q and back and forth, what else did you say (clarifies).

FM - I just said I was a woman not a man.

B1 - anything else?

FM - can't remember.

B1 - you were on the phone

FM - on phone to police

B1 - can't see you in crowd

FM - I hid behind the corwd. Extermely insulted.

B1 - did you say anything else into the microphone?

FM - No.

J given copy of FM's witness statement.

B2 - a few questions.

FM - statement dated 8 June 2021

B2 - statement was made 31 Oct 201

J - 4 months later.

B2 - maybe memory faded over time

FM - Correct. remember most of the things not all. Didn't look at no video.

B2 - I am going to suggest that my client never called you a sinner. That is an error.

FM yes.

missed - re did you tell him your pronouns

FM - I am not require to [tell people my pronouns]

Witness withdraws.
J - I am not havingthis hearing turned into a three ring circus. This woman is a transgender woman. She says she is insulted by a man. That's the end of it. Not exploring issues of transgender rights

J I am not prepared to go down that rabbit hole

I am happy to accept yr client has views on gender issues, and is entitled to hold them and express in public. what free speech is about.

We are dealing with public order offence.

J Crown say he is using insulting words

B2 - reason why insulting becaus FM says a woman, my clients says a woman, so essential my client can pout his case properly. [missed]

J - made myself clear, Bring back witness.

B2 - you ID yrself as a trangender woman. Have you seen entire video - 1 hour 45 minutes - [DM's bodycam]?

FM - no.
new video clip played.

B2 - my client simply made a comment on what he sawe. Suggestion he outed you - presupposition of other knowledge?

FM - How can she answer what DM thought?

FM - Incorrect.

B2 - You also say god hates black people.

B2 He never said black people don't exist - that's a lie.

You are also alleging he said Allah doesn;t exist.

He never siad that Allah does exist.

FM -I did not lie.

B2 - you said you just wanted him to stop.

FM - yes

B2 - you continued to stay there for an hour or two.

FM - yes

B2 - you continued to listen to his message - chanted at various points

FM - for my own rights

B2 you heckled him - explains heckling

FM - because what he saying to me was wrong.

B2 - You enjoyed yourself. Street theatre you decided to engage in for an hour.

2 video clips

B2 - you can see yourself again - and a group of friends?

FM - only one friend - rest public.

B2 - arm in air and you're shouting "hate speech"

video

B2 - a minute later - shouting hate speech and cheering

FM - not cheering (missed)

video - policeman arrives and tells D to get down.

B2 - you are still there?

FM - yes reason why there the whole time, yr honour.

video
[missed]
FM - not clapping because someone stole his speaker. I wasn't aware then. Different reason why clapping.

video

B2 - somebody had taken away speaker run down road.

FM - not clapping for that reason.

B2 - you were looking in direction of man running away

FM - no

missed

video D says this is love speech. Crowd "hate speech"

B2 - you start chanting "hate speech again"

B1 - re-examination.

B2 - I didn't say he didn't mention Allah. I said he was lying as my client did not say Allah doesn't exist.

B1 - implies that. God of Islam .... sinning against God.

[can't hear the Judge]

J - just a moment. Just tell us answer - what caused you to stay there after all this incident. My collegaiue ants to know. You asked a q and you got distressed. You stayed for significant time.

FM - Due to police. I was on phone to police. They took a while. Waiting for police.

B1 - why were you chanting "hate speech"?

FM- Not free speech. I'm all for free speech (missed religion) - what he was saying wasn;t correct. That's why.

Witness discharged.

Jordan Dennies(?) (JD) sworn in.

[We only have sound, no images of court and no list of names of witnesses etc. Questioning is fast.]

B1 - what were you doing? Shopping with Farrah.

JD - we were walking by to meet our friends. We heard him as we walked past Debenhams.

JD - not heard him before.

JD - he was saying being gay was an abomination. (missed).

JD - Farrah asked a q, He said F wasn't a woman she was a man and a gentleman.

B1 - raised above the crowd - how did you know he was talking about Miss Munir?

JD - because it came after FM asked the q,

B1 - what was he doing with body language? Anything to single Miss M out?

B2 leading question.

JD - shocked and distressed, Didn't expect any of my friends in the LGBTQIA+ community to be attacked
She was shocked and upset.

JD - over 50 (gathered) - started to get out of control.

JD - crowd responded when D said being gay was an abomination.

JD - i stayed for 45 mins to an hiour. We wanted to support our fellow friends, to give a statement and make sure the correct procedure was followed.

JD I was recording DM to protect ourselves and the public and keep video for evidence.

B1 - mood of the crowd

JD - very angry. Distressed and out of control.

B2 - you said attacked. what did you mean?

JD - not just physical.

B2 - what did you mean by attacked?

JD - missed. being attacked you shoudl not have words thrown at you in a public space.

B2 - preferred pronousn?

JD - yes - if a mistake , we';d accept that

JD - a transgender woman - she shd have been respected.

B2 - does that mean he has to change his language?
missed

B2 - recording. this was street theatre? missed - sometimes people engage in public performance - and this is what was happening.

JD - I don't agree.

missed

B2 - you were having a good time, you were (singing)?

JD - no

JD's video - cheering and whooping

B2 - yr video uploaded to Facebook. You cheering?

JD - me and everyone else.

B2 - his speaker had been taken away.

video
JD - yes me chanting - around 6 of us.

video
B2 - crowd chanting "who are ya" - including you?

JD - yes.

video
B2 - was that you singing? remember the song?

JD - it was Raining men. No I wasn't [having a good time}. singing a song that is very close to our hearts in the LGBT community.

B2 - you suggested someone shd steal the mike

JD - I was stating comments from the FB live.

videe

B2 - you say "Go grab the mike and I'll fucking push him off there and I'll connect to the speaker and play a gay song."

JD - i was speaking comments off the (FB) live.

B2 - DM had been arrested. You hanging around - at least 5 minute listening to the 2nd preacher.

You were hoping all teh street preachers would be arrested that day.

JD - no we were hoping they'd have some respect and move along.

video

B2 - "I want him going. he needs to go, I want him gone"

JD - FB live comments. We don't want to hear any hate speech. I'm not saying he should stop. More respect.

missed

JD - Not in public. You can have your opinion but in public not acceptable.

Mr Denny discharged.

Next witness PC Burns (B) sworn in.

B - we'd heard over radio of a disturbance - with POCSOs in attendance.

B- saw a lot of people. Around 100. Defendant preaching. Angry mob to right. 3 or 4 people stood with D.

B - 2 PCSO trying to keep some sort of peace. talking to people who were tunring up. [something about an allegation a cross being taken]

doing as good a jpb as the could.

there was people shouting towards Mr McC, being held back by friends . To stop them getting closer.

B - Nobody in striking distance.
I saw council street worker and then spoke to man holding the cross. He said it had been pulled away from him. then I spoke to some in crowd to calm them down.

B - Complaints abt the general preaching then a specific complaint fo a lady being abused because of her gender.

B - God not liking homosexual and transsexual people, and the victim making complaints abt what said directly to her.

B - complaint made against Mr McC - so in my kind suspect of an offence. Allegation made against him. I'd like him to stop preaching while I dealt with that.

B- 8-10 minutes conversation. Allegation of the lady. No arguments re him preaching.

B - suggested he left the area. It took quite a long time. he didn't move on.
missed

B1 - reticent to move on.

B- Yes

missed

B - crowd would have seen no action , nothing ebing done and may have taken action into their own hands. We knew they tried to grab the cross.

Could happen again. Mr Mcconnel would be injured

B - arrested D publicv order offence and defence of hinself.
Final trigger was D referred to the victim as a man in a dress. I stopped him and told him he'd been told victyinm was a female. He started saying she, then relaised and

B1 - Your proposition - move on and won't be arrested. Why did you change yr mind and arrest him?

B - he wanted to argue his rights of free speech. Regardless of what he'd have preached, I think crowd wouldn't allow it.

J - D the person most at phstyical risk?

J - Crucial feature of this case is the intention of the appellant.

We all know the right to free speech and public disorder and proper regard to Art 9 & 10. Don't need to told that. The correct interpretation of the Bible is irrelevant.

J - People have been preaching ons treets in time immemorial. We need no assistance in those matters. We have to be satisfied he was intending to cause her alarm harrassment and distress. If simply saying what he genuiunely believed the Bible said, that might not meet the bar.

J - It might be in yr client's inetrest to reflect on this over the break.

He's perfectly entitled to say what he believdes. If he uses insulting words that cause distress, then he commits a public order offense (subject to the articles (9 & 10).

J - If no intention to distress, then he is entitled to be found not guilty.

B1 - on facts, not case law or expert evidence.

Court returns at 1.05pm for cross exmaination of PC Burns.

This appeal against a criminal conviction is being heard by 3 judges in Leeds Crown court.

We cannot see the court but can see the videos. The court proceedings and videos are fast - so we do our best to capture accurately testimony, and the judge's comments and questions.

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