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[Same Sex Marriage Hearing] DAY 8
#SupremeCourtofIndia to resume hearing a batch of 20 petitions seeking to legalise same sex marriage
5-judge Constitution bench to begin hearing today post 10:45 am
Track this thread for live updates👇 #samesexmarriage #LGBTQI #gayrights
#SupremeCourtofIndia to resume hearing a batch of 20 petitions seeking to legalise same sex marriage
5-judge Constitution bench to begin hearing today post 10:45 am
Track this thread for live updates👇 #samesexmarriage #LGBTQI #gayrights
DAY 1: Notions of man, woman, genitals do not define gender in absolute sense, Supreme Court says
rb.gy/jdv58
DAY 2: Argument that children of same-sex married couple will be impacted incorrect; gay, lesbian persons can already adopt individually: Supreme Court… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
rb.gy/jdv58
DAY 2: Argument that children of same-sex married couple will be impacted incorrect; gay, lesbian persons can already adopt individually: Supreme Court… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Dwivedi: please see the definition of spouse as under section 5 of the special marriage act. #Supremecourtofindia #samesexmarriage #LGBTQI #gayrights
Dwivedi: i am not saying things are to be frozen in time but we have to see the fundamental impact of this #Supremecourtofindia #samesexmarriage #LGBTQI #gayrights
CJI: Article 50 was formulated in a different context.. it deals with Separation of judiciary from executive... it is a well settled area.. and sometimes it overlaps in district judiciary level etc. #Supremecourtofindia #samesexmarriage #LGBTQI #gayrights
Dwivedi: pleas dealing with UCC, Common adoption code etc this court has said this is an area of the legislature.. there are three judgments where in field of social reforms the court said it was for the legislature. even for intervention in dowry menace the court said… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Dwivedi: the question really is..is there a fundamental right to samensex marriage flowing from Articles 14, 19 and 21?
CJI: Does anyone have a fundamental right to marry? forget to same sex... or there is no fundamental right to marry at all.
Dwivedi: so far as heterosexual… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
CJI: Does anyone have a fundamental right to marry? forget to same sex... or there is no fundamental right to marry at all.
Dwivedi: so far as heterosexual… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Justice Bhat: constitution only recognises.. nothing is granted.. we are free people and we have taken it upon ourselves.. so right to marry is inherent and you can located it in article 19 or 21
Dwivedi: does not matter where it is located.. right to marry in the sense.… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Dwivedi: does not matter where it is located.. right to marry in the sense.… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
CJI: To say right to marry is not a constitutional right would be far fetched.. look at the core elements of marriage.. right to cohabit for two individuals... marriage takes on board existence of family unit something which owes its existence constitutional values, procreation… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Justice Bhat: what is the marriage to each other.. one is society.. each spouse they decide what it means.. contents is determined by the spouses voluntarily.. whether to have and raise children... that is an autonomous decision... marriage may not have any or varying degree of… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Sr Adv Dwivedi: if marriage is treated as a fluid concept,, then no law is needed and then brothers and sisters would also want to marry
Justice Bhat: apart from blood.. there is also relations bar like sister in law etc.. there is orderliness etc.. there is legitimate state… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Justice Bhat: apart from blood.. there is also relations bar like sister in law etc.. there is orderliness etc.. there is legitimate state… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Dwivedi: we cannot have IVF and adoptions... we were 44 crores and now above 1 billion.. this just did not happen because some did not want to procreate... society cannot survive and what is national integrity if society grows old and there is no children.. bearing and rearing… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
CJI: apart from the element of heterosexuality.. there will be other elements of the union which may have to be accepted by the state.. We are constitutional recognition of a relation which is short of marriage.. civic rights flowing.. then legislative recognition for the same..… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Justice Narasimha: when courts recognise and leave it.. then it is upto the legislature to take it ahead
CJI: Did we not do with privacy.. we recognised right to privacy.. but did not touch the law part and we left data privacy bill etc to the parliament..
#samesexmarriage
CJI: Did we not do with privacy.. we recognised right to privacy.. but did not touch the law part and we left data privacy bill etc to the parliament..
#samesexmarriage
CJI: Live Streaming of court proceedings have taken the hearings to the hearts and homes of people
Dwivedi: but since we speak in english and often villages etc do not understand it
CJI: Supreme court is not lost to it.. and we are working on making the transcript available in… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Dwivedi: but since we speak in english and often villages etc do not understand it
CJI: Supreme court is not lost to it.. and we are working on making the transcript available in… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Sr Adv Sibal for Jamaat Ulema I Hind: it was said at the outset that we dont expect parliament pass this law and that is why this court should do it. I say it is a very dangerous root to take. Any law which is based on such tectonic shift requires public discourse and it needs… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Justice Narasimha: parliament can overrule a declaration also ..
Sibal: today this court is deciding sexual unions and recognition of the state to sexual unions.. so this issue was never decided by this court.. so reference to NALSA, Privacy etc cannot be accepted in the face… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Sibal: today this court is deciding sexual unions and recognition of the state to sexual unions.. so this issue was never decided by this court.. so reference to NALSA, Privacy etc cannot be accepted in the face… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Sibal: question now is this sexual union akin to a marriage... if it is akin to marriage is it founded on any provisions of the constitution... and for it to result in certain rights.. it can only be done by recognition by the state through legislation.. there cannot be a… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
CJI: we would like some assistance at the intellectual level.. we have gone through judgments.. so we have Sr Adv Arvind Datar, ASG Aishwarya Bhati, J Sai Deepak, Manisha Lavkumar Shah is left to address. So hopefully this side (respondents) conclude by tomorrow 1 pm.
Bench… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Bench… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Hearing resumes.
CJI: Sorry brother Kaul, counsel. We got delayed.
Sibal: Acceptance is also in three levels. One of the two individuals themselves, then by family ...
CJI: Then society.
Sibal: Now who is to investigate and look at that. That is the issue. There we need… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
CJI: Sorry brother Kaul, counsel. We got delayed.
Sibal: Acceptance is also in three levels. One of the two individuals themselves, then by family ...
CJI: Then society.
Sibal: Now who is to investigate and look at that. That is the issue. There we need… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Sibal: Heterosexual marriage has stood the test of time because it has been accepted by all three levels. Society recognises that union. You do not need a Constitution for it frankly my lords.
#SupremeCourt
#SupremeCourt
Sibal: If you want to equate it ... You need all the elements which go into heterosexual union being recognised.
#SupremeCourt
#SupremeCourt
Sibal: If you look at the institution as an organic institution, of customs. You realise that its roots are with societal acceptance and morality. Both are changing. Some rights the state recognises.
Justice Bhat: Some the States impose.
Sibal: Choice by itself a slippery… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Justice Bhat: Some the States impose.
Sibal: Choice by itself a slippery… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Sibal: If parliament were to pass a law recognising same sex unions? Saying you are treating unequals equally. Will you strike it down? No you will not. 14 requires ...
You cannot equate a prectice that has sanction of hundreds of thousands of years with a union ... So all this… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
You cannot equate a prectice that has sanction of hundreds of thousands of years with a union ... So all this… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Sibal: In US, gay people were not allowed in military, govt jobs. This is not happening here. We are far more liberal in that sense. US court was dealing with a far more illiberal environment. People have even adopted.
Justice Kaul: Those adoptions are going by the declaration that one of them is ...
CJI: Circular says though that as single parent by virtue of cohabiting with a same sex partner you cannot ...
Sibal: These exchanges have to come incrementally.
CJI: You are entitled to some… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
CJI: Circular says though that as single parent by virtue of cohabiting with a same sex partner you cannot ...
Sibal: These exchanges have to come incrementally.
CJI: You are entitled to some… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Sibal: Allow it to organically ...
Justice Kaul: Are you suggesting that if this declaration were to be given coupled with the administrative aspects dealt with by the committee, is the next step to call upon Parliament to debate the issue?
Sibal: No that cannot be the third… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Justice Kaul: Are you suggesting that if this declaration were to be given coupled with the administrative aspects dealt with by the committee, is the next step to call upon Parliament to debate the issue?
Sibal: No that cannot be the third… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Sibal: Nobody can dispute that they have a separate sexual identity. But to what level there is acceptance is for another forum, and to what extent rights have to be crystalised.
Vishaka and others are procedural not legal, substantive guidelines.
Vishaka and others are procedural not legal, substantive guidelines.
Sibal: I am strongly opposed to the reliance on foreign judgments. They provide necessary insight into need for public engagement and discourse. But are in different contexts.
Sibal: Protections available to minorities in a secular democracy should be available to sexual minorities.
Justice Bhat: I would put it wider to say democracy... Discreet minority comes in.
Sibal: Yes I agree. Broadly.
Justice Bhat: I would put it wider to say democracy... Discreet minority comes in.
Sibal: Yes I agree. Broadly.
Sibal: In developed countries, there has been an atomisation of family. Divorces have taken place. Therefore there was a need to regularise.
Justice Bhat: Broadest argument is there is no fundamental right to claim any legislation. Or a legislative decree.
Sibal: Precisely why we have the Constitution.
#SupremeCourt #SupremeCourtofIndia
Sibal: Precisely why we have the Constitution.
#SupremeCourt #SupremeCourtofIndia
CJI: Your submission has been go ahead and get married but you cannot insist on the legislature passing a law.
Justice Bhat: You are building on what the solicitor said.
Sibal: yes. All science ...
Justice Kohli: New territories being
Justice Narasimha: Bernard Shaw said… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Justice Bhat: You are building on what the solicitor said.
Sibal: yes. All science ...
Justice Kohli: New territories being
Justice Narasimha: Bernard Shaw said… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
CJI: Letting out a bit of a secret. When you write you are also trying to push the paper. In everything you are trying to push the limits do to speak.
Justice Kohli: That is what legal Argument would also be, to take it to the next level.
Justice Kohli: That is what legal Argument would also be, to take it to the next level.
Justice Bhat: Even those cases ( inter racial, inter caste marriage cases cited by Petitioners) we're fiercely contested.
Sibal: in a way this moment should be celebrated that this situation is being discussed and this celebration must not result in overreach and must set systems in place for state to move forward and without it in place these people will be discriminated against. what they have… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Sr Adv Arvind Datar: On the constitutional validity of SMA: If a law has been made to recognise inter faith or inter caste marriage...we must test the act with the stated objective by which the parliament enacted it.
CJI: even if they are right in asserting that same sex… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
CJI: even if they are right in asserting that same sex… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Datar: This is a polycentric dispute and one cannot imagine what kind of collateral damage will be caused on other statutes if this is recognised #SupremeCourt
Datar: once you recognise the rights the other statutes have to follow it and make the necessary changes then... decriminalisation of same sex relation in Navtej was historic and a biblical based provision was done away with but making the declaration is constitutional border of… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
Datar: If we get into Hindu marriage act etc.. it will be nothing but judicial retrofitting...
CJI: Tomorrow morning we will start with ASG Bhati, J Sai Deepak and Manisha Lavkumar Shah. Intervenor give one page notes to Adv Kanu Agrawal. If Mr Maninder Singh does not have… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
CJI: Tomorrow morning we will start with ASG Bhati, J Sai Deepak and Manisha Lavkumar Shah. Intervenor give one page notes to Adv Kanu Agrawal. If Mr Maninder Singh does not have… twitter.com/i/web/status/1…
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