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We will be returning shortly to the second morning session of the employment tribunal of Prof J Phoenix v The Open University.
The earlier session is here: threadreaderapp.com/thread/1709853…
The earlier session is here: threadreaderapp.com/thread/1709853…
joined late...
JP: No I was crying..
JM There was no formal complaint put in by yourself?
JP No. I am used to lots of inapprop comments in my career. Part I was concerned about how to come back from a grievance, but also, and this was pathetic, is cos it was name calling
JP: No I was crying..
JM There was no formal complaint put in by yourself?
JP No. I am used to lots of inapprop comments in my career. Part I was concerned about how to come back from a grievance, but also, and this was pathetic, is cos it was name calling
J Thanks her more detailed explanation
JM LW admonished you for swearing in a dept meeting, which you say humiliated you. Your evidence isn't correct is it?
JP I disagree
JM DD also disagrees with you here. Now looking at [getting paper copy of bundle which JP is unable to handle
JM LW admonished you for swearing in a dept meeting, which you say humiliated you. Your evidence isn't correct is it?
JP I disagree
JM DD also disagrees with you here. Now looking at [getting paper copy of bundle which JP is unable to handle
JM 11 Oct 2018 meeting at which you're present
JP Yes
JM Then an entry about language used outside of SPC meetings, and need to be mindful of how we come across and language used
JP Yes
JM DD brought this up and wasnt about JP but about staff members
JP Yes
JM Then an entry about language used outside of SPC meetings, and need to be mindful of how we come across and language used
JP Yes
JM DD brought this up and wasnt about JP but about staff members
JP I admit I sometimes have a potty mouth, as you can see from the Whatsapp
JM Here is a mixture of email convos with LW re raising swearing. I dont think the minutes are accurate, there had been a complaint and when approp to swear in front of staff
JM Here is a mixture of email convos with LW re raising swearing. I dont think the minutes are accurate, there had been a complaint and when approp to swear in front of staff
JP I recall the mtg. This was raised with e'one and I was swearing as LW entered the room. we disagree on this
JM You only mention this v v briefly in yr grievance
JP Yes
JM You werent upset were you?
JP Yes, I was upset
JM Discussing the meeting
JM You only mention this v v briefly in yr grievance
JP Yes
JM You werent upset were you?
JP Yes, I was upset
JM Discussing the meeting
JM Nothing about humilation etc?
JP I was complaining about being admonished but didnt say how I felt, I agree
JM You say you explained in this meeting about Newfoundland and essex & you say you were met by a cavernous silence. DD disagrees and that ppl werent unsupportive.
JP I was complaining about being admonished but didnt say how I felt, I agree
JM You say you explained in this meeting about Newfoundland and essex & you say you were met by a cavernous silence. DD disagrees and that ppl werent unsupportive.
JM Nor were you congratulated about yr grant and DD was congratulated despite their grant eventually being unsuccessful
JP Yes
JM This is minutes of 12 Dec 2019, you were present, some highlighted passages, discussing a conference in Canada...
JP Yes
JM This is minutes of 12 Dec 2019, you were present, some highlighted passages, discussing a conference in Canada...
JM cont re health of prisoners, cancellation at Essex, [still reading] Is that representative of what u said?
JP No. This is a mess. I didnt say that about the Canadian grant. The minute taker made a mess of what I said, it's mixed up.
JP No. This is a mess. I didnt say that about the Canadian grant. The minute taker made a mess of what I said, it's mixed up.
JP I said I was cancelled, not that I'd had a talk cancelled. I did say that about LSE. The minutes, like most from our meetings, are very garbled. They're not accurate.
JM Did u say anything about this? You and DD disgree?
JP Yes
JM Did u say anything about this? You and DD disgree?
JP Yes
JM: Instructed not to speak about Essex and yr research by DD?
JP Yes
JM This isnt accurate is it?
JP It is
JM U disagreed about what shld be discussed at mtgs. They shouldnt be for discussions and was admin and shld be said in the thinking about meetings?
JP Yes
JM This isnt accurate is it?
JP It is
JM U disagreed about what shld be discussed at mtgs. They shouldnt be for discussions and was admin and shld be said in the thinking about meetings?
JM Repeated re shouldnt have academic debates in these meetings
JP This wld be the 1st time I'd heard that in a dept meeting involving research. I wasnt having a discursive debate
JM You thought u had a positive rship with DD?
JM Yes until the SAR. I couldnt have a convo of the
JP This wld be the 1st time I'd heard that in a dept meeting involving research. I wasnt having a discursive debate
JM You thought u had a positive rship with DD?
JM Yes until the SAR. I couldnt have a convo of the
JM type u suggest to discuss what to discuss as you say
JP I hadnt had a debate or tried to engage it one
JM U didnt complain at the time
JP I had been cancelled, one of the most extreme events, and had been phoned the day before about rescinding the talk.
JP I hadnt had a debate or tried to engage it one
JM U didnt complain at the time
JP I had been cancelled, one of the most extreme events, and had been phoned the day before about rescinding the talk.
JP I'd been blacklisted. I cried the whole way home after that meeting as I knew my relationship in the dept was essentially over. Then a line manager tells me it's too challenging to talk about this in the dept
JM But it wasnt pretty much over as u stayed a while longer
JM But it wasnt pretty much over as u stayed a while longer
JP I felt silenced and pushed out. In terms of collegiate atmosphere this was gone.
JM You have overstated this havent you?
JP No this was the worst week of my life
JM You didnt mention this on the Whatsapp though?
[searching for docs]
JM Hope yr not getting too much blow back
JM You have overstated this havent you?
JP No this was the worst week of my life
JM You didnt mention this on the Whatsapp though?
[searching for docs]
JM Hope yr not getting too much blow back
and you dont mention what happened?
JP No, but this was a month later
J let JP finish
JP Asking about later blow back not the horrendous experiences I'd gone through
JM Theres nothing in the WharsApp re the meetind tho
JP But this is fundamental stuff for an academic.
JP No, but this was a month later
J let JP finish
JP Asking about later blow back not the horrendous experiences I'd gone through
JM Theres nothing in the WharsApp re the meetind tho
JP But this is fundamental stuff for an academic.
JP Yes, no msgs for 5 days after Essex....
JM Discussing msgs incl
JP This is not where I disclose my emotions
The notion this wldnt be one of the worst days in my life..I dont know how to respond to you. You're fundamentally incorrect.
JM Discussing msgs incl
JP This is not where I disclose my emotions
The notion this wldnt be one of the worst days in my life..I dont know how to respond to you. You're fundamentally incorrect.
JM Now onto June 2021, and DD saying she's like ?? an academic re racism [Charles Marie?] Do u accept her apology?
JP I accept she said that
JM Discussing JPs that weren't accepted. A convo re SW. Do you accept?
JP I dont know
JM I want to thank you re research and recognise
JP I accept she said that
JM Discussing JPs that weren't accepted. A convo re SW. Do you accept?
JP I dont know
JM I want to thank you re research and recognise
JM support received from her? Do you accept this?
JP Yes, you can accept things and still know there's issues.
JM Theres no ref to the Charles Murray comment?
JP No, but lots to being silenced. You werent offended were you?
JP Laughs.. apologies it's a nervous laugh
JP Yes, you can accept things and still know there's issues.
JM Theres no ref to the Charles Murray comment?
JP No, but lots to being silenced. You werent offended were you?
JP Laughs.. apologies it's a nervous laugh
JP He is one of the most controversial academics ever. It's unbelievable and the 2nd time I'd been referred to as a racist.
JP Had I received something like that as a line manager I would have explored this and asked if HR was needed as the comments are grave
JP Had I received something like that as a line manager I would have explored this and asked if HR was needed as the comments are grave
JM This was the day after Forstster and you were going to accelerate the GCRG werent you?
JP Yes as my beliefs were now protected
JM You didnt mention the launch to DD?
JP No, as I knew what was happening in other places at it wld jeopardise the launch
JP Yes as my beliefs were now protected
JM You didnt mention the launch to DD?
JP No, as I knew what was happening in other places at it wld jeopardise the launch
JM It was sent to an HR adviser [unclear what]
JP Yes
JM You say you're not sure about working at the OU once DD had gone - coping with the anxiety of being in SPC
JP Yes, I had complaints and every time I raised SW or Essex I had complaints and censure. Where cld I be as
JP Yes
JM You say you're not sure about working at the OU once DD had gone - coping with the anxiety of being in SPC
JP Yes, I had complaints and every time I raised SW or Essex I had complaints and censure. Where cld I be as
being in that dept was exceedingly difficult.
JM Moving to the Guardian letter...changed direction
JM You are setting out groundwork argument in these emails ahead of the GCRG launch?
JP No, this was because of Forstater being out. I dont accept yr characterisation of this at all
JM Moving to the Guardian letter...changed direction
JM You are setting out groundwork argument in these emails ahead of the GCRG launch?
JP No, this was because of Forstater being out. I dont accept yr characterisation of this at all
[short break for JP to walk about]
JM Re setting up the GC group...[blinds being drawn].. you say JP and Rosa Friedman and approach Sara Earle in March 21. You'd planned to launch in Autumn 21?
JP Yes
JM But u brought 4wd because of Reindorf report and Forstater
JP Yes
JM Re setting up the GC group...[blinds being drawn].. you say JP and Rosa Friedman and approach Sara Earle in March 21. You'd planned to launch in Autumn 21?
JP Yes
JM But u brought 4wd because of Reindorf report and Forstater
JP Yes
JM In Feb 21 LW? is worried about pronouns and a newsletter involving LGBT history. Do you agree?
JP I think so. They can f off about the pronoun drive - yes, I have ideas about this
JM It might be fun to say ??
JP Thats bitter irony
JP I think so. They can f off about the pronoun drive - yes, I have ideas about this
JM It might be fun to say ??
JP Thats bitter irony
JM Discussing setting up the group, incl feminist scholars
JP I disagree. She did write a blog and being shut down and excluded, sorry they, and referenced a comment I made. I disagree with you
JM It's clear that if there's a complaint to be made ??
JP No
JP I disagree. She did write a blog and being shut down and excluded, sorry they, and referenced a comment I made. I disagree with you
JM It's clear that if there's a complaint to be made ??
JP No
JP Are u asking me about these docs or my character
JM You're v happy to make complaints about ppl?
JP No, a complaint about what was being presented to an all faculty message, we hadnt worked it out at that point
JM Shld we do something public? And our audeince isnt just Ian
JM You're v happy to make complaints about ppl?
JP No, a complaint about what was being presented to an all faculty message, we hadnt worked it out at that point
JM Shld we do something public? And our audeince isnt just Ian
JM This wld be outing ourselves
JP Outing ourselves as GC
JM Re JP on pronouns - he says it'll start a firestorm
JP Yep
JM Reminded that GC isnt a bad thing. Yr saying you understood it wld cause a firestorm?
JP Yes
JP Outing ourselves as GC
JM Re JP on pronouns - he says it'll start a firestorm
JP Yep
JM Reminded that GC isnt a bad thing. Yr saying you understood it wld cause a firestorm?
JP Yes
JM Do u accept a good rship with Ian?
JP Yes
JM Discussing his role and the LGBT+, and relevant emails, you could talk to him?
JP Yes
JM You write - I know I shldnt have but I did complain to the group about making lesbians invisible. I want to complain about lack of lesbians
JP Yes
JM Discussing his role and the LGBT+, and relevant emails, you could talk to him?
JP Yes
JM You write - I know I shldnt have but I did complain to the group about making lesbians invisible. I want to complain about lack of lesbians
JM Sent to LGBT Chair?
This shows a level of trouble making saying you know you shouldnt have done but did
JP No, not trouble making. I had been in discussions of GC views, freedom of speech, Essex, treating ideas as facts and experiencing years of censure. The level of sheer
This shows a level of trouble making saying you know you shouldnt have done but did
JP No, not trouble making. I had been in discussions of GC views, freedom of speech, Essex, treating ideas as facts and experiencing years of censure. The level of sheer
JP frustration. I knew it wouldnt have got anywhere which is why I said it. This was before Reindorf and Forstater.
JM You welcome Jessica Ennes. The T was a disgrace aand blatant discrimination re the pronouns. Do u agree the newletter was a disgrace?
JP Yes
JM You welcome Jessica Ennes. The T was a disgrace aand blatant discrimination re the pronouns. Do u agree the newletter was a disgrace?
JP Yes
JM Is it blatant politicisation?
JP No
JM JP says this is a network and strictly confidential
JP Yes, it was v hostile environment
JM Re the confidentiality, you didnt want ppl to know what u were doing?
JP This was about protection as it was a difficult environment
JP No
JM JP says this is a network and strictly confidential
JP Yes, it was v hostile environment
JM Re the confidentiality, you didnt want ppl to know what u were doing?
JP This was about protection as it was a difficult environment
JM Discussing forwarding complaint, shld also to MW and can push these buttons as an out lesbian
JP I said I'd peaked trans then as I realised the impact on me as a lesbian
JM Not flippant?
JP No. I saw it as my erasure
JM This was u causing trouble?
JP No
JP I said I'd peaked trans then as I realised the impact on me as a lesbian
JM Not flippant?
JP No. I saw it as my erasure
JM This was u causing trouble?
JP No
JM JP discussing being an open network as we need recognition.
JP Yes this is where the group crystalises. But not in my mind - this was after speaking to LMcG when she asked me if it was safe to be out as GC at the OU
JM After covid?
JP Yes.
JP Yes this is where the group crystalises. But not in my mind - this was after speaking to LMcG when she asked me if it was safe to be out as GC at the OU
JM After covid?
JP Yes.
JM You respond to JP, "now is the time - let's do this"
[describing the thread]
JP is lost in bundle
JP That is my response, yeah
JM Re planning the first meeting, setting a date. Do u know what aggressive victiming is?
JP No
Jm Discussing planning the meeting...
[describing the thread]
JP is lost in bundle
JP That is my response, yeah
JM Re planning the first meeting, setting a date. Do u know what aggressive victiming is?
JP No
Jm Discussing planning the meeting...
JM Jess says closing the poll and messages on Yamma,
JP I think this was about complaints about JP
JM Happy to describe on Zoom re dark arts in unis and ppl crashing their own cars into the wall
JP Yes, from memory, the complaints re JPs article included hate and screed. Vicious
JP I think this was about complaints about JP
JM Happy to describe on Zoom re dark arts in unis and ppl crashing their own cars into the wall
JP Yes, from memory, the complaints re JPs article included hate and screed. Vicious
JP I didnt want ppl to respond to fuel this fire, or we become part of the problem.
JM This was a political thing want it?
JP No academic. I'm a publicly engaged academic. If yr saying I was campaigning to open an academic network I wasnt campaigning but wanting a debate
JM This was a political thing want it?
JP No academic. I'm a publicly engaged academic. If yr saying I was campaigning to open an academic network I wasnt campaigning but wanting a debate
JP This isnt akin to campaigning
JM Re using OU email system.
JP I dont beleive I made any notes then but my mother was dying and I was trying to get a visa. we were all very afraid of using OU emails. It's hard to convey the amount of fear of putting head above parapet
JM Re using OU email system.
JP I dont beleive I made any notes then but my mother was dying and I was trying to get a visa. we were all very afraid of using OU emails. It's hard to convey the amount of fear of putting head above parapet
JP So trying to offer some type of protection by keeping off OU email
JM On the very afraid, theres nothing in the msgs about being v afraid?
JP Yes, it was commonly accepted and not discussed
We'd had KS being harrassed, Bindel assaulted, see the bundle for evidence
JM On the very afraid, theres nothing in the msgs about being v afraid?
JP Yes, it was commonly accepted and not discussed
We'd had KS being harrassed, Bindel assaulted, see the bundle for evidence
JP It didnt need to be debated in the whatsapp as we all understood the fear.
JP If you go back to the beginning of the whatsapp msgs..
JM Take yr computer in the break to have a look. You say u approached SE in the March re the group
JP If you go back to the beginning of the whatsapp msgs..
JM Take yr computer in the break to have a look. You say u approached SE in the March re the group
JM SE was v aware of the heat / focus / attention?
JP No
JM What do u mean by heat?
JP The attempt to close discussions down
JM U say u trust SE?
JP Yes
JM Discussing dark art of politics
JP Is about creating a space when it's fundamentally hostile
JP No
JM What do u mean by heat?
JP The attempt to close discussions down
JM U say u trust SE?
JP Yes
JM Discussing dark art of politics
JP Is about creating a space when it's fundamentally hostile
JM You needed to lay the ground before the poo reached the... It will cause comment?
JP Yes
JM U went into this with yr eyes open?
JP I knew there'd be a reaction but cldnt predict the scale and ferocity of it
JM SE was the only person know
JP I let MW and Ian know
JP Yes
JM U went into this with yr eyes open?
JP I knew there'd be a reaction but cldnt predict the scale and ferocity of it
JM SE was the only person know
JP I let MW and Ian know
JM A couple of weeks ahead and you werent specific saying "something is coming"?
JP I agree
JM 6 May 2021 re being back, pre surgery, ploughing ahead with launch and want an assistant, and JP and JP to be co-conveners as already in the crossfire
JP Yes
JP It's not going into
JP I agree
JM 6 May 2021 re being back, pre surgery, ploughing ahead with launch and want an assistant, and JP and JP to be co-conveners as already in the crossfire
JP Yes
JP It's not going into
JP battle but we had more experience of being attacked
JM Didnt u want the profile?
JP No, I dont need the profile from this
JM JP says on May 4th wanting an update and making a request /says doing ok. Needing to discuss terms of reference
JP No is about how to group as academics
JM Didnt u want the profile?
JP No, I dont need the profile from this
JM JP says on May 4th wanting an update and making a request /says doing ok. Needing to discuss terms of reference
JP No is about how to group as academics
JP Need to be above reproach in an institution.
JM Discussing academic leadership, working w SE and JP, application of a CV
JP Yes, same as I've done for others. Mentorship to progress careers in academia. Did also for various professors.
JM So is for promotion?
JM Discussing academic leadership, working w SE and JP, application of a CV
JP Yes, same as I've done for others. Mentorship to progress careers in academia. Did also for various professors.
JM So is for promotion?
JM He want to get promotion, yes?
JP Are u asking me his motivation, please repeat?
JM Rather than hiding away and being in fear you sought out that public profile? Do u accept that?
JP No, I can only speak for myself and I didnt need the profile as my CV speaks for itself.
JP Are u asking me his motivation, please repeat?
JM Rather than hiding away and being in fear you sought out that public profile? Do u accept that?
JP No, I can only speak for myself and I didnt need the profile as my CV speaks for itself.
JM Requests break for lunch
J Adjourn to 2.15pm
[JP says her microphone is about to run out of battery]
J Adjourn to 2.15pm
[JP says her microphone is about to run out of battery]
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