Thread by @redcoast

The Neil Gaiman allegations, episode 2 liveblog thread:

"The former nanny who alleges Neil Gaiman sexually assaulted her shares her WhatsApp messages with him. The messages appear friendly and affectionate. He says they’re evidence that she consented to sex with him. But is there another way of reading them?"

"Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile!"

"This is a hard listen at times."

We're going to get direct audio of Neil Gaiman's messages for Scarlett.

The journalists say that the What's App message they have from Scarlett's phone cover her entire relationship with Neil Gaiman and go back and forth for an entire year afterwards. ?!?!!?!

"The messages are friendly, often affectionate or supportive."

Journalist: "It feels like a very different story, not so black and white, like we're viewing the offense from the other end of the telescope." They're presuming there is an offense to view.

Journalist: "It really throws me, because when I read the What's App, Scarlett comes over to me as besotted."

Other journalist: "Messages like these appear to be evidence of consent in black and white."

😡

The journalists had better provide a really, really good fucking reason why they published this if they thought she was lying.

Journalist: "And they also make it appear he could *assume* consent was there. The two things are separate and both matter when it comes to law."

The journalist says that what Neil Gaiman was thinking is important, too. Ya think?!

Does any adult not understand this? This is what I was talking about in the last thread: mens rea, having intent. Hypothetically speaking, if there was no way for Neil Gaiman to think she wasn't consenting, it's not sexual assault.

But more to the point, it sounds like there's no reason to think that she actually wasn't consenting aside from the opinions of some of her friends who weren't actually there and didn't witness anything. And those opinions are essentially worthless.

"In other words, it wouldn't be fair to give someone an indication of consent and then claim assault." It's not that it wouldn't be fair; it would be a false accusation. A lie, one would say. "Not fair" is when you get less ice cream than the next customer.

Okay, we're rewinding to the outdoor bathtub. "She Googles 'neil gaiman' and 'me too.'"

No, she *claimed* she Googled it, in "privacy" mode so there's no record of this search.

https://x.com/redcoast/status/1808553776019591540

She might have Googled it, but we have proof that she did.

She messages him saying, "Thank you for a lovely, lovely night. Wow."

Scarlett says, "But it the following night that the worst abuse began." I don't remember that statement from the last episode.

They repeat that Scarlett alleges that the next night he has anal sex with her with butter as lube without a condom.

Now they're telling us her What's App message the next day: "Do you feel like a rain bath? smiley emoji"

The next day: "I am consumed by thoughts of you, the things you will do to me, I'm so hungry. What a terrible creature you've turned me into. I think you need to give me a huge spanking very soon. I'm fucking desperate for my master." That's from Scarlett to Neil.

If I've got it right, they met on Friday, and she sent that to him on Monday. He says she was into "mild BDSM," I guess describing that kind of message. She says he groomed her (over a weekend?)

Journalist: "This is just so hard to make sense of or understand."

No it's not, she's pretty clear.

Journalist: "On face value, the messages show a woman making her own choices with agency, a woman who choose to stay."

No. On face value, they show a woman who is engaged in consensual sex with Neil Gaiman.

Oh no, they're consulting with an "expert."

Two weeks after they meet, they're in a hotel room in Auckland. Neil says that they weren't supposed to be staying in the same room but at some point they wind up cuddling in his bed, fully clothed.

Scarlett says: "He went into the bathroom, pissed all over his hand, came back out, put his hand round my - round my face - you know - made me - made me- clean him up." (Put his hand round your face?)

The hesitations aren't due to her voice breaking, they're just repetitions. Scarlet: "Oh my god. Clean him up, that became a big thing. So he made me vomit multiple times, and then I would get - I would get punished, and have to clean him up"

Scarlett: "Or, if the anal sex was too painful and I was, I was basically screaming, he would get really, really angry, and I would get punished, and, um, have to, have to clean him up, which would often mean performing, you know, oral on him after -" "anal sex" - "yeah"

I would describe her tone as "casual." "And I remember Googling if these were safe, you know? and I sort of knew they weren't. and I knew that anal sex without condoms was not safe. And, you know, that I was always bleeding."

If she was really literally screaming during sex, I would ask why nobody heard her, like other family members. Or people in the hotel. Or wherever these things supposedly happened.

This is the message Scarlet sends Neil after he leaves NZ and she has COVID: "I may be ill but I am lying here with my sick little mind wondering into terrible, filthy, dark places, and I want you to, if I'm lucky, occasionally instruct me with naughty things to do."

Scarlett: "So that I can fill all this alone time imagining your cruelty. I'm sorry, I'm such a desperate and perverted and kinky sad little girl. What do they say? When you play with fire"

She totally has an AO3 account.

Honestly, she sounds like a virgin who has read a lot of fanfic. That's my take on this, including the abuse allegations. Have you ever tried to pee on your own hand?

They say Neil Gaiman's texts are "carefully worded." I mean, he is a writer. She sends him one that says "Extra punishment needed. Good night." He replies "Goodnight, dear."

Neil told the journalists that his replies show that she continued to initiate sexual contact with him. They do seem to show that.

Neil: "Dream dark dreams. I'm glad you are there with my unwashed clothes in my bed that smells like me. Be safe, and I worry about your COVID."

He sends her a message that there's a lot of vegetarian meals in the freezer.

Now they're talking about Occam's Razor. How about common sense? When one person makes an allegation and all the evidence points the other way, why would you keep believing it?

Scarlett, very casually, says the messages are hard to go through because, "You know, my delusion, and I'm so furious with myself." She does not sound furious.

The journalists ask experts "How can we reconcile her What's Apps to Neil Gaiman with her account to us of what happened?" That is not the right question to ask. The right question to ask is, "Is she telling the truth?"

They seem to be working from the assumption that her account is truthful and then trying to justify why the evidence doesn't fit it.

Journalist: "What do you do about sexual assaults within a relationship that was consensual?"

That is just totally off-topic. As far as I can tell, Scarlett has never said that she had feelings for him, in fact she said she was never attracted to him at all.

She also doesn't seem to be saying that any of the sex was consensual. She's portraying it all as rape, extremely hurtful and abusive in her interview.

They're talking to Evan Stark, the author of "Coercive Control: How Men Entrap Women in Personal Life." Well, that sounds biased from the get-go.

Neil Gaiman says that the journalists are "expert shopping." That's exactly what I just said, lol. You could go talk to someone who has expertise in investigating sexual assault claims, for instance.

They said they showed Evan Stark messages that Scarlett wrote that said she had consented to sex with Neil Gaiman. Um, are they going to share those messages with us? Please?

I just looked up Evan Stark, and he's recently deceased.

Evan Stark likens coercive control as a kind of con, and says that people afterwards usually feel ashamed of being conned.

Evan Stark: "The idea that you can consent to degradation is such a stupid idea. Only men can think this idea up."👀

Neil Gaiman points to the popularity of 50 Shades of Grey. Now that they're talking about sharing taxis with your juniors.

Okay, so Scarlett apparently tells Misma and Chris her allegations. Misma tells Amanda Palmer, who passes them on to Neil Gaiman. This is about two weeks after he went back to the UK out of NZ.

Scarlett sends a message to Neil saying she just wants to check in. Neil replies: "Honestly, when Amanda told me that you are telling people I'd raped you and were planning to Me Too me, I wanted to kill myself. But I'm getting through it a day at a time."

Neil: "And it's been two weeks now, and I'm still here, fragile, but more grace." I couldn't quite understand the very end of that sentence. The male journalist has a thick accent.

Scarlett responds: "Oh my god, Neil. I never said that. I have been deeply upset about it all because it's triggered things from my past and also for many reasons. I feel whiplash. But I am horrified by your message."

Scarlett: "Me Too you? Rape? What? This is the first I've heard of this. Wow. I need a moment to digest your message."
Scarlet: "Okay, it's been blown way out of proportion it seems. My heart is pounding. I'm so sorry you have been so not okay. I had no idea."

Scarlett to Neil: "I have never used the word rape. I am just so shocked. I honestly don't know what to say."
Neil to Scarlett: "It was very unstabilizing. I spent a week actively not killing myself, if you see what I mean."

Scarlett to Neil: "The more I hear, the more I am dying inside. I can't believe this has been told to you. It's absolutely not true. I feel sick to my stomach."
Neil to Scarlett: "Heart pounding." (not sure of the punctuation)

Scarlett to Neil: "I feel like bawling my eyes out. I would never Me Too you. I don't where that came from, and I have told Amanda that even though it began questionably, eventually it was undoubtedly consensual and I enjoyed it. Heart is pounding too."

Scarlett to Neil: "Neil, I am so deeply sorry to hear how terrifying this has been for you. I feel like I am being head-fucked. I am so, so shocked."

So, there you go. A categorical, explicit denial, in text, from his accuser.

Do I need to listen to the rest of the episode? You can't really claim he was being coercive. He was on the other side of the planet at this point.

Neil says that he doesn't know what "began questionably" in her text message meant, and he wishes that he had asked her at the time. Fair answer. The journalists are now asking if Neil could have "reasonably believed" that she consented to the bath tub sex. Yes.

Neil to Scarlett: "If I had Wayne, our therapist, call you, would you talk to him and just tell him what you've been telling me?"
Scarlett to Neil: "Okay. I am nauseous, and of course I will speak to Wayne."

Scarlett, now in the present, says "He had the therapist call me so I could tell the therapist that he didn't rape me and all of" (something)? The end is a bit indistinct. Her voice might be breaking with emotion, if so, that's the first time I've ever heard it.

Or, given that she's being interviewed over a video call, the audio was garbled. Anyway, Wayne the therapist winds up talking to Scarlett over the phone.

Scarlett messages Neil and says talking to Wayne was helpful.

The journalists repeat that they were unable to get any kind of reply or acknowledgment from Amanda Palmer.

Neil to Scarlett: "Misma's message to Amanda is kind of awful. I'm a monster in it." He's talking about the message detailed here and following tweets:

https://x.com/redcoast/status/1808587351641190730

Neil to Scarlett: "Knowing that you would be prepared to say it's not true, it was consensual, he's not a monster, makes me a lot more grounded."
Scarlet to Neil: "It was consensual. How many times do I have to fucking tell everyone?"

They're playing horror music in the back ground for some reason.

This is such a waste of my time. I have only one life to live and I spent hours of it driving through this cul-de-sac.

The journalists: "Neil Gaiman position is that messages from Scarlett, particular the ones where she says their relationship became consensual, should stop us from publishing her 'belated allegations of sexual misconduct,' that the messages are evidence of consent."

Amanda Palmer leaves NZ as well in April 2022, and shortly after Scarlett is hospitalized for "suicidal thoughts." Neil says she was treated for a "condition that is associated with false memories" ??

Now they're talking about Scarlett's history of mental health, but I straight-up do not trust these journalists to know anything. They don't say what she's been diagnosed with, past or present, but that she was taking zopiclone for sleep.

They also say she was only in the hospital overnight. She says he was sending her chocolates and "videos of Fiona Shaw talking to me because he knew I had a crush on Fiona Shaw." And "all this weird shit."

We hear audio of a message from Neil. He talks about suicidal ideation, says it's a "permanent end to some temporary problems." "I think you're funny, and smart, and a good person, and I think you have to stick around so I can introduce you to Fiona Shaw."

He sounds tired but gentle and loving. He sounds pretty normal for Neil Gaiman.

Scarlett: "This made me smile to no end. I can't stop smiling. It is so lovely to hear your voice." She goes on for a bit but you get the idea.

Another audio message from Neil, this one with the sound of a turn signal in the background: "Heya. Just sending you a message to remind you that it will all be okay."

Though I can only hear the messages, of course, I think they're actually videos.

We hear the message from Fiona Shaw, which just wishes that she will feel better soon.

Another audio message from Neil. He says he tried to call, she didn't pick up, he assumes that the sleeping pills were working. Neil: "Hang in there. We have to keep each other's heads above water." His voice is breaking, you can hear that he's nearly crying.

Again, I believe this is a video message sent via What's App. The journalists say he didn't respond to questions about Fiona Shaw, probably because they were stupid. She obviously knew very little.

Scarlett reaches out to someone who apparently worked with Neil and Amanda Palmer. She sends a message that says she heard some "pretty awful things happened to her." (From whom? This doesn't make much sense to me.)

They say that the woman responds "concerned about Scarlet" but doesn't say anything else. This is strangely nonspecific. Didn't the journalists try to reach this woman? Also, where would she have heard about this?

So far, the account hasn't mentioned anybody who would be a mutual friend of Scarlet and the Gaiman/Palmer household who would be able to tell her. Was this a cold call?

Video message to Neil from Scarlett: "I miss you so much as I said in my text. I hope you're doing all right, I worry." ... "I thank you for all your help. I am so grateful. It will get better for both of us and I can't wait to see you again."

This is how the journalist characterizes the message: "She's still holding out for connection, for relationship, a promise, even a lie."

Misma (I think?): "Her hope that this hadn't really been an exploitation but was genuine I'm sure went on for some time because who wants to acknowledge they've been victimized? In fact, you hope you haven't been victimized because that person does really care about you."

That isn't my understanding of what victimization means. It doesn't matter if the other person cares about you or not. Assault is still assault. I have been hurt by people I know genuinely love me. Them loving me doesn't make it not have happened.

And it doesn't change whether sex is consensual or not.

Scarlett says very matter of factly that something has "fundamentally shifted in her and she hasn't been able to get that back." To me - again, this is my personal opinion - it sounds like she's saying a line she read in a fanfic about rape. There's no emotion there.

In fact I'm pretty sure I've read that exact line in a fanfic before. Then she says, like an afterthought, "And the pain is also injustice and just, y'know."

And now, commercials! By the way, some people have said this is paywalled. I am listening to it for free. I just clicked on it and it played, but now I'm afraid if I click away it will disappear.

Message from Neil: He says he's in Denver on tour, "still alive." "Life is just weird." He still sounds sad and tired, his voice is a little unsteady like he wants to cry.

He says something about paying her rent for 6 months so she can find another job.

He ends with "Sending love. I hope you're okay."

He's nice about the rent payment, making it not a big deal, just so she can "get on her feet." I recognize that tone. Scarlet says he was paying her $315 NZ a week, "not a lot."

That's about $200 a week in U.S. money by current rates.

On 11 May, Scarlett gets an NDA from one of Neil's people. "I am also sending you a wire for your rent deposit." Scarlet makes it sound like signing the NDA was a requirement for getting the money, but the messages sounds like the money was showing up regardless.

Anyway, she says she signed the NDA, laughing. She says didn't even read it. They're acting like this is a very sinister thing. It's pretty clear what's going on here.

By summer 2022, Scarlett decides to report Neil to the police. She sends a message to the former employee saying this, adding that there's "a lot of evidence" that she wrote it was consensual "When of course it wasn't consensual."

The former employee tells her to go to a rape crisis center and says "Not sure if you signed an NDA :(." Scarlett sends an email to New Zealand police, says "He's an extremely high profile individual and possesses a great deal of financial and celebrity power."

She and the police exchange emails. She is apparently STILL MESSAGING NEIL GAIMAN as this happens. She asks him for money in December 2022. Neil replies, "How much do you need?"

She tells him how much she needs for rent, then asks him how he's feeling about returning to NZ. He says he's looking forward to it. This is their last exchange.

Police interview Scarlet in January. They video tape it, it goes over three days. Neil sends her one last message that says "... are you ok?" I guess because she hasn't sent him anything in a bit.

Okay, Scarlett gives her police report, they get the evidence from her phone, and then she says she hasn't heard anything from police yet. Now they're talking about her NDA.

Audio of Scarlett speaking to a police officer. She asks if anyone else has "come forward," he says he's investigated that and spoken to a lot of people and found nothing.

Now they're bringing in the second person's accusations. That's in the next episode, I think, but I need to eat supper.

They say that the second accuser, "like Scarlet, has a story worth hearing." I don't think that Scarlet's story was worth hearing. In fact, I feel like my time was massively wasted.