Thread by @tribunaltweets

We expect to resume at 1:45 in Peggie vs NHS Fife, Dr B Upton. The Claimant will continue with her evidence in chief.

A reminder of Judge Kemp's warning to witnesses.

The morning's reporting is here:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1886338…

A link to our Substack with background and press coverage.
open.substack.com/pub/tribunaltw…

A reminder to readers that our reporting should be considered as a whole. It is not a verbatim transcript of proceedings as we explain in our Substack as linked via our X bio. We report in good faith and make all efforts to ensure our output is fair and accurate.

Abbreviations:
C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
JR - Jane Russell KC, barrister for respondents

AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for respondents
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members
CR - changing room
AE - Accident & emergency department
PCP – provision, criteria or practice

PCP – provision, criteria or practice is a rule, policy, or practice that can put people at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. Used in employment law to assess whether an employer's actions create different outcomes for employees based on their characteristics.

GC or SR: belief that biological sex is real, important, immutable, and different from gender identity
TWAW - transwomen are women (often used to refer to male persons who claim a female gender identity)

Panel members sitting with EJ,
P1 - CM Russell
P2 - L Brown.
TMAM - transmen are men (often used to refer to female persons who claim a male gender identity)
CX - complaint
DX - disciplinary procedure or process
IX - investigation

ED - Esther Davidson, line manager
LC - Louise Curran, charge nurse
KC - Kate Searle, A&E consultant.

We are waiting for the hearing to resume.

The Judge and Panel have returned.
NC is rebooting her screen.
SP returns to witness chair.
NC - you mentioned have said to DU something about previous bad experiences with men, can you tell the ET about it
SP - at 17 I went to the doctor who put me on tablets and said

I would need periodic exams for lumps. He asked me to strip off my top half, then took a very lengthy time checking my breasts. He then said he would show me how to do it myself. And he used my hand to do it on both breasts. And then he wanted to watch me while I did it

myself.
J - instructing remote observers to turn off microphones.
<some further checking going on>
SP - after that on 2 occasions the same when I went back for repeat prescriptions, the 3rd time he wanted to check I was doing it properly myself.
NC - when did you speak to

someone about it
SP - it was about 20 years later, was talking with friends about embarrassing situations and how i refused to go for smear tests because I was afraid of the examination.
And was told that that should never have happened.
NC - you told the IX your story

did you give DU any details
SP - no I did not
NC - you mentioned a prison incident, what were you talking about
SP - yes it was Isla Bryson who was a TW placed in a woman's prison.
NC - why did you mention that
SP - I think it was just because I wanted him to understand

how women might feel, how intimidating it was.
NC - how did he respond
SP - he was indifferent
NC - did he say anything
SP - no.

NC - can you tell the tribunal what this document is
SP - it's about an exchange of emails
NC - do you remember that doc, what is it
SP - a response to the allegations,
NC - whose
SP - mine
NC - can you tell the tribunal why you chose to raise your concerns about using the

women's changing room directly with DU?
SP - i wasn't getting anywhere with management, a negative response or no response
NC - that convo in the CR was on Christmas Eve, 2023, when did your shift end
SP - about 1 am.
NC - did you talk to anyone about it
SP - yes, spoke to my

husband, told him DU and I had a discussion in the CR, DU had started undressing, I was feeling embarrassed.
NC - DU says you were in the Cr on 28 November do you remember that
SP - no, I don't remember that
NC - did you work the shift on 30 December - your next scheduled shift

SP - no I did not. I got a phone call in the car that there had been a serious allegation of bullying from someone at work, had been discussed with senior management and they had decided the best course of action was to give me special leave.

NC - how did you respond
SP - i was surprised, I knew it DU they were talking about, I hadn't spoken to anyone else that might have made a complaint. I knew it was detrimental to my colleagues working that night, leaving them shorthanded.

NC - did you tell anyone else you'd been put on special leave,
SP - yes, I went into my parents house, I started crying and they asked me what had happened.
NC - can you describe how you felt
SP - more shocked than anything, I didn't feel that it was anything more involved

just a discussion about something and DU and I couldnt agree on.
NC - another exchange between you and Charlene (?) <screenshots of text messages> After you were put on special leave, when did you next hear from R?
SP - I heard on the 1st. She said she had been on annual leave

and only just heard of the complaint. She was going to continue the special leave for my next shift and then she was going to get someone to speak to me.
NC - how did that make you feel
SP - better, felt I had someone to talk to
NC - what happened next
SP - I was at MiL

on 4 January, got a phone call from ED to tell me that she had been in contact with HR, and there was so much to discuss it would be better if I would come in a speak to them. I told her I could come in on 5 Jan
NC - what were your expectations of that meeting

SP - I thought we were just going to have a friendly chat and she would tell me what was happening.
NC - was that what happened
SP - no - ED was there, plus another manager, plus someone else (missed) I asked if I should have representation, ED said no but you will need to get

one. And I was informed they were going to tell me what the update was. Angie Shepherd (AS) went on to tell me I was suspended from then, my work badge would be deactivated, I couldn't access my working area.

AS told me that I would have a support person that I would be able to contact,
NC - what were told as the reason for the suspension
SP - the incidents between DU and I in the CR.
NC - turning to the suspension letter, looking at that it is dated 4 January, are you mistaken

SP - no it was definitely on 4th Jan because of the timing of holidays.
NC - so you're confident the letter is incorrect as to dates and your recollection is correct
SP - yes, I am
NC - what time was the meeting
SP - 3:45 pm.
NC - what happened at the end of the meeting

I was asked if I want to go out via the rear door and I was given a handkerchief even though i wasn't crying. I told her I was angry.
NC - what did she say
SP - I know, I thought that she was agreeing I should be angry.
NC - why were you angry

SP - I was angry that I was asked to come in and I thought it was under false pretences and nobody asked me about my side
NC - when did you next hear from R
SP - I had a letter 2 days later informing me of my suspension, later had a phone call from Michelle Gilmour MC the

service manager. She had escorted me from the hospital.
NC - what was said in that convo
SP - asked how I was feeling was there anything I needed to know, I told her I had 2 elderly relatives that had been in hospital recently and would be again, I needed to be able access

the hospital and she said yes, and she would call me another time.
NC - what happened next
SP - I had a phone call from occupational health asking if I needed support.
NC - now looking at letter on 2nd Feb, extending suspension, how did that make you feel

SP - I felt like I was being penalised, no one had asked me for a statement, I still hadn't heard what the complaint was about me.
NC - AS says 'the IX is still ongoing' what had you heard during that previous month
SP - nothing
NC - had you made any attempt to find out

SP - I had asked MG about the complaint
NC - what was the response
SP - I got something at the end of February, it was a copy of the complaint DU had made.
NC - now looking at copy of complaint in bundle. Can you tell the Tribunal what you make of this account?

SP - I didn't 'unexpectedly' stop Beth, needed to go into the toilet, never used any offensive language, don't recall using the word chromosomes, and I never mentioned the word grievance. I can't recall anything be said that was tense, I don't recall any confrontation.

NC - the last 2 lines, 'represents an escalation of prior behaviours in which nurse A refused to acknowledge DU in work situations'.
SP - I don't know what this was talking about. I had worked with DU in the department, quite often I would work as coordinator, most of the

interaction between the doctors.
NC - there was suspension review meeting with Charlotte Miles, ED and RCN rep Stuart Fraser. What was discussed at that meeting.
SP - CM told me it was a review of my suspension, a brief history of what had happened, and asked if I could

elaborate. She wanted to organise for me to go back to work
NC - what arrangements were discussed
SP - both CM and ED said that DU was still working in the department, could I work with him, I said I wouldn't have a problem. Then they asked and told me that the better

arrangements were to work elsewhere.
NC - what was discussed
SP - elsewhere in the hospital or minor injuries,
NC - how did your feel about the suggestion you should move elsewhere
SP - not particularly happy, I loved my job in the A&E

NC - what did you believe was going to happen at the end of the meeting
SP - I thought I was going back to work
NC - what happened next
SP - I called and talked to the charge nurse to find out working hours and shifts, she informed me that I was to return on day shifts

SP cont - I told her I couldn't manage that, and the next day to contact ED. I was told that this was what the managers had decided so that support from senior staff was available.
NC - what did you think about support from senior staff
SP - I had no idea what they were saying

I was senior staff on the night shift. No one had phoned me during the suspension to explain why this was neccesary.
NC - email from CM, apologies for delay, thank you for your time, this is an account of the convo that you described, is that a fair account
SP - yes it is

NC - we see a letter from the Board's solicitor sending your account of where things have got to, and then your solicitor's email to AW, where she protests that you are not allowed to return to your usual shift patterns, and seeking assurances that DU would not use female CR

NC - now looking at a response, what does it say
SP - it was that DU would continue to use the CR and that there would need to be a further extension of your suspension
NC - how did you feel
SP - I felt they were purposefully making things difficult for me, I wanted to return

to work.
NC - asking SP to read a specific para, how did you feel
SP - I was upset, nothing about patient care had been raised before this point, I've never had any complaints,
NC - what did you decide to do about return to work
SP - I wanted to go back into night shift

but I agreed to do weekend shifts, which would help with my personal situation.
NC - now referring to letter in which SP accepted return to work on weekend shifts and had found someone to care for dog, why did you accept that arrangement

SP - I wanted to return to work and it was clear I wasn't going to go back to night shifts.
NC - what happened next
SP - I was contacted by AS, about an IX meeting

NC - can you describe what happened at that meeting
SP - I meet AS, SF was there as my rep, AS explained that the IX was ongoing and she would contact me within the next 2 weeks.
NC - now a letter to you 12 April, has been asked to undertake an IX

from Angela Glancy. When did you expect to hear from her next
SP - I was told 2 weeks but I never heard anything, until August.
NC - a couple of questions about talking about the case in the workplace. have your colleagues been given any guidance about talking about the case

SP - no, I was told by several people that ED had told them not to speak about, and the receptionists had been told by their manager not to discuss anything.
NC - what did you understand the scope of that instruction, what were they not supposed to discuss

SP - not supposed to discuss anything about me being suspended or the complaint.
NC - have you discussed the situation with DU using the CR at all
SP - yes, with close colleagues, names several, including a consultant who was surprised the DU was allowed to use the CR.

NC - you mentioned Gary Pearson, who's that
SP - he's a health care support worker that was appalled that DU was allowed to use the CR
NC - were you told not to discuss
SP - I was told that I was not allowed to speak about the situation, I told her that I had already spoken to my

solicitor, and was taking her advice, I felt like there was an elephant in the room,
NC - why an elephant in the room
SP - people knew about the IX, it was talked about in the department, people not speaking about it, made it worse than someone asking about it.

NC - now a letter from Angela Glancey, inviting you to attend an IX meeting and you provided a written statement before that meeting. Is that the statement you provided in advance of the IX meeting.
SP - Yes.
NC - taking to a specific para; on the tribunals list of essential

reading. It took place on 30 August and we have the notes of that meeting from R. During that meeting were you asked for any more details?
SP - no
NC - were you asked the identity of the colleague who had given you that info
SP - No
NC - a further IX meeting for 14 october

You provided a 2nd statement. Is that right
SP - yes
NC - we see that being sent by your solicitor to AW. And then what happened? Did you go to that 2nd meeting.
SP - yes.
NC - please read 1st para on 391, AW's email to MG on 11 October

NC - just asked you if you had to go to that meeting, AW says now we have had additional clarification further meeting wasn't necessary so you didn't have to go?
SP - that's right, it wasn't necessary.
NC - at this point did you think there was any further IX to be done

NC - now clarifying the number of meetings and the dates.
Some discussion about whether a meeting happened in October.
NC - When did you receive the IX report
SP - in December.
NC - that's I have.
J - can we continue, or a short break?

Tribunal will take a short break.
End of Afternoon part 1.

@threadreaderapp unroll please