Thread by @tribunaltweets

We are about to start the late pm session of Sandy Peggie (SP) vs Fife Health Board at Dr Upton (DU) at Dundee Employment Tribunal. Earlier coverage and background information can be found in our Substack in our bio.

Abbrevs:
SP: Sandie Peggie or C
NC: Naomi Cunningham, counsel for C
R1: Fife HB
R2 or DU: Dr Upton
JR: Jane Russell , counsel for respondents
J: Judge
P: Panel member
ED: Esther Davidson. line manager
MC: Michelle Gilmour
SF: Stuart Fraser, RCN rep

JR: Please look at p578. This is code of professional standards for nurses and midwifes? Do you abide by them?
SP: Yes and yes
JR: Under heading prioritise people [reads about treating ppl w kindness, respect, recognising personal cjoice and dignity]

JR Do you do this?
SP Yes
JR [reads re acting fairly, without bullying and harassment] You maintain u do this?
SP Yes
JR Be aware of how u may affect other ppl? And stick to the law? Are u aware there's a PC of harassment but you haven't done this have you?
SP I believe have

JR Do you cause distress?
SP No
JR Make sure you don't persue yr personal beliefs? Are you sure?
SP Yes and yes
JR DU had permission to use the CR?
SP Yes
JR [describes a small room and its sizes]
SP It's an approx size I gave and cld be bigger

JR Taking you to DU summary in the IX report
J Can you slow down please?
JR In interview of DU to investigators. ISnt it right u treated DU differently?
SP Not within the dept
JR DU informed us of 2 occasions [reading where felt was treated differently and didn't engage w

her] U ignored her?
SP No
JR Claiming SP ignored her even when discussing patient concerns, and planned to raise issues w her manager. U didnt respond directly to her?
SP I can't recall ever ignoring Beth
JR On p148, allegations 1&2 about ignoring her in early 2023

SP U asked another nurse to complete obs when she arrived, so an alleg to provide patient care. U refused to work w her to the disadvantage of patients
SP I didnt refuse to work w her nor answer her
JR U preferred to talk to her collegaues?
SP No

U did this as she's trans?
SP No
JR A week before the Xmas eve incident, DU wrote "won't make eye contact, I can feel the dismissal, cldn't find her, SP wouldnt look or respond to me and left the area" That's her contemporaneous note.
SP I dont recall this
JR Do u have any

JR evidence to refute this?
SP No. But I didn't ignore her.
JR Looking at the IX interviews, and these bullet points re Louise not noting issues but dynamics were difficult. SP might ignore or delegate requests of DU. U cldnt stand being in the same place?

NC: That's a false reading of the doc so ignore please
JR On being told of dynamics of u exiting a cubicle, it had been brought to Louise's attention?
SP I think Beth's making it up
JR Other's had noticed this and that's what I mean
SP Y'll have to ask others

SP I've never ignored Beth
JR We'll look at Dr Sell's evidence who told DU about these behaviours (consultant). They reported these to LC not DU
SP I can only believe she's talked to DU
JR It's not what the doc says? Perhaps she's noticed yr behaviour?

SP I dont know why she's said that. Y'll have to ask her
JR Cldn't she see how you behaved? DU's account in bullet 6 [reads re asking her to continue nurses obs and asked her to do yr job]
SP The only time I worked was with was [missed] I may have asked her if called to anothe

SP patient. Unusaul to ask dr to take obs but not in an emergency
JR Are you aware of grievances or violence against DU?
SP No and no
JR Nor of sexual harassment?
SP No
JR P423, IX interview w ED. ED noted [reads re issues w SP she know about a jr staff member when SP unkind

JR and other incidents of friction in the ED.
SP I think it's wrong how its described. She had to speak to the junior about their behaviour and care
JR She's spoken to u about yr professionalism?
SP No, never
JR U have negative feelings towards her dont you?
SP No

SP I only have a problem w the CR
JR No record of DU's bad behaviour?
SP No
JR Beth said no issues re DU's interactions w patients. Unremitting praise from ED?
SP Yes, she has a rep as being caring?
JR a good dr?
SP yes, so I've heard
JR Nothing to say uncaring?
SP No

JR This doc is 7.3.24 susp review meeting report of SF. [reads re Charlotte and Sandy and bio woman entering room. Sandy found a male entering F spaces is wrong]
SP No I woldnt have a problem w a bio Female
JR U make a distinction between bio and non-bio women?
SP yes

JR It's your firm opinion they're no the same?
SP Yes
JP I've heard commentary behind me saying "that's ridiculous". U say u can always tell?
SP Yes
JR Can u always tell?
SP Accept not always
JP This is Lord Tinion's judgment about not saying it was obvious DU a man

JR U agree that it's not always obvious and can present different to birth sex?
SP Yes
JR So if cant always tell who is biological M&F, risk confronting a bio woman in F CR?
SP It's presence of man makes me uncomfortable
JR But u say u can't always tell

JR U might challenge and harass a bio woman by mistake?
SP I wld remove myself
JR Sometimes you do but sometimes u challenge
SP Wldn't that make u challendge a F. I would only challange a male
SP On this occasion I could tell was a male

JR On 26.8.23 in CR when DU already there, u say no-one else there in yr paperwork?
SP I dint see anyone else but I only opened the door
JR But a registrar was also there?
SP I didnt see them
JR This is DU note "weird incident" [reads about greetings] Abrupt do u agree?

JR No physical interaction or abuse by DU? Or sexual interaction at all?
SP No and no
JR U complain only about prescence in CR?
SP that's right
JR U cldnt have said conduct was unwanted if only said Hi? U waited for her to leave?
SP Yes to both

JR On 25.10.23, accept the date?
SP Yes
JR DU entered CR with you in CR?
SP Yes
JR In bra and trousers. [reads from notes: She did it again re walking out. No mention from Beth u were in bra and trousers]
SP No
JR Wasn't on her own though?

SP I don't recall who she was with
JR Your practice was to leave CR?
SP Yes
JR No further interaction?
SP No
JR No physical abuse or harassment?
SP Correct
JR Nothing sexual, or abuse or sexual harassment?
SP No
JR U didnt say her conduct unwanted?
SP No

JR U talked to Beth re CR and 2 discussions later?
SP Yes.
JR U say the 1st was soon after Aug 23
SP At end of shift on 26th, yes
JR U said unhappy w man in CR. Are u referring to DU. R says it made u uncomfortable?
SP Yes. ED said she's sort it with E&D.

JR U thought she'd take advice from E&D lead?
SP Yes, but didnt know the lead at that time
JR U cld use cubicles in meantime?
SP Yes
JR Didnt she say she's look into matters rather than get it sorted?
No
JR You did have a further conversation didnt you in Nov

23. There wasnt anything else?
SP No
JR ED sourced advice from E&D in Nov 23?
SP So I believe
JR In yr IX interview, SP met ED and asked how E&D mtg had gone. How did u know where she'd asked for advice?
SP Nurse LC told me
JR When?
SP I dont remeber

SP Closer to Nov meeting I think, but dont recall.
JR U say didnt get anywhere w E&D and not given any advice?
SP Yes
JR But not correct. Advice was given.
SP She told u she never got anywhere
JR She told u DU could be in CR?
SP Not what said at that point, no

JR Re SF notes and removing herself from CR if DU entered. E&D said DU entitled to be there. Discussed alternative changing facilities and using toilet. Suggests it was fed back to you?
SP I dont remeber ED saying that.
SP I was made aware of DU'd rights later. I cldnt

SP recall all at time. I said it wasnt fair for me to move after all this time. And I wasnt the only one.
JR No-one else complained?
SP No one else has come 4wd and they dont want to be in my position
JR My Q was about yr intention and not fairness. u never intended to change

anywhere else did you?
SP No
JR [describes other options incl basement] Yr rigidity on changing is cos u wanted to challenge DU?
SP No. That's why I left and allowed him to change.
JR Yr counsel uses word challenge. It's what u wanted too?
No, I wanted him to understand

SP my feelings.
JR Didnt NC use those words?
SP I dont recall.
JR U told ED y'd have to say something to DU if met in the CR?
SP Yes
JR. I have 3 more Qs. The mitigation section: a summary [reads SP wld have it out with him if met in CR]. Rather malignant statement?

SP That wasn't said
JR This is a contested word - confront- but said...
NC The C has never said the word confront
JR Apologies
SP I never said confront or have it out with
JR There was underlying menace though?
SP Not at all
J That's it for today. we'll see you all at 10am

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