This is day 7 of evidence from the hearing of Ms B Hutchison and others v County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust, being held at Newcastle Employment Tribunal. We expect to continue our reporting from 10am this morning.
A group of nurses from Darlington Memorial Hospital are bringing this ET against their employers, alleging sexual harassment and sex discrimination.
It concerns the Trust’s policy of allowing a male colleague, identifying as a woman named Rose Henderson, to use the female changing room.
The nurses argue that sharing the changing facilities with Henderson has caused them distress. One nurse, a survivor of sexual abuse, reported experiencing panic attacks.
After raising concerns with hospital management, they were informed they needed to be “re-educated” to be more “inclusive” and offered an office space to change in instead of the female changing room.
Our live tweeting is not a verbatim transcript. We attempt to report as much of what we hear in court as possible. We make every effort to report accurately and do so in good faith. We make frequent use of abbreviations; see the Substack page if meaning is not obvious.
We will correct any substantive inadvertent factual errors that are brought to our attention promptly. Our reporting is best understood when read as a whole.
Abbreviations:
J/EJ - Employment Judge Sweeney
P - One of 2 Panel members
C/Ns - Claimants - the Darlington nurses
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for Claimants
MP - Michael Phillips, solicitor for Claimants
J/EJ - Employment Judge Sweeney
P - One of 2 Panel members
C/Ns - Claimants - the Darlington nurses
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for Claimants
MP - Michael Phillips, solicitor for Claimants
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust
SC - Simon Cheetham KC, barrister for Respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, male colleague claiming a female identity
DMH/H/Hospital - Darlington Memorial Hospital
SC - Simon Cheetham KC, barrister for Respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, male colleague claiming a female identity
DMH/H/Hospital - Darlington Memorial Hospital
The Claimant Nurses:
KD - Karen Danson
BH - Bethany Hutchison
CH - Carly Hoy
JP - Jane Peveller
MG - Mary Annice Grundy
TH - Tracey Hooper
ST – Sharen Trevarrow
LL - Lisa Lockey
KD - Karen Danson
BH - Bethany Hutchison
CH - Carly Hoy
JP - Jane Peveller
MG - Mary Annice Grundy
TH - Tracey Hooper
ST – Sharen Trevarrow
LL - Lisa Lockey
Other names:
SS - Siobhan Sinclair, Well-being officer at DMH, now retired
SW - Sue Williams, HR at Trust
TA - Tracy Atkinson, HR at Trust
AT - Andrew Thacker, Director of Workforce at Trust
SS - Siobhan Sinclair, Well-being officer at DMH, now retired
SW - Sue Williams, HR at Trust
TA - Tracy Atkinson, HR at Trust
AT - Andrew Thacker, Director of Workforce at Trust
Further:
CR/CF - Changing Room or Facilities
GR – Grounds of Resistance
IX – Internal Investigation
SH – Sexual Harrassment
SD – Sex Discrimination
HM – Hospital Management
WS - Witness Statement
WA - Whatsapp
CLC - Christian Legal Centre
CR/CF - Changing Room or Facilities
GR – Grounds of Resistance
IX – Internal Investigation
SH – Sexual Harrassment
SD – Sex Discrimination
HM – Hospital Management
WS - Witness Statement
WA - Whatsapp
CLC - Christian Legal Centre
SEAL - Surgical Elective Admission Lounge
DSU - Day Surgery Unit
TG - Transgender
TW – Transwoman
RP – Resolution Procedure
TITWPP – Trans in the Workplace Procedure Policy
EQA/EA – Equality Act 2010
DSU - Day Surgery Unit
TG - Transgender
TW – Transwoman
RP – Resolution Procedure
TITWPP – Trans in the Workplace Procedure Policy
EQA/EA – Equality Act 2010
Tracy Atkinson is continuing her evidence.
The link is opened. The court is empty at the moment.
J Apologies for late start. Other matters unconnected with this.
J You are still under oath, Mrs Atkinson.
NF To bundle, p 94. We left off talking yesterday about 27 March / April. CG email sending letter to Morgan Smith, 4 April. Ms Smith reply - will pass to relevant parties
J You are still under oath, Mrs Atkinson.
NF To bundle, p 94. We left off talking yesterday about 27 March / April. CG email sending letter to Morgan Smith, 4 April. Ms Smith reply - will pass to relevant parties
NF [To docs] Next bit in sequence. Ms Smith passing it on to others - first Mr Moore, secondly you. Your email in reply, to return to that. 27 March letter via Smith to you and you are responding to that. You say, thanks, this is much wider. Andrew and I are involved.
NF There are concerning behaviours.
NF I said you were referring to those who had written the letter and you disagreed.
TA Yes, disagreed.
NF We will come back to that for you.
NF To interview held with you as part of ix process. You are recounting history of your involvement
NF I said you were referring to those who had written the letter and you disagreed.
TA Yes, disagreed.
NF We will come back to that for you.
NF To interview held with you as part of ix process. You are recounting history of your involvement
TA yes
NF You tell the story and mention what you call the petition going around theatres as something warned about in advance. Then you talk c mtg on 15/4. You say. I was concerned about the petition and staff being approached by DSU staff. Not how we raise concerns
NF You tell the story and mention what you call the petition going around theatres as something warned about in advance. Then you talk c mtg on 15/4. You say. I was concerned about the petition and staff being approached by DSU staff. Not how we raise concerns
in the workplace. This was your thinking at the time
TA y
NF The behaviour is the letter.
TA I thought there would be risk to RH as letter being harassment. Not sure RH had shared she was a TG female and concerned c being shared. Concerned c how we managed conflicting rights
TA y
NF The behaviour is the letter.
TA I thought there would be risk to RH as letter being harassment. Not sure RH had shared she was a TG female and concerned c being shared. Concerned c how we managed conflicting rights
of all parties. Petition wasn't my language- that was language used by staff. Our role is to care for patients in clinical area. That was my concern.
J [re some concern c a camera and someone's footwear.] Can we get a message to them?
J IF the person with large comfortable brown
J [re some concern c a camera and someone's footwear.] Can we get a message to them?
J IF the person with large comfortable brown
slippers is watching, please disengage camera.
Laughter
Counsel - It's the same person with the dog.
[Person being asked to disengage/turn camera off]
J Can't continue until get this sorted.
NF [to TA] Concerning behaviours. Is that the letter?
Laughter
Counsel - It's the same person with the dog.
[Person being asked to disengage/turn camera off]
J Can't continue until get this sorted.
NF [to TA] Concerning behaviours. Is that the letter?
TA Concerned c affect of letter on all parties, including DSU colleagues who were upset, on RH and theatre colleagues
NF Behaviour?
TA Taking petition around in a clinical setting was a cancer.
J NF is asking you whose behaviours.
NF Behaviour?
TA Taking petition around in a clinical setting was a cancer.
J NF is asking you whose behaviours.
TA The Claimants. It is behaviour taking petition around clinical area and asking ppl to sign it. I was concerned c impact that might have.
NF When first aware of concerns re RH in F CR in 2023. Did you notify Morgan Smith.
TA Aware JB trying to balance conflict situation.
NF When first aware of concerns re RH in F CR in 2023. Did you notify Morgan Smith.
TA Aware JB trying to balance conflict situation.
NF We don't have M Smith coming. [reads to TA c other complaints, or I might be mistaken]
TA Can't confirm. Don't know what M Smith has in her mind.
NF Former incidents?
TA Yes but says she might be mistaken.
NF reads c see what done elsewhere.
NF A trust-wide position
TA Can't confirm. Don't know what M Smith has in her mind.
NF Former incidents?
TA Yes but says she might be mistaken.
NF reads c see what done elsewhere.
NF A trust-wide position
involves looking at what done elsewhere
TA Could have meant a number of things, trying to balance ppl rights.
NF M Smith says c trust-wide solution needed, not just at local level.
TA I understood that - can't speak for her - she was aware conflicting national guidance.
TA Could have meant a number of things, trying to balance ppl rights.
NF M Smith says c trust-wide solution needed, not just at local level.
TA I understood that - can't speak for her - she was aware conflicting national guidance.
TA She would have been checking what are we doing as a trust as against our regional partners.
NF You agreed it could raise SG concerns.
TA I knew at point there could be SG risks but would need to ix letter to understand SG risks.
NF You have potential SG risks?
NF You agreed it could raise SG concerns.
TA I knew at point there could be SG risks but would need to ix letter to understand SG risks.
NF You have potential SG risks?
TA No. A letter raising poss concerns. I felt was important to ix
J Witness said could be SG, but need to ix. Have been there.
NF What might that urgent attention look like. Would look different from what did happen. Eg RH to change elsewhere.
J Witness said could be SG, but need to ix. Have been there.
NF What might that urgent attention look like. Would look different from what did happen. Eg RH to change elsewhere.
TA I'm not a decision maker in this instant. Individuals closer would have their role as managing SG risk.
J A long answer. Not your decision. Whose?
TA Those closer to matter or who know individuals
J In this case, if not you..
J A long answer. Not your decision. Whose?
TA Those closer to matter or who know individuals
J In this case, if not you..
TA Managers - if it were the Claimant's line manager, SG could raise concern, to matron, named SG nurse etc. Colleagues could raise SG concerns.
NF Did you check after getting letter if SG concerns were being addressed
TA I immediately set up a mtg with management team.
NF Did you check after getting letter if SG concerns were being addressed
TA I immediately set up a mtg with management team.
TA I didn't understand at first what exact situation - could be a poss SG
NF But situation if correctly described in letter, use of CR by RH was continuing while addressed
TA If correctly described
NF You would't know if conduct was accurately
NF But situation if correctly described in letter, use of CR by RH was continuing while addressed
TA If correctly described
NF You would't know if conduct was accurately
described or continuing
TA What conduct do you mean?
NF Reads, c RH asking why not changing, intimidating and upsetting. RH Taking keen interest in them not changing.
NF Did you consider possibly this is correct description
and would happen again if RH continuing to use CR
TA What conduct do you mean?
NF Reads, c RH asking why not changing, intimidating and upsetting. RH Taking keen interest in them not changing.
NF Did you consider possibly this is correct description
and would happen again if RH continuing to use CR
TA It would be for the managers to assess if they thought there was a risk in that regard.
NF Mtg April 2024. Didn't take a note at time of mtg
TA Correct
NF Wrote later. Scribbled down notes - that's my practice.
NF Scribbled down and typed up later? Haven't seen your
NF Mtg April 2024. Didn't take a note at time of mtg
TA Correct
NF Wrote later. Scribbled down notes - that's my practice.
NF Scribbled down and typed up later? Haven't seen your
handwritten notes. Not full or accurate
TA no. I note down roughly what was said - go to many management mtgs.
NF Was aim of mtg to decide what to do re letter
TA. No. To give support to the managers to manage the situation.
NF Wouldn't support include advice what to do?
TA no. I note down roughly what was said - go to many management mtgs.
NF Was aim of mtg to decide what to do re letter
TA. No. To give support to the managers to manage the situation.
NF Wouldn't support include advice what to do?
TA Potentially. To put into a resolution process. But would need to establish what advice they needed.
NF Your action was to put process in place.
TA Action was to understand how best to move this forward.
NF You had predetermined view - not to ask t member of staff to change
NF Your action was to put process in place.
TA Action was to understand how best to move this forward.
NF You had predetermined view - not to ask t member of staff to change
elsewhere.
TA Was trying to establish the specifics of the concerns. Would support putting that into a formal process for best outcome.
J What didn't you understand
TA I was aware of conflicting- if we asked RH to change in different area would be treating RH differently.
TA Was trying to establish the specifics of the concerns. Would support putting that into a formal process for best outcome.
J What didn't you understand
TA I was aware of conflicting- if we asked RH to change in different area would be treating RH differently.
Unclear re f hormones.
J You get letter - was it clear or unclear to you
TA Clear there were concerns within the area. In mtg I wanted to understand trigger for concerns.
J Understood concerns
I understand the concerns in the letter, yes. Not clear what to do about it.
J You get letter - was it clear or unclear to you
TA Clear there were concerns within the area. In mtg I wanted to understand trigger for concerns.
J Understood concerns
I understand the concerns in the letter, yes. Not clear what to do about it.
J Concerns in letter v clear. More difficult is what to do about it.
TA Yes, J.
NF
TA Wanted to find what management thought was a solution, what the DSU colleagues thought.
NF Letter writers wanted somewhere else to be found for RH to change.
TA Wanted to find out more about
TA Yes, J.
NF
TA Wanted to find what management thought was a solution, what the DSU colleagues thought.
NF Letter writers wanted somewhere else to be found for RH to change.
TA Wanted to find out more about
the situation and what managers Not my decision
J Whose decision
TA here would be ix officer
J ix officer would ix and record. Ultimately whose decision if not yours.
TA If not by matron to assoc dir of Nursing.
J Whose decision is it on policy
TA Trust decision
J Whose decision
TA here would be ix officer
J ix officer would ix and record. Ultimately whose decision if not yours.
TA If not by matron to assoc dir of Nursing.
J Whose decision is it on policy
TA Trust decision
J How does a manager in care group resolve this if it's on policy
TA That's the problem.
J If manager wanted to resolve re letter writers' wishes, would go against policy. How so
TA Couldn't do so.
NF Back to q
TA Our policy allowed RH to use F cr. Conflict. I felt
TA That's the problem.
J If manager wanted to resolve re letter writers' wishes, would go against policy. How so
TA Couldn't do so.
NF Back to q
TA Our policy allowed RH to use F cr. Conflict. I felt
needed to be looked into appropriately within process. NF [to docs] Account of history given in July 24 to ix. 'I could not support asking member of staff who is transitioning to change somewhere else" That is your view.
TA Advocating TG colleague to change somewhere else.
TA Advocating TG colleague to change somewhere else.
My view was based on that.
NF you said Cs need to be educated and broaden mindset
TA Didn't say they needed to be educated. Talked c inclusivity
TA I appreciated what DSU colleagues were asking for but was conflicted about situation. I couldn't win.
NF you said Cs need to be educated and broaden mindset
TA Didn't say they needed to be educated. Talked c inclusivity
TA I appreciated what DSU colleagues were asking for but was conflicted about situation. I couldn't win.
TA No easy clear solution in my min
NF You sent JB in to reeducate.
TA No. Not reeducate.
NF To be clear where I am going. JB sent in to bring wider awareness. You are saying Cs need to be put right.
TA. No. Didn't know DSU colleagues. No personal interest in this. Trying to
NF You sent JB in to reeducate.
TA No. Not reeducate.
NF To be clear where I am going. JB sent in to bring wider awareness. You are saying Cs need to be put right.
TA. No. Didn't know DSU colleagues. No personal interest in this. Trying to
reach resolution. Complicated, nuances. Trying to help managers.
NF [to note by CG in teams mtg] CG wrote v brief note of mtg. Written 'education' at top. You are saying you didn't say they didn't need to be edcucated. SG wrote down this word but you didn't say it.
NF. No. Not
NF [to note by CG in teams mtg] CG wrote v brief note of mtg. Written 'education' at top. You are saying you didn't say they didn't need to be edcucated. SG wrote down this word but you didn't say it.
NF. No. Not
TA [not NF] No. Not my language.
NF Account of mtg - you don't say c anxieties of nurses bringing complaint.
TA These are high level notes. SG shared concerns. I was trying to understand concerns and not ix at this point.
NF Account of mtg - you don't say c anxieties of nurses bringing complaint.
TA These are high level notes. SG shared concerns. I was trying to understand concerns and not ix at this point.
NF You had read letter
TA yes
NF You don't mention RH conduct described in letter
TA No. This mtg was to discuss concerns of theatre team re use of letter - 'petition' in their words.
NF [reads] TA saying unclear at this stage re driver of concerns. Wasn't this clear at the stage
TA yes
NF You don't mention RH conduct described in letter
TA No. This mtg was to discuss concerns of theatre team re use of letter - 'petition' in their words.
NF [reads] TA saying unclear at this stage re driver of concerns. Wasn't this clear at the stage
TA I was unclear what incident had happened. RH had been using CR for years.
NF Did you establish what the trigger was
TA Not at that point. Theatre manager said RH had used facilities for 4 years with no complaints/concerns. I had the letter - was trying to draw the two together
NF Did you establish what the trigger was
TA Not at that point. Theatre manager said RH had used facilities for 4 years with no complaints/concerns. I had the letter - was trying to draw the two together
in my own mind.
NF [reads] You say here c reports that RH stopped taking medication. Was that a trigger.
TA Not in my mind. Theatre managers hadn't heard that. Private person who keeps self to self.
NF Is it that the trigger for concern is that RH had stopped taking medication
NF [reads] You say here c reports that RH stopped taking medication. Was that a trigger.
TA Not in my mind. Theatre managers hadn't heard that. Private person who keeps self to self.
NF Is it that the trigger for concern is that RH had stopped taking medication
and so appeared more masculine than previously.
TA That wasn't in my mind. I had the letter, didn't know how info had materialised and theatre team hadn't heard RH discuss that.
[Counsel Ppl are keeping getting bounced out/trying to join. J asking to pass this on]
TA That wasn't in my mind. I had the letter, didn't know how info had materialised and theatre team hadn't heard RH discuss that.
[Counsel Ppl are keeping getting bounced out/trying to join. J asking to pass this on]
TA reasonable q as to why now given that RH had used cr for years.
NF But a serious concern. Might be true. How do we react.
TA I was trying to understand what specifically had happened, allegation? and if so what and by whom. What is that conduct matter.
NF But a serious concern. Might be true. How do we react.
TA I was trying to understand what specifically had happened, allegation? and if so what and by whom. What is that conduct matter.
NF [c RH pausing medication.] You said team didn't think this accurate as hadn't heard RH discuss. You wrote this and it remains your recollection?
TA Yes
NF [to docs] Written much closer to mtg that your statement. Nothing there c RH pausing meds to try for baby
TA Yes
NF [to docs] Written much closer to mtg that your statement. Nothing there c RH pausing meds to try for baby
TA Notes not verbatim. Management mtg I make quick notes. When asked to reflect that was my recollection of the meeting.
NF [to docs] July 24 You talk c 15/4 mtg. [reads] Andrew couldn't attend. Concern c impact of petition on RH. Balancing needs of staff. RH had advised
NF [to docs] July 24 You talk c 15/4 mtg. [reads] Andrew couldn't attend. Concern c impact of petition on RH. Balancing needs of staff. RH had advised
c stopping med to get partner pregnant and this was trigger for concern.
TA I was repeating the concern. That was concern that was raised.
NF What did it mean theatre management staff didn't think this to be accurate.
J Not the witness' notes.
TA I was repeating the concern. That was concern that was raised.
NF What did it mean theatre management staff didn't think this to be accurate.
J Not the witness' notes.
NF This appears now. What does it mean. Did someone say it to you.
TA Management mtg, not formal/typed. I've never met RH. They didn't appear it was accurate, they said RH private person.
NF Have you deduced from that that you didn't think it was therefore accurate.
TA Management mtg, not formal/typed. I've never met RH. They didn't appear it was accurate, they said RH private person.
NF Have you deduced from that that you didn't think it was therefore accurate.
J [asks also]
TA Yes, I deduced from that.
NF [reads] c TA saying needed wider training.
J time for a break. How long?
NF Possibly another hour.
J Break for ten minutes.
[Ends]
TA Yes, I deduced from that.
NF [reads] c TA saying needed wider training.
J time for a break. How long?
NF Possibly another hour.
J Break for ten minutes.
[Ends]
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