Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will be tweeting the afternoon session of day 8 of evidence rom the hearing of Ms B Hutchison & others v County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust being held at Newcastle Employment Tribunal.
The expected start time is 2pm.

The previous session is:
x.com/tribunaltweets…

Our full coverage including all abbrevs is here tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/eight-nurses…

We report what we hear in good faith but do not provide a verbatim record of proceedings.

The next witness is theatre manager Tracy Wainwright (TW).

J Also received yr email and attachment but not opened it yet. Tracy Wainwright is next [affirms and organises witness table]

SC Have we done the affirmation?
J Yes
SC Turn to p130, your witness statement. In para 13 you want to add re 28 Dec mtg want to add Jody ?Robertson

SC In para 21, u say u have read the allegation but isnt how u recorded it. Shld it read "I may have heard it"
TW It shld say "I knew of"
SC Confirms signature and accuracy. Please wait there.

NF About nursing bands being sep from HR?
TW Yes
NF Became theatre man 7 yrs ago

Yes
NF Previously clin team lead
Yes
NF Are u an operational manager
TW I'm a band 7 clin lead for teams in theatre and involved in some clin team mgmt. Manage over 170 staff, shared with band 6s and 7s across various hospitals

[137 staff]
TW We share betwn the 3 over 2 sites
NF How many in DGH
TW Depends on theatre activity
NF Most at DGH?
Yes as more theatres
NF U were sent other evidence by Jane Foster George
TW Yes, shes a band 6 anaes nurse
NF Where's the office? On the plan?
TW Yes

[new bundle]
NF Hold it up and in para ? you say being on shift with JR (Jane ?Robinson, JR)
TW It's not v clear
NF Can u see where theatres are?
TW I've found it [points on the plan]
NF Have u been following evidence so far and read WS
TW Yes

NF Had u managed T staff before
TW Yes. I've worked w them in theatre but only in role since 2018
NF Were u aware where they'd change
TW The lady doing OPD changed in F CR. The other person when he started as M and became F after he'd left theatres and the hospital

NF You describe yr duties. Were u responsible health safety and welfare
TW Yes
NF Safeguarding
TW Everybody is
NF With Rose, used the F CR
Yes
NF Look at the plan, where was yr locker from 2023-5?
TW Here but I dont use it and my clogs go under the bench.

TW I put my clothes there [points] I tend to get changed under the bench
NF Has yr locker moved
TW Always been in the same place
NF By the time of 26 signatories, Rose had been using CR for some time
Yes
NF Had there been a discussion
TW RH came to us a student. We were informed she'd be using the F CR and had been since training and qualifying

TW Believe came from Teeside uni
NF When she started u werent involved in the CR decision
TW No
NF Can u remember when that was, began using CR
TW Sept 2019 when started training
NF Were u told she'd be using CR
SC I'm going to interupt here re timings

J Has there been any evid on this? Jane Shields isnt a claimant
NF When u were in the CR w Rose y'd be close?
Yes
NF U were senior to Rose at this time
Yes
NF U might be familiar w the TITWP
Yes
NF Y've said Rose was introduced as transitioned when started.

TW We were told she was transitioned. Or transisitioning. Not sure which was said.
NF The policy - did you manage Rose as someone who was transitioned
TW I dont understand Q
NF Let's look at the policy and it will be clearer. At 84 under responsibilities [reads re LM

and being supportive] Were u in that role
TW Yes
NF Under privacy [reads re keeping ID private or not and practicalities] Was this part of yr role w RH
TW Yes, if it's written down
NF [reads re changing IDs and need to facilitate] Was this a sitn u managed
J It's a braod Q.
NF I'm trying to be sensitive

NF I'll move on. On p90, a flow chart re transitioning process, you'll need to familiarise yrself to it. As I understand none of this was done by you
TW Not me. I beleive by the uni and matron at the time
NF U took that to be the case
TW I didnt do it
NF Student from 19-22

NF Is a part study and part practical course?
TW Yes, part of time is spent at uni. A lot of theatre time though working alongside the nurses
NF Is there a strict rhythm to work pattern?
TW Yes, alongside the shift pattern when present
NF On p887, do u recognise

these interview notes?
Yes
NF [reads re When were u 1st aware of DSU complaints? and hearing rumblings] On p890, asks re others complaining and u reply no official Cx. Was this about theatre team?
TW No. The theatre team didnt grumble

NF These are yr answers
Yes
NF I specifically asked re Cx by other teams. U say nothing official. Which team other than theatres are u referring to?
TW [long pause] At my level were a lot of grumbles about diff things. No-one has officially complained to me about Rose in CR

TW Not everyone understands transgender issues. U will always het rumblings. It's a really busy dept running 14 OTs.
NF In 2021-2 were rumblings?
TW No recollection. Jody mentioned but I dont remember
NF Do u recall ? Shields
Yes, but no awareness of complaints

TW No recollections of the anaesthetist XX or her husband
NF U had a mtg w Miss Watson, Beckett and JR on 20 Sept 23 on Teams to discuss Cx and issues re sharing the F CR w Rose
Yes
NF It was explained to Miss Bailey and others that Rose had apparently stopped hormones

TW There were rumbles about this. In my mind transitioning meant medically and I wasnt aware of RH taking hormones or not
NF JB has said that RH had publicly said had stopped hormones
TW No-one knew if this was true, but we didnt know

NF [sound poor]
TW That isnt what was said
NF Turn to p274, email y've received in July 23. Miss Smedley addresses HR or theatres. [reads re JB coming to discuss and Miss Watson says thanks. A month later is just theatres and not DSU, saying not got any further but other ppl concerned

Has TW given any advice?
Yes
NF Miss Smedley says agrees needs addressing. Another gap before she writes to all theatres saying has this been sorted. U reply on 22 Sept to say No, certain staff's views wont change w educ or awareness
TW I think so, it's a long time ago

NF U wrote this
TW Yes, I did
NF Arent u saying there's staff of yrs that dont get this
TW Its not what I said. I said dome ppl dont understand transitioning. it doesnt mean they have a problem w it
NF [rereads above] Then u say staff struggle and this member of stff isnt transitioning

TW What staff say outside...staff are struggling she's not transitioning
NF Y're RHs manager
I am
NF Y're not saying there's a rumour but because this staff isnt transitioning
TW I had no evidence but was told this
NF A lot of staff struggle w the CR

TW Many international staff use cubicles as they struggle in front of anyone
NF Rose had stopped hormones and looking more masc
TW We had no evidence and that;s why wanted more advice
NF U disapprove of the rumours
TW I dont but I had no evidence about the issue. Nothing factual.
NF But this is how y're presenting
SC and J: we've covered this

NF U camr up w ideas eg dividers and changing shifts
Yes
NF And u rejected these 3
Yes
NF U said [missed]
TW We'd had no objections in 4.5 yrs. No official Cx by 140 staff
NF But ppl did object
TW DSU staff have left by time theatre staff arrive. If Rose came late the team

wldn work and had no evidence for her to need to move when she wasnt w DSU staff. That's why I said no. They wldnt be there
NF Did u agree w JB they shld change elsewhere
TW Lots of staff go to the toilets and changing cubilces already
NF You said y'd explored other options. Did u do this
Tw [missed]
NF Wld take a building project
Yes

NF Do u recall a meeting w theatre staff being asked if they had a problem?
TW Theatre staff? I dont recall this
NF In yr statement u mention posters in F CR re inclusive changing space, and from NMC. After the DSU complaints
TW Yes

NF On p901, is a Qs grid sent to u as part of resoln procedure Ix. You were asked Qs including about posters
TW Yes
NF Under the response re who put them up and actions taken
TW I beleive put up by nurse staff who were upset by the grumblings. I cld guess who
NF Was it investigated as pot misconduct

TW They were taken down straight away
NF This chain incl DSU and theatres. Issue continued thru 2024, did u or any other managers offer Rose an indiv changing space
TW We asked her if she wanted to ?
NF Not a sep space out of zone of contact
TW No. As were using CR at different tim

TW Yes I was involved in Rose using a diff space later. A room w/out a shower or toilet that we scrabbled tog for Rose.
NF whose decision was this
TW I dont know. I told Rise she cld no longer use the CR for the time being. I beleive came from the ADO but not sure.

TW Our assoc Dir of Operations - Owen Carrell I've only met once. In nursing. We have a service manager for nursing Michele Todd, a general manager and then operational managers.
NF U mention operational manager, a term used by JB earlier

NF If an estates Q that falls w/in operational?
I would think so, I'm very focussed on theatres
NF So communicating a decision that'd been made
Yes
NF In Summer 2024, KD was due to have surgery and came to you. I beleive this wasnt being brought into this
NF It was intimate surgery

SC This was withdrawn as a issue
J Why are you discussing this then?
NF I will use in my submissions
J Are u going to come into this re JB? [discussing pages to read which people are reading ]

J It's a matter of credibility so let's hear. But you cant explore further. Put the Q then move on.
NF This was gynae surgery, intimate surgery.
[J intervenes] Go to the witness bundle, p39. Please read paras 35-46 [long pause whilst reading]

NF In the supplemental bundle go to p58. You see there.. [witness is in the wrong place]
NF An email from u to Miss Clommet? giving your account of this
TW Yes
NF In Summer 24, u knew KD had raised a Cx
No I didnt
NF U say to Miss Cobber? Is it just Rose u dont want

NF [reads I cant believe what I was asked and was angry. KD mentions the court case
Yes
NF U were angry as u thought she was challenging about the F CR
YW That's not true
NF I have no further Qs
TW Can I just say. There's a lot of untruth in this statement by KD

J We normally have a break now and we'll need to think about any Qs for you. You remain under oath and can't speak about the case or your evidence. We'll call for you in 10 minutes or later.

SESSION ENDS

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