Thread by @tribunaltweets

This is the second morning session from day 7 of evidence from the hearing of Ms B Hutchison and others v County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust, being held at Newcastle Employment Tribunal.

NF I have found the handwritten notes, misattributed re SG statement. [to SG statement] Can you confirm this is your handwritten note.
TA Yes
NF Back to mtg. You identified BH
TA SG identified. Collective resolution.
TA I was trying to bring it into process. Stage one usually

with managers. Stage 2 would be independent ix officer.
NF Who would take it in stage 2. Has already got to M Smith.
TA Stage 2 independent ix.
NF Who
TA Care would appoint.
NF Who has custody of process. Raised. MS forwarded to you. You are to give advice.

TA Helen ? - dir nursing would be for leadership to do.
NF For you to decide
TA No, for me to feed back into process. Find spokesperson and pass to care group leadership team.
NF That is what you passed on.
TA yes
J Please keep answers short. You passed it on.
TA Yes

NF BH should be aware as spokesperson
TA No, cos formal complaint hadn't been started. Team referred in evidence that they didn't know procedure or how to raise concern. Process hadn't been followed.
J Who did you think needed that awareness
TA Signatories and management team

NF [reads] I was aware LSmedley ... Her role
TA HR advisor and supports colleagues
NF Were you aware Smedley had reached a view
TA No. no concerns raised to me and she was there to support
J No awareness of views?
TA No

NF [to docs] Email from Lesley Smedley (LS) you had received in Feb. [reads c some exaggeration of RH parading about in her underwear.
TA She had put it in an email. Her words.
NF But betrays something about her approach to what these f employees are saying
J Did you put that

yesterday
NF Not this point. LS was there to support both sides.
TA LS would support from welfare, sickness aspect etc.
NF Transcript accurate?
TA Can't confirm.
NF Have you listened to mtg recording
TA yes
NF did you read along to recording?
TA y

NF Identify any errors?
TA That's difficult. Wouldn't have recording of my own. Wouldn't secretly record mtg. Some areas sound different from my recollection- can't confirm accuracy or not.
NF [ to notes made after mtg] Handwritten note
TA Not on this ocassion
NF Not full or

accurate.
TA Absolutely. Not verbatim.
NF Would you agree it contains material not said within mtg all
TA What do you mean
NF Reads c BH abused as child
TA Can't correlate between transcript. That was what I recall was said.
NF Your position is that was said.

TA position is that I recall
NF Reads c BH saying should RH change in disabled toilet.
TA Nobody should be forced to change in disabled.
NF But you recall this. And BH using male pronouns for RH. But if you hear recording see BH minimising using pronouns. This portrays BH

as dominating meeting and characterises her as unreasonable and even transphobic
TA I haven't said BH transphobic. This is my account of mtg. Never met BH, hadn't formed views of her.
NF [ to letter of 9/5] [TA reads] This is response to your email of 8/5.
NF So ahead of mtg

you've written to SG. You say, what does good look like as a resolution. What do staff want.
NF Reads - leaving cr while RH there. Team want a safe space where won't be our word against theirs. Nurses should expect you would be fully apprised of their concerns and expect you

to act.
TA They could assume we are trying to get to position to have a resolution for everyone.
NF You came to mtg knowing wouldn't go against policy.
TA No. Trying to get to a solution - v difficult. trying to work with management team to get resolution.
NF mtg described by

you as first stage.
TA Staff were raising concerns. It was called a petition.
NF [reads from TA] My concern was re the petition
TA That's what this recording says. But i also explained this was not my language. I had staff uncomfortable about being approached

NF You criticised...
TA Didn't criticise. Concern. I was concerned about this whole conversation
NF Reads c petition [quickly] Position is not appropriate
TA That's the recording. It's gone off a bit or ;paused or something. In our org we try to support and address concerns

TA I thought staff might feel pressured if the letter/petition was signed by a legal team.
NF Discussion moves to the heart of the matter. Asking why weren't consulted when RH started re the cr.
Someone asks would you feel comfortable taking your clothes off in front of..

NF And you say yes you would, as you are ex armed forces etc.
J Personal q - would you sympathise - for a personal response.
TA I found mtg intimidating. Why would I be asked a personal q. I was there to listen to concerns. Was taken aback.

TA Inappropriate qs to me, mentioning my daughter. Hostile. To me q is would I feel comfortable undressing in front of a TW and that was my answer.
NF Student nurses might be school leaving age. Your response was I would try to understand their concerns.

TA Yes, along lines of what are the concerns. Shouldn't talk c my family.
J Or were they trying to find out if you shared their understanding
TA Recording doesn't show level of what I saw as hostility towards me.
NF To your statement -

NF reads c element of concern c RH behaviour. Hadn't you understood until later that concerns were c RH behaviour
TA Hadn't known c nurse's background
TA Not aware of any specific raised by KD
NF Reads nurse complaint c what RH said.

TA Big mtg, lots of ppl
NF In mtg you talked c your role of protecting trust from legal action
TA Yes, and supporting teams.
NF You said case law makes bio f cr difficult
TA I mentioned case law re manner express concerns and deal safely, and around SSS

TA Wanted colleagues to understand it was complex matter and guidance was at odds. Trying to assure them we were working on it and considering their asks.
NF reads words of Ms Watson c another male member of staff and changing in toilet. In case law this is discrimination

TA Potentially could give rise to that
NF [reads various comments from mtg] in Ms Bradbury c this has been going on for months - various ppl c wanting to come in their uniform, not feeling comfortable changing, etc.

[TA reading doc]
NF You say there is lots of case law, we can't say you get changed over there cos you're different - where do we end with that?
NF Miss Bradbury says you'd think a big org like NHS would have something in place by now.

You say can't
TA Conflicting. This was pre Supreme Court. Trying to work through complexities. In general terms I was aware of Sheffield case, Forstater. I'm not a lawyer. Trying to talk to mtg about how manifest, as can cause harm.
TA Complex area of law. That was the whole

point. And wouldn't be my decision to ask RH to leave cr.
NF Practical terms - easier to provide individual cr for RH rather that signatories.
TA If RH may have said no, didn't want to change somewhere else, that would be difficult ..
J NF Asking practically - numbers game -

TA In practical terms moving one individual would be easier.
J A no-brainer, in US terms
TA But we have more than one TG colleague
J But in this
TA In practical terms would be simple, but things following on - more complicated than that.

NF Reads quickly from ppls' suggestions in mtg. Women can get changed in own cr, a neutral cr. You then say to see f cr so can visualise.
TA Yes
NF You say will try to see RH this week and look at CR to understand
NF You said would look at cr but never did.

TA My intention was to look at cr, and to talk to RH - she may be happy to change elsewhere. But then there was media and an allegation made against me in the media which I was v unhappy about.
J was that why you didn't go to CR

TA Yes, my [missed name, but someone senior] got involved and I .....
J I think we will have a short break
NF I only have a small amount left.

[We return]
NF By end of this mtg you were promising a process
TA Promising to go away and look at matter. Felt compelled to try to do something.
NF You would go away and there would be a local process
TA Needed to speak to care group leadership c what we would do as a Trust.

TA I think I was clear. To try to find solution. To speak to RH and that would be a good solution - or not if RH didn't agree.
NF Perhaps my q not clear. Back to SG letter of 9/5 - SG response to your q re what outcome C seeking was - team have expressed want safe space for

everyone including RH. No clarity as to what outcome would be.
TA Need to speak to ppl, care group team, RH etc. I wasn't care group leader, not in my ability. Andrew and I giving some assurance they were being heard.
NF In interim arrangements made for nurses who didn't

want to share.
TA Allegation made against me re litigation. I stepped back. Helen - lead nurse would take forward along with others.
NF You had no role in resolution procedure
TA No.
J Just one area. You may not be person to help us. Re policy.

J Your remit. Any input into policy
TA No.
J In terms of responsibility for implementing - where does it fall.
TA Policy has number of ratification routes. I would implement whatever the policy suggested.
J Every manager with staff under them has responsibility

to implement policy.
TA Yes, but we would help and advise, especially here with complicated situation
J Out of the witnesses to follow, who would have most insight into policy.
TA Ms Bailey.
J Did you, or did anyone you know, go for legal advice
TA Yes, around time of concern

TA And took legal advice re policy
J Before mtg?
TA Yes
SC No re examination
J Thank you TA, you may leave.
NF Andrew Moore is next witness
J Back at 1.45
[ends]

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