Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will shortly (est. start time 13:45) be live tweeting the afternoon session from day 7 of evidence from the hearing of Ms B Hutchison & others v County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust being held at Newcastle Employment Tribunal.

Our full coverage can be found at
https://

-v-county-durham-and
We report what we hear in good faith but do not provide a verbatim record of proceedings.tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/eight-nurses

Abbreviations:
C/Ns - Claimants - the Darlington nurses
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for Claimants
MP - Michael Phillips, solicitor for claimants
PS - Pavel Stroilov, C’s solicitor, preliminary hearing
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust

SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
J/REJ - Regional Employment Judge Robertson
EJ - Employment Judge
ET - Employment Tribunal
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
DMH/H/Hospital - Darlington Memorial Hospital

More Abbreviations:
TG - Transgender
TW - Transwoman
CR/CF - Changing room or changing facilities
SSS - Single Sex Spaces
WS - Witness Statement
WA - Whatsapp
CLC - Christian Legal Centre
SEAL - Surgical Elective Admission Lounge
DSU - Day Surgery Unit
EQA/EA -Equality Act 2010

CG - Claire Gregory, Ward Manager
SS - Siobhan Sinclair, Housekeeper & Well-being officer, at DMH, now retired
SW - Sue Williams, HR at Trust
TA - Tracy Atkinson, HR at Trust
AT - Andrew Thacker, Director of Workforce and Organisational Development
DP - David Purdue, Joint Regional Chief Nurse for North East and Yorkshire
GH - Gill Hunt, Interim Joint Regional Chief Nurse for NHS England in North East and Yorkshire
ST - Stephen Twist, Darlington Trust’s Audit and Governance Committee, an elected Public Governor
RS - Professor Richard Scothon, Chairman of Trust
AM - Andrew Moore, Head of Workforce Experience at Trust

Still waiting for session to start

J we’ll hear from Andrew Moore next.

NF Contents of statements - I want to pick up a few points
Can you give an example of staff network groups?
AM around protected characteristics eg disability

NF transitioning in workplace policy. Let’s look at that. What is meant by ‘ownership’?
AM they’re developed collectively . Subject expert then go through a chain up to board .

AM Pat Winter did research re legislation. review then up the line.
NF is anyone the ‘owner’ of the policy? Or responsibility?
AM it’s sat within the workforce directorate leadership

NF there’s a ref to EHRC guidance? How familiar were you?
AM I’d check with Gillian.

NF these are pages from claimants. P 271 what is this?
AM my twitter account. A personal account. The image is for a campaign 100 Faces re protected characteristic journeys.
Page 2021/2 Pride messages.
AM they’re retweets. Had an interest as the Trust wanted to introduce the Rainbow badge at the time.

p 277?
AM Colleagues must have searched my account re references for women.
NF LGBT+ is a network group
AM we also have an organisational account.
NF your title is Head of Workforce Experience what’s the difference to others?

AM a range including talent management and including EDI.
Andrew Thacker is our Director and a range of others.
NF Gillian Bailey reports to you?
AM yes. I have 2 workforce experience managers also but not in that chain of command.
NF in the management structure, how many roles are there in the Directorate below Ms Bailey?
AM workforce experience officer one role.

AM the officer looks after EDI and also does organisation development.
NF so for a grievance , is that role below Ms Bailey the person who would advise on process?
AM yes

NF EDI and TITWP policy ? is it your team who decides what’s in the policy?
AM - yes make sure up to date and check
NF if a policy wrong or causing harm, would your team deal with it?
AM they’d look into it yes.
NF compliance too?
AM yes they’d certainly look re any change.

NF you sit on the health and wellbeing steering group. Any crossover with health, safety and welfare?
AM yes
NF did you yourself have any knowledge of the H & S law?
AM I have an HR background but it doesn’t fall within my portfolio

NF there doesn’t seem to be one on women
AM at the time we focused on other groups. We have asked for chairs including for a women’s group, but from an intersectionality pov women are in the other groups as we have a 80 % women .

NF your policy permitted the use of a SS CR on basis of GI if a person informed the trust they intended to transition . They would choose.

NF that person’s biological sex was not female. Anyone not wishing to share would have to go elsewhere. The policy was one-sided.

AM I inherited this policy.
NF they were the ones to be displaced if they objected?
AM I didn’t develop it.
NF were you aware of obligation of employer to assess risk? Did you see any record of this?
AM I didn’t

NF did you ask yourself that question? Have we assessed the risk? Please read p 79
these female employees were raising a complaint about use of a space by a male and behaviour, causing them distress and having to modify their behaviour.
AM I understand colleagues’ concerns
NF Did we consider the risk of a biological man in a changing room?
AM the rules from NHS and government were applied and it’s a complex issue and there will be different views.

NF might it even if ‘correctly applied’ policy constitute any risk? It does say trans and NB staff - but also says other staff should be considered.
AM policy leads look at the detail
NF is that Ms Winter?
AM yes , before I started.

NF in May 2024 Ms Bailey emailed you some research. It cites various sources. You reply - the way it’s been approached is what’s available in line with guidance. What do you mean?
AM that’s the latest that Gillian has researched. Gillian talked about some language needs refreshing but in principle yes .

J - note to observers- there’s a gentleman observing - we can see you please switch off your camera we can see you.

NF Ms Bailey’s advice you forwarded on. The same guidance compared with another date is the same, she says ‘also see p 69’ which contains paragraph ‘the trust is also required to understand circumstances in which a person may be excluded from a SS space’.
That is what this complaint is about, isn’t it?

AM 24th May meeting I wanted to check in with the subject expert. To do to a resolution where we could investigate events.
NF My question was about the circumstances when a person could be excluded from a single sex space. What were the ones you thought?
AM (inaudible)
NF Was anything put in writing?
AM not that I recall

NF a reference to guidance withdrawn no ref to ECHR
AM I just use the advice Gillian gives me
NF - there’s an email 2024 ‘can we prioritise review’?
AM we’d already started reviewing the policy
NF the following year - there doesn’t seem to have been any motivation behind the review re alarm and distress
AM no, Gillian was already on top of it.

NF The effect it was having on a group of female employees ?
AM I’m not saying it was good enough, no.
NF history of this policy. You don’t mention March 2025 which was applied for about 5 weeks. Were you involved?
AM I didn’t help prepare it. As Gillian’s line manager she would have updated me in one to ones.
NF what does that mean?
AM she would discuss but I’m not a policy expert
NF surely it’s not the first draft that goes out?
AM it goes through review group.
NF did you see the working version of the policy?
AM not that I recall

SC can I check the relevance of the March 2025 policy ?
J what is the relevance?
NF evidence of the Trust’s approach and mindset and actions.
NF Ms Atkinson said she might need to get your team involved previously. You asked Ms Bailey to get involved and advise .

NF We see Ms Smedley saying asking for advice.
AM Tracey said she wanted support. Gillian has expertise
NF Any chance of this being dealt with by a higher level eg you?
Rumours of concerns. Did you know what Ms Bailey advised in 2023?
AM her understanding of current legislation and policy

NF did you oversee any advice being given?
AM No
NF you say ‘I understand the matter had been resolved’. Do you have any understanding of what the resolution was?
AM No
NF then 2024 more issues arise . In a message sent to you, Ms Smedley says some exaggeration about Rose parading in underwear. Other email?
AM don’t recall

NF so this was the second time you became aware of problems. Did you look into it?
AM No
NF did you see what advice Ms Bailey gave at this point? Did you have any input , analyse or approve?
AM no

NF ms Bailey says here ‘long term solution should be different’.
AM that should go to workplace management. Through the chain.
NF then 6 weeks on, employees taking collective action. Had they not done that, would any action had been taken.

NF you were copied in to email chain. 28 March Ms Atkinson writing about a letter, and then your next involvement later April about need to organise a meeting. Which you didn’t attend.
AM I didn’t in the end.

NF You here talk about a review of facilities.
AM important as we didn’t know about facilities side of things. Also to talk to Alison Laidlaw and Carol Birch who also sits on strategic diversity group. She’s on facilities procurement.
NF talking about joining a group to look at changing rooms. This is ordinary pace work, not a response to a situation?
AM needed to be done even though outside my area.

NF reply from Ms Birch as this also fits with plan for sustainable travel. What would this review achieve?
AM that all colleagues would be comfortable where they changed.
NF shouldn’t have this been done with the TITWP policy. Female colleagues affected directly by TITWP policy.
AM yes.

J Short break for 10 minutes

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