Thread by @tribunaltweets

We'll return at 2pm for the afternoon session of day 1 of David Toshack's employment tribunal against GeoAmey Ltd. He alleges he was dismissed from a police custody officer role due to his gender critical beliefs - claiming harassment, discrimination and indirect discrimination.

This morning's proceedings can be read here:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/2016440…

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Abbreviations:
DT/C - David Toshack, Claimant
DH - David Hay, KC, for claimant
MG - Margaret Gribbon, solicitor for claimant
GA/R - GeoAmey Ltd, Respondent, a British company specialising in prisoner transport
MM - Michael McLaughlin, counsel for respondent

J - Employment Judge Amanda Jones, sitting alone

(P)CO - (Police) custody officer
ITC - initial training course
CH - Chris Hutton, course trainer
SW - Stephan Weir, trainee
SH - Sarah Harvey, Safeguarding Lead

T(G) - Trans(gender)
PP - preferred pronouns

BITWB - born in the wrong body

The Scottish accents heard are quite strong so I will do my very best, but I do miss some of the words spoken.

We return
DH We were talking about the PER form and to look at an example in the bundle (Person Escort Record). Look at p451-2. Is that a sample?
DT Yes
DH We can see a no of components w grey nos. At fig 2 it says personal details. It refs sex
DT Yes

DH Fig 6 details name of prisoner
DT Yes
DH Name, surname and forenames. And iDing number
DT Yes
DH Section 7 is blank lines. You mentioned "if it isnt written down it didnt happen" is this where u write
DT Yes
DH You had suggested using name instead of pronouns

DT Yes, I wld put in Sec 7
DH Was there a discussion re entering sex on the form
DT Not in the dismissal hearing, not that I recall
DH Then CHs suggestion re not enough time, what did u think
DH I thought it weird and it wldnt take much longer to write than he or she

DH Would a prisoner have access to and see this form?
DT I dont believe so
DH You mentioned re the meeting of Jan 7th and the HR officer contribution, can u recollect egs of when she interjected.
DT She'd back up what Chris's points. I cant remember exactly

DH This may come up later, do u recollect discussion of distress of a prsioner and pronouns
DT I dont think so
DH ANy suggestion by either person at mtg that yr conduct in training room had been aggressive
DT Absol not
DH Or unacceptable?
DT [cant hear]

DH Do you remember CH using the phrase belief re why you cldnt work there
DT He used stong belief. My response was I said my Christian beliefs. He was taken aback. He seemed to be denying it was my religious beliefs.
DH Did he say anything else
DT I said I respect yr right to make this decision, but I htink y're losing a good person

DH Re the mtg tone, when you were told you werent to be employed how did u feel
DT Disbelief and shock
DH Was there much more said
DT Just procedural about getting your stuff
DH Did u get formal ? about yr dismissal
DT I was told about pay

DH How long did the mtg take before u were told you were dismissed
DT Hard to judge. Maybe 10-15 mins
DH Were you shown..were there any documents in the room u were referred to
DT I dont think so. Just handwritten notes being taken

DH [new page] This doc from SPS -guidance on TG prisoners. Was this doc or similar referred to in the meeting?
DT [I think said no]
DH The HR officer made notes?
DT Correct
DH Turn to p571. This doc are typed notes of this mtg of Jan 7 2025. Did u take these?

DT No. I took no notes
DH Were you given an opportunity to look over the notes or any records of the meeting?
DT No. And I've not seen this document before today
DH I mentioned a women in custody leaflet before and yr mtg w SH. Was issuing this leaflet mentioned on 7 Jan?

DT No
DH At the conclusion of this mtg, yr belongings..
DT Still in the classroom. [To recover them] I had to go back to the hotel to change out of my uniform. I had to get my keys to do that. I cant remember exactly but I had to sheepishly walk in front of the class to get

my phone and keys
DH So 2 occasions
DT Yes. I'd had a lift in the morning so I had to speak to Stephan and walked out w him.
DH U got yr remaining stuff from Mr Weir who took it out of the room
DT Yes. My colleagues were still in the room. I was embarrassed

DH U got yr keys, changed out of uniform which u returned. And then u got yr items from Mr Weir
DT His possessions were in the hire car. We walked round together and I gave them to him. He asked what happened and I told him
DH How much detail
DT I said ?? and he said I cant believe it

DH In the immed aftermath of being sacked, as is yr phrase?
DT I phoned my wife and said I'd been sacked. She cldnt belive it and thought I was joking. I said I'd phone her again later
DH Was anything else in yr mind
DT I was worried about paying bills and impact on looking for another job

DH On p578, you received a letter confirming your dismissal dated 14 Jan
DT Yes
DH The last para advised u cld appeal this decision and how to go about this
DT Yes, I did appeal
DH This document is yr appeal?
DT Yes
DH Who prepared this letter
DT The FSU

DH When did u contact the FSU
DT Within a few days or week of the 7th
DH They assisted u with the letter and dont divulge any legal advice, but what assistance did they give
DT The format, drafting reasons and grounds for appeal
DH The chapter headings incl grounds

DH Grounds 1 and 2 and next steps. Is that what u mean by grounds?
DT Yes
DH Factual background section sets out a lot of detail. What's the source of this
DT I gave them an initially a broad idea of what happened and later more detail.
DH So within a few days of Jan 7
DT Yes

DH How
DT By email
DH Did u submit it yrself
DT They drafted and I sent it. I read it first.
DH Re factual background section, are u satisfied that what is in these pages accurately covers what you told the FSU?
DT [reading] Yes, I'm happy with it and the detail

DH A few pages on, yr appeal was acknowledged on Jan 23rd
DT Yes
DH Then an email change between yrself and Ms Pollock about how the appeal wld be conducted
DT
DH She seems to be encouraging an in person appeal but you didnt take this recommendation

DT [cldnt hear]
DH On p587-9, the appeal outcome later dated 18th Feb. The manager was John Sinclair
DT Yes
DH Within this letter, on p587, is a heading factual background response. It refs yr own factual background. Then there's a conflicting version of events.

DH To what extent do you agree with the counternarrative in JS's outcome letter? You can take your time to read it again.
DT There's a bit in there on p588 re you made a statement in an aggressive manner. I dispute this. Or that I wldnt search a TG. Again it says aggressive manner

DT That's a lie. I wld treat ppl equally fairly and w respect. I had a simple workaround of calling them by their name
DH Was it a hard or electronic copy u received
DT Elec followed by hard copy
DH Anything else attached or enclosed
DT No, I dont think so
DH This is an email from SH to JS and Ms P

DH Refs during SH's presentation. U didnt receive this email but it looks like SH provided a statement during the appeal, which is v similar to the factual background. Did u see her statement prior to u receiving the appeal outcome letter?
DT No

DH Did u see this doc during the Jan 7 mtg
DT No
DH Did JS give u the opportunity to comment on your version of events during the mtg of Jan 7th 2025
DT No

DH On p589, letter headed ? JS says yr not being dismissed for yr beleifs but because u cldnt have fulfilled the duties and say u wldnt use the pronouns. What distinction do u make between yr belief and needing to use PP? Is there any distinction
DT I dont understand

DH They're saying it was cos u wldnt comply w policy
DT If I'd been a bit more switched on I cld have asked which belief they were talking about.
DH U then took steps to raise this tribunal proceedings
DT Yes
DH How did u feel about JS outcomes

DT It didnt surprose me that didnt back down. Felt they were making stuff up eg being aggressive. They were trying to make me worse than I actually was
DH Were u asked for any explanation about any posts on social media
DT No

DH SW will be a witness later. I asked u about yr discussions immed after dismissal. Did u know him previously
DT No. I've been in touch by messaging and we've met up a few times
DH Have u discussed what happened on Jan 7th
DT Naturally
DH Why
DT We talk about how his work is going but what happened naturally comes up in conversation

DH You mentioned yr concern re getting work. What did u do about getting further work
DT I had a 2 week course coming up and I applied for different jobs.
DH During this time, You mentioned yr wife and children. Does yr wife work
DT Yes

DH So you had some income. Re looking for work, here's an email [reads re Fife council team sent Feb 25]
DT Yes
DH That wasnt successful. Here's another Fife council applic dated MAy 15th for roadworker maintenance that wasnt successful. And May 2nd was an unsuccessful seasonal waste job

[lost a tweet]

DT Discussing applications to Fife and a tax free income. We could survive on my wife's income but not thrive. I got involved in church voluntary work which led to paid work w members of the church
DH Gardening work?
DT Yes
J There's some that's redacted / needs redacting

DH This is about being a sole trader. Did u become self employed?
DT Yes, towards end of April. I got more and more work
DH Do u have a seperate bank account?
DT I've set up a business account
DH I'll have to talk to the clerk re redaction, does this relate to

DH u setting up a business account
DT Yes
DH If we're looking at a compensatory reward..how do u normally receive payment from clients
DT Vast majority are cash
DH This doc is headed and relates to yr income. Who prepared this
DT I did on my sons laptop. I used the records from my phone.

DH The date relates to when work was done or paid
DT When paid
DH [discusses columns] Total income was approx £6000?
DT Yes
DH There may be a few BACS payments rather than cash? We have a copy of yr bank statement and entries highlighted. Are these work y've done as a self

DH employed gardener
DT Yes
DH Were these payments included in the list y've given us
DT They shld be
DH From April to Dec 2025, y've listed the income y've made. Do u have any expenditure?
DT I've always had gardening equipment. I have a large hatchback that I use for transport. Most of my jobs are a few mins away re fuel.

DT If a vehicle is used for both business and personal use it's v complicated and such small distances.
DH So the grand total is sums received, and is yr bottom line essentially as v little deductions
DT Yes

DH We have some payslips from yr time with the R on these pages. I dont think they'll be disputed. On p610-623 we see pay slips
DT Yes
DH From April to Nov as a reservist. Have you done any more reservist work
DT No

DH Hypothetically, thinking back to yr work w the R. It was FT work and permanent?
Yes
DH Did u think about how long y'd work there
DT I was going to give it 12 months at least and if I liked it would stay there until I retired
DH what age were u thinking of retiring

DT When no longer fit for work
DH GA had automatic enrolment for pension after 3 months. Would u have enrolled early before the 3 months
DT I hadnt thought of it. I certainly ?? like the Army and at Sky
DH Looking at a GA payslip...

DH I asked u about a hire car provided to you. Did u have it for the weekends?
DT Yes
DH Did u get petrol for going home and to training events?
DT Yes
DH The layers can deal w this as we progress. Just give me a moment please

DH U received a bounty payment of £2K in 2025. Were u expecting to get the same in 2026?
DT [discusses reserve bounty work and needing to do 2 weeks away at least] No, I'm not intending on getting it again
DH The schedule of loss prep by yr solicitors is on p264-5. You provided this evidence to her?
DT Yes

DH I will just check my notes. I seem to have come in under budget. Oh, I'm grateful that my colleague has drawn my attention to that being the counter argument

J Wld u like a break. I'd rather get going again today.

MM I'd rather start early tomorrow. MLF said I cld have his extra hours!
J Will you be ok with 2 hours?
MM Yes
J Let's start tomorrow at 9.30 am. You mustn't discuss the case with yr wife or anyone else, nor look at social media DT.

Court adjourned

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