Thread by @ermbates

#StateCaptureInquiry Today's @StateCaptureCom proceedings have begun. Matters concerning former Minister of Finance, Des van Rooyen, are set down for today. Van Rooyen is also scheduled to cross-examine Lungisa Fuzile, former Director General of @TreasuryRSA, for an hour.

#StateCaptureInquiry Advocate Thabani Masuku SC is standing on behalf on Van Rooyen. He describes correspondence from inquiry representatives and the "unusual procedure" proposed for today, namely that Van Rooyen testify first and then have leave to cross-examine Fuzile.

#StateCaptureInquiry "We can see no procedural justification for adopting the approach suggested by my learned friend. We certainly think it is unfair," says Masuku for Van Rooyen. He has referred to the @StateCaptureCom and says Fuzile has not - as yet - completed his evidence.

#StateCaptureInquiry Deputy Chief Justice Raymond Zondo responds to Masuku now and says in terms of sequence it may not be appropriate for the @StateCaptureCom to follow the process in trials in courts.

#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says it may be that she or he who wants to cross-examine another witness, who has already testified or begun their testimony, should first subject themselves to that process.

#StateCaptureInquiry Among the issues Masuku has raised: (i.) absent precedence on having an implicated person testify at a commission before being granted leave to cross-examine, and (ii.) fairness. "What is unfair about it?" Zondo asks.

[EARLIER] #StateCaptureInquiry In reply Masuku earlier, Zondo said that the request as to the sequence of proceedings with regard to Van Rooyen's appearance and cross-examination of Fuzile emanated from him.

#StateCaptureInquiry Masuku for Van Rooyen refers to the @StateCaptureCom's rules. Masuku asserts that Fuzile's evidence is incomplete until Van Rooyen's cross-examination of him is complete, as there are material disputes.

#StateCaptureInquiry "Chair, I urge you. I didn't think that this would be an issue to occupy your time," says Masuku. Zondo reads the eighth rule of the process. Zondo says he reads the rule as indicating the sequence of witnesses is at the discretion of the Chairperson.

Masuku says: the question should be what is the unfairness in the normal practice of cross-examination. What is it we are protecting here?
Zondo: the debate we are having is for me to understand your submissions and you to understand what my thinking is.

#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says there may be unfairness in that Masuku was given certain documents quite late (this after he called Advocate Garth Hulley SC of the @StateCaptureCom around 16:45 yesterday) and indicates it is important to be fair to Van Rooyen.

#StateCaptureInquiry Masuku says it will make things proceed faster if Van Rooyen can cross-examine Fuzile first, and that way Fuzile doesn't have to first sit through Van Rooyen's other evidence.

[JUST IN] #StateCaptureInquiry Zondo grants Van Rooyen leave to cross-examine Fuzile first. Thereafter, Van Rooyen will give evidence. Zondo says this decision is informed by the content of a letter and the timing of correspondence (papers) from the inquiry to Van Rooyen.

#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo adjourns for 30 minutes.

#StateCaptureInquiry Proceedings have resumed. Advocate Kgomosoane Mathipa (who has an LLM from Harvard, according to the page below) will cross-examine Fuzile for Van Rooyen.

#StateCaptureInquiry There is some preliminary discussion of witness statements, file and page numbers. "You have already indicated that you had a very good relationship with Mr Van Rooyen which dates back many years, am I correct?" asks Mathipa.

#StateCaptureInquiry Mathipa confirms Fuzile's affidavit. Mathipa refers to Fuzile's report of "mutual respect" between the two for each other's roles. Mathipa says, "In 36 you actually give examples to illustrate the quality of interaction you had with him, right."

#StateCaptureInquiry Mathipa: Now, let me check with you in these interactions that you've had with him, specifically at National Treasury where you say he had the role of a mediator, was he polite and constructive was he only polite and constructive to you or other people too?

#StateCaptureInquiry "This is prior to his arrival at Treasury as Minister, he was cordial to everyone," says Fuzile. He emphasises this is PRIOR to Van Rooyen's arrival at National Treasury. Mathipa moves to events of 9 December 2015.

#StateCaptureInquiry Mathipa says Fuzile said (this in reference to Fuzile's prior evidence) he received a message from former Minister of Finance Nhlanhla Nene to say "the axe has fallen" and Fuzile then changed direction and went to Nene.

[NOT VERBATIM AND SUMMARISED] #StateCaptureInquiry Mathipa says to Fuzile: you then say you received a call from Enoch Godongwana to say you are now going to receive a Gupta minister, and likely accompanied by advisers. You say you were perplexed.

#StateCaptureInquiry Mathipa asks if he then knew Van Rooyen was the new Minister of Finance. Fuzile says he did, and he was "perplexed to say the least" concerns the "suggestion that I was going to get a Gupta minister" and accompanied by advisers of Indian descent.

#StateCaptureInquiry "I still thought, could it really be? Right, because he went on, if you read my own statement, to say if I want to confirm this is to check with Dr Ramontja," says Fuzile.

#StateCaptureInquiry Fuzile indicates says he had "a very great rapport" with him. Mathipa asks if this changed Fuzile's view of Van Rooyen. He says it did not. "The night was gonna pass and the morning was gonna come and he was going to arrive at the Treasury," says Fuzile.

[NOT VERBATIM] #StateCaptureInquiry Fuzile: That was the first moment, first when I got to the Union Buildings. The first time I met the advisor then I got to wonder now, 'Oh, okay.' Perhaps there is some truth in what I was told.

#StateCaptureInquiry Mathipa refers to Fuzile's statement once more on calling Van Rooyen and hosting a call with Phumza Macanda, who was then a communications director for the National Treasury, and Van Rooyen - as incoming minister - should consider issuing a statement.

#StateCaptureInquiry Mathipa raises Macanda's testimony on Van Rooyen's appointment.

#StateCaptureInquiry Mathipa refers to the call with Fuzile, Macanda and Van Rooyen about Van Rooyen's appointment and the matter of a statement. Macanda says Van Rooyen had a statement. Fuzile says Van Rooyen rejected their offer to draft a statement.

#StateCaptureInquiry "He had his own statement that he issued [...] I'm not denying he had a statement," says Fuzile. "It's a moot point," said Fuzile moments earlier on Van Rooyen having (his own) statement and the advice to issue a statement.

#StateCaptureInquiry "The issuance of a statement that the minister does on his own in a corner somewhere," says Fuzile. He has asserted Van Rooyen didn't know how things were done in National Treasury. Things in this sitting are getting discernibly heated, if you ask me.

#StateCaptureInquiry "He's explaining the context of what he wrote," says Zondo. Fuzile says, "You may not like it, but I am explaining it and it's the truth, Mr Mathipa."

Mathipa asks Fuzile if he "admits" he didn't tell the @StateCaptureCom that Van Rooyen said he had prepared a statement. "Well, there are many things I did not tell the commission," says Fuzile with a shrug. "Why did you not?" asks Mathipa. "I may have forgotten," Fuzile replies.

#StateCaptureInquiry "You might consider focusing on important issues before your time runs out," Zondo tells Mathipa. "Yes, I'm going to do that," he replies. He says Fuzile did not tell the @StateCaptureCom that Van Rooyen read out a statement and asked for Fuzile's comments.

#StateCaptureInquiry "I don't even know what you are talking about," says Fuzile. Zondo rephrases the question. "When we arrived at the Union Buildings and he came I don't actually recall even seeing his statement," says Fuzile. His voice volume drops.

Fuzile: The thing I cared about was a statement issued by the Minister of Finance that deals with the market, what South Africans were worried about, what investors were worried about. What I do recall seeing at one point was a piece of paper with some purplish things on it.

#StateCaptureInquiry Please note the remarks above are paraphrased, summarised and not verbatim. "You say you don't remember whether he ever asked you to make any input into the statement that he prepared?" asks Zondo. Fuzile replies, "No. I do not."

#StateCaptureInquiry "When I got to the Union Buildings there is Mr Bobat," says Fuzile. He says Bobat raised a statement and when this happened Fuzile indicated Bobat should go to Van Rooyen (as the minister) since they had already discussed the prospect of a statement.

Fuzile is emphatic about matters he wanted Van Rooyen to consider. Fuzile says, "I knew what needed to be said in consultation with the minister, of course." He gives examples of statements prepared when Pravin Gordhan and Malusi Gigaba were appointed Minister of Finance.

#StateCaptureInquiry Fuzile says he is concerned Mathipa is not concerned with the content of the statement. "Where did I agree? Where do you prove that I agree with it?" asks Fuzile, confronting Mathipa. Zondo intervenes as the mood of this cross-examination rises.

#StateCaptureInquiry "That is a lie," says Fuzile in response to Mathipa's assertion he approved of the contents of a statement Van Rooyen prepared. Mathipa moves on to the appointment of an advisor. "Mr Van Rooyen found Mr Bobat with me. He did not introduce us," says Fuzile.

Mathipa asks Fuzile about Mohamed Bobat. "On the day at the Union Buildings, Mr Bobat I found him there. He introduced himself to me as Mr Van Rooyen's advisor," says Fuzile. He had the impression they did not know one another well, or had not known one another for a long time.

Zondo to Fuzile: So your evidence is that Mr Van Rooyen initially said that Mr Bobat was going to be his Chief of Staff and Mr Bobat corrected him and said advisor or special advisor and after that the conversation proceeded on the basis that he would be his advisor?

#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo has given Mathipa a further 15 minutes to cross-examine Fuzile. Mathipa asserts Fuzile "didn't tell the truth to the commission" and Fuzile "lied" to the commission in saying Van Rooyen confused the positions in his office. "I deny that," says Fuzile.

#StateCaptureInquiry Mathipa: At no stage, Mr Fuzile, do you say to the minister these people are not supposed to work until I have formalised all the processes. You never said that to him. Do you agree? Do you agree or don't you agree?

#StateCaptureInquiry Fuzile says, "I didn't know that the minister doesn't know that people don't work without a contract. And I did, twice I reminded them that there is a ministerial handbook. At least twice, I reminded them."

#StateCaptureInquiry Fuzile asks, "Are you saying that it was not sufficient? Of course, I wasn't there when he met them at Melrose Arch so I couldn't advise him not to bring them to the Treasury. They were already there now."

[EARLIER] #StateCaptureInquiry "So, we had to deal with the fact that he had committed an egregious violation of the rules to bring people into the department and give them access to everything before they had formalised contracts," continues Fuzile.

#StateCaptureInquiry Mathipa says, "Mr Fuzile I am going to ask you questions. Don't ask me questions." He says Fuzile did not say to Van Rooyen he could not appoint the advisors. "What you are missing is that I referred him to the book," says Fuzile of the rulebook.

#StateCaptureInquiry "Are you saying that is not advice in your world [...] I did advise him. I said you must read the ruleblook [...] your question is misplaced," says Fuzile.

Mathipa refers to a document and says there is nothing sensitive about it. Zondo asks if Van Rooyen going to say it was meant for everybody and anybody including people outside of National Treasury and government. "Is he going to say it was proper?" he asks. "Yes," says Mathipa.

#StateCaptureInquiry Fuzile retorts, if that is Van Rooyen's version, "thanks god he didn't stay long in Treasury" because the document soliciting views was, in his eyes, sensitive. "This document was a Cabinet document," says Fuzile.

[NOT VERBATIM] #StateCaptureInquiry Fuzile: Here we were. We had people who had no contracts, whom we barely knew, whom in our hearts of hearts we felt actually the person who might have brought them didn't know all that well himself.

#StateCaptureInquiry Fuzile says, "You can't say to the minister because you have brought dubious people here, we won't work with you." He adds, "It needed to be stopped in its tracks." He asks with a heavy sigh, "Am I done now? This means I can go home and do my work."

#StateCaptureInquiry Proceedings have adjourned for lunch and are set to resume at 14:00. Please note my live updates will be limited during the course of the afternoon. You can follow many reliable reporters and the live stream of the @StateCaptureCom sitting for more.

[HAPPENING NOW] #StateCaptureInquiry Van Rooyen has begun. He speaks of a stifled revolutionary programme in terms of economics and an "evil alliance" which does not act alone. He says he supports the call for expansion of the @StateCaptureCom in terms of white monopoly capital.

#StateCaptureInquiry You can monitor Van Rooyen's testimony @StateCaptureCom online below (via @SABCNews). Hulley says, "It has been 13 minutes that he's been speaking. He asked for ten minutes." Zondo says, "No. Leave it to me." Van Rooyen continues.

#StateCaptureInquiry Van Rooyen mentions Minister of Public Enterprises Pravin Gordhan, specifically in relation to the national airline. "Why is this minister allowed to overlook competent black professionals?" he asks and then speaks of a "revolving door" of Treasury officials.

#StateCaptureInquiry "Our struggle is not yet over," says Van Rooyen, publicly committing to full emancipation including economic empowerment. He describes his political history, including during the armed struggle.

#StateCaptureInquiry Van Rooyen says, "I never and will never sell my soul to the highest bidder for me to be elected to a leadership position." He speaks of Fuzile's allegations: it's a political lie, he claims, by those who are resistant to National Treasury changing.

#StateCaptureInquiry After Van Rooyen's opening address, Zondo thanks him for coming to the @StateCaptureCom. Hulley begins, referring to Van Rooyen's statement which he confirms, save for a corrected date on a meeting with former President Jacob Zuma.

#StateCaptureInquiry Hulley refers to Van Rooyen's appointment as Minister of Finance in late 2015. You can monitor the proceedings live via the @SABCNews live stream below. Van Rooyen describes an evening meeting with Zuma.

#StateCaptureInquiry Hulley asks Van Rooyen about meetings (indicated in Van Rooyen's statement) with Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta at the family's Saxonwold property after his September 2015 appointment as Treasurer General of the Umkhonto we Sizwe Military Veterans Association (MKMVA).

#StateCaptureInquiry Van Rooyen indicates he met Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta at the Saxonwold residence, also in Sandton. Hulley asks if this was always in Van Rooyen's MKMVA role or in any other capacity. Van Rooyen indicates he only met him in his MKMVA capacity.

#StateCaptureInquiry "I had to rope in some members of our association, more especially from the executive," says Van Rooyen on who accompanied him to the meetings with Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta which he attended in his capacity as Treasurer General of the MKMVA toward the end of 2015.

#StateCaptureInquiry Hulley asks Van Rooyen approximately how many times he met Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta. He says he cannot say (as he cannot remember) but it was several times and Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta introduced him to other members of the Gupta family.

Van Rooyen describes how he came to meet Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta, beginning saying that he was "fresh from conference" around October 2015 and Gupta came to his office at Luthuli House. "It was not an arranged meeting," says Van Rooyen. "It was not even an appointment," he adds.

#StateCaptureInquiry "That was the first time I met him," says Van Rooyen of Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta entering his office in Luthuli House around October 2015. This is two months before Zuma appointed Van Rooyen as Minister of Finance. Hulley asks about the discussion.

#StateCaptureInquiry "His submission in our first engagement: he narrated the relationship of their business with the ANC but also with MK," says Van Rooyen of Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta. "I think his idea was to say to me as a Treasurer General we also work your association," he adds.

#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo asks when Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta came into Van Rooyen's office whether he had already been elected as MKMVA Treasurer General. Van Rooyen confirms that is so, and says Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta congratulated him.

[NOTE] #StateCaptureInquiry Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta is the youngest of three Gupta brothers well-known in South Africa. During his evidence in October 2019, Duduzane Zuma has said of him, "That's my guy." See my @dailymaverick story below.

dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-1…

#StateCaptureInquiry Van Rooyen says his concurrent roles as Treasurer General of MKMVA and a Cabinet minister are permissible. Hulley returns to Van Rooyen's meetings with Rajesh 'Tony' Gupta and asks how much money MKMVA raised from the Guptas at this time.

#StateCaptureInquiry "They came in as one of the four main sponsors of that particular event," says Van Rooyen of a 2016 golf event he describes as very successful. "And they followed up with another sponsorship as one of the three main sponsors of the next golf event."

#StateCaptureInquiry "We are looking at plus minus R1.2-million that they contributed for those two events respectively," says Van Rooyen of the Guptas' contribution to two MKMVA golf events, in 2016 and 2017.

#StateCaptureInquiry Here from @TheCitizen_News is an article about the 2016 golf day, which Van Rooyen has just raised at today's hearing. This in reply to a question on Gupta sponsorship or funding to the MKMVA.

citizen.co.za/news/south-afr…

Hulley asks if, outside golfing events, the Guptas provided any other form of sponsorship. "Not really," begins Van Rooyen. He says the support for liberation military veterans is poor, they'd approach him for help, he's "dead sure" in some of those instances the Guptas helped.

#StateCaptureInquiry "I can't recall but it is a possibility," says Van Rooyen, amending his previous mention of being "dead sure" about Gupta support for liberation military veterans. He has described veterans' needs for building materials, groceries and so on.

#StateCaptureInquiry Hulley returns to an 8 December 2015 meeting. "I phoned the Gupta residence and I was told that Tony is there. So, I went there to try my luck [...] he was busy with other meetings," says Van Rooyen. You can monitor live below.