Thread by @karlajstrand

Excited for this one - starting soon! @agordonreed

https://twitter.com/pvdAth/status/1308089104421224455

Matt Burriesci from @pvdAth introduces Annette Gordon-Reed and Emily Owens. The Most Blessed of the Patriarchs is Gordon-Reed's most recent book. She's an expert on Thomas Jefferson and worked with another Jefferson expert (and friend) Peter Onuf on it.

Gordon-Reed: She is more knowledgeable about Jefferson and slavery and Onuf is more of an expert on Jefferson's intellectual life. They complemented one another well; melded it into one voice. Wanted to see what else they could find about Jefferson that was interesting.

Onuf and Gordon-Reed have known one another for decades and have talked about this for a long time. Owens asks about how she sits with Jefferson after researching and "knowing" him for so long.

Gordon-Reed: Jefferson embodies the American paradox, duality of idealism and the less than ideal. He is her way of studying racism and what it means to be an American.

Gordon-Reed: As Onuf is a white guy and she a Black woman who grew up in the south, it made for interesting perspectives re: Sally Hemings. Onuf helped convince her that Jefferson's religion was actually really important in his decision making, etc.

Gordon-Reed: She and Onuf brought different perspectives to the project. They clashed at times but weren't diametrically opposed. It was a fun project with "some dicey moments" but almost entirely "smooth sailing."

Gordon-Reed: Been studying Jefferson and the early American republic since the early '90s. But this is the moment she wonders if the republic is really going to work. She's been reflecting on how she tells the story. How she tells it:

Gordon-Reed: This was a flawed experiment and this tremendous sin of slavery was at the heart of it and was a problem. Over time and with a war, people used the Constitution to ideally correct the sin. It didn't quite work, took a long time.

Gordon-Reed: But by the 1960s people started using the Constitutional mechanisms to make change. Progress really has been there as part of the narrative. It's been underneath. But in this moment she wonders: maybe not. Maybe we won't go forward.

Gordon-Reed: Maybe this new incarnation of American society as white man's government... Used to think that institutions and rule of law were important and could save us. But she's now realized that it's the people in the institutions that are the most important.

Gordon-Reed: It's a real problem if the people in the institutions don't believe in them or work to dismantle them. There's a helplessness. But people have to decide they want this progressive experiment to go on. And then make their feelings known (vote).

Gordon-Reed: She hoped that the country would continue to move forward throughout her life and her kids' lives. But now the backlash from Obama is clear. Not sure how we're going to get out of it.

Gordon-Reed: Will the rule of law still work? Can you have a true republic in such a large society? Not ready to throw out law and structure just yet. We've fallen into a pattern of not being involved and participatory. Can't depend only the courts anymore.

Gordon-Reed is a lawyer: We can still use law as a mechanism. But it's a very different animal right now. We are not done yet and is optimistic about the younger generation taking up the causes.

Gordon-Reed: Currently she is working on a second volume of the Hemings' family story. Part of the family lived in the Black community and part in the white community and their experiences differ up through the 20th century. She's also working on a memoir.

Gordon-Reed: History and education is central in our current moment. Jefferson knew education was important for people to become effective citizens. It's still needed for citizenship and for making a living. This moment has made that really clear.

Gordon-Reed: There are some good books out there that teach young people about the complexities of Jefferson. Young people are so savvy. Monticello has a lot of materials for teaching young people about slavery, Hemings, etc.

Owens asks Gordon-Reed about the #1619project: Definitely something people wanted and needed, that's become clear with the project.

Gordon-Reed: Doesn't think that Jefferson thought he was a bad person. He didn't think VA was going to vote slavery out, so he left it alone, thought it would take care of itself. He focused on the American experiment and how the country was going to survive.

Gordon-Reed: Easy to look back and see that slavery would actually be the thing that destroys the nation. He realized this too late. But this wasn't his worry. It was a big deal to move away from aristocracy and form a republic. That was his focus.

Gordon-Reed: Jefferson was the greatest politician of his age 1790s-Andrew Jackson. We haven't had that type of political "reign" for a long time. He was modern, pragmatic, politically gifted, action-oriented, likeable. People were loyal to him.

Gordon-Reed: Hamilton was much more upfront; trying to prove his worth and very concerned about his reputation. He was brilliant also. Like Jefferson, he was used to being the smartest person in the room. They didn't get along. They had different personalities and methods.

Gordon-Reed: Currently reading Saidiya Hartman's "Wayward Lives, Beautiful Experiments" and books about Texas history.

Gordon-Reed: Look to history to move forward. It is a strange time but we've faced hardships before. Look to what they did in the past: they voted, mobilized, marched, worked together to make change. It's a struggle. "Other people made it though and we will as well."

Thanks to @agordonreed, Emily Owens, and @pvdath for such an interesting talk!

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