The roundtable discussion marking the United Nations International Day for Elimination of Violence against Women will begin at 6.30 pm today.
@NISAU_UK
@advocate_tanvi
@VirendraSharma
@arora_sanam
@NISAU_UK
@advocate_tanvi
@VirendraSharma
@arora_sanam
The event has been hosted by the Indo-British All-Party Parliamentary Group with the National Indian Students and Alumni Union UK.
@NISAU_UK
@advocate_tanvi
@VirendraSharma
@arora_sanam
Details on addresses: barandbench.com/news/webinar-u…
@NISAU_UK
@advocate_tanvi
@VirendraSharma
@arora_sanam
Details on addresses: barandbench.com/news/webinar-u…
Session begins.
Tasmay Oza begins the session by welcoming the panel.
Sharma says that the pandemic and lockdown has triggered tensions within houses. Governments have to come together to fight this violence.
Sharma ends his brief address.
Sharma ends his brief address.
Opening remarks from the panelists begin.
Justice AK Sikri International judge, Singapore Supreme Court and Former judge, Supreme Court of India begins his address.
Justice Sikri: Nature has created a balance by creating a man and a woman.
The world talks of gender equality. Why is one gender considered more superior than the other, is something to be thought about.
The world talks of gender equality. Why is one gender considered more superior than the other, is something to be thought about.
Justice Sikri: If you consider the traits of the man and women, then one will realise that women are stronger.
But why are men able to subjugate women?
Law and constitution talks of humanity. Dignity of human beings, more particularly women.
But why are men able to subjugate women?
Law and constitution talks of humanity. Dignity of human beings, more particularly women.
Justice Sikri: Respect for her capacity to make her own free choices.
Respect for the choices so made.
Respect for the conditions in which she makes her choices.
Respect for the choices so made.
Respect for the conditions in which she makes her choices.
Justice Sikri: Men have been able to subjugate over women historically.
Justice Sikri’s connection breaks mid-way.
Actor Shabana Azmi, former MP India begins her address.
@AzmiShabana
Actor Shabana Azmi, former MP India begins her address.
@AzmiShabana
Azmi: Violence against women is in many forms, from child marriage, to physical, sexual assault, domestic violence, genital mutilation.
@AzmiShabana
@AzmiShabana
Azmi: As @VirendraSharma said, women have been facing more violence at home during the lockdown.
Violence against women is rooted in gender equality.
@AzmiShabana
Violence against women is rooted in gender equality.
@AzmiShabana
Azmi: The social norms of masculinity and feminity leads to patriarchy so deeply embedded in us.
If we look at our textbooks - we have mother in the kitchen and father in the office.
@AzmiShabana
If we look at our textbooks - we have mother in the kitchen and father in the office.
@AzmiShabana
Azmi: These are privileges to the male child due to which a female child has to feel grateful that she was even born.
Access to right and control over their own bodies is an issue.
Male child is brought up as entitled and privileged.
@AzmiShabana
Access to right and control over their own bodies is an issue.
Male child is brought up as entitled and privileged.
@AzmiShabana
Azmi: We do not want to be treated as goddesses. We want to be treated with dignity.
When women start earning money, their status in the family changes. They start being viewed as an asset and not as an liability.
@AzmiShabana
When women start earning money, their status in the family changes. They start being viewed as an asset and not as an liability.
@AzmiShabana
Azmi: She should have right over how she spends her money.
We should value the girl child right from our education.
@AzmiShabana
We should value the girl child right from our education.
@AzmiShabana
Azmi: How many women actually have access to law? The woman going to file a complaint is not encouraged and rather blamed for the offence against her.
If there are more women in the police force, there will be more empathy.
@AzmiShabana
If there are more women in the police force, there will be more empathy.
@AzmiShabana
Azmi: The girl is cross questioned. The police repeat all patriarchal norms. If she goes to report, she is asked what was she doing out late and about her clothes.
If wife is slapped by the husband, she is asked to adjust.
There should be zero tolerance!
@AzmiShabana
If wife is slapped by the husband, she is asked to adjust.
There should be zero tolerance!
@AzmiShabana
Additional Solicitor General Madhavi Divan begins her address.
Divan: We see women in so many sectors in the world, women achieving more.
And yet women at workplace, in womb is unsafe.
There is a deep engraining in our psyche that men call the shots in the family.
Violence is manifestation of this belief.
And yet women at workplace, in womb is unsafe.
There is a deep engraining in our psyche that men call the shots in the family.
Violence is manifestation of this belief.
Divan: I have pondered over this “longing and yearning for a male child"
Divan shares a story of her grandmother.
Divan shares a story of her grandmother.
Divan: When I was born, the second daughter, the nurse came out rushing with the news and asked my grandmother if she was mother or mother-in-law!
Such was the situation.
When I had a daughter, I was told “it doesn’t matter!”
Such was the situation.
When I had a daughter, I was told “it doesn’t matter!”
Divan: I want to know why is there a belief that the daughter cannot take forward the name of her family, and only the son would.
I always use my maiden name when I write.
Judges tell me that they don’t know me by that name, but then sometimes I let it pass.
I always use my maiden name when I write.
Judges tell me that they don’t know me by that name, but then sometimes I let it pass.
Divan: We haven’t been to change it for all these decades.
Violence happened always, but now men are coming to terms that women have made enormous progress by asserting themselves.
They are competing for the same job.
Violence happened always, but now men are coming to terms that women have made enormous progress by asserting themselves.
They are competing for the same job.
Divan: Men respond to this in the best way they know of, by asserting the physical and sexual assault.
We have had horrific cases in recent years, like the Nirbhaya case. Human conduct could not have fallen lower.
There were amendments in law. Guilty have now been punished.
We have had horrific cases in recent years, like the Nirbhaya case. Human conduct could not have fallen lower.
There were amendments in law. Guilty have now been punished.
Divan: But crime and violence against women hasn’t stopped.
Nirbhaya’s parents bravely spoke about the incident in various gatherings.
A certain DGP on one of the panel said that the mother of the victim was an attractive, and imagine how attractive her daughter would be.
Nirbhaya’s parents bravely spoke about the incident in various gatherings.
A certain DGP on one of the panel said that the mother of the victim was an attractive, and imagine how attractive her daughter would be.
Divan: IF we have such people in law enforcement agencies, what do we expect from others.
Yesterday at an event, there were lawyers who were women and that the panel also included husbands of those lawyers.
Yesterday at an event, there were lawyers who were women and that the panel also included husbands of those lawyers.
Divan: One of the panelists suggested to women lawyers that to have a successful career one can marry a constitutional lawyer.
I don’t know what we can do to exorcise such thoughts. I want to.
We need to start young, only then will it go a long way.
I don’t know what we can do to exorcise such thoughts. I want to.
We need to start young, only then will it go a long way.
Divan: That will be a huge step forward and we have to take this seriously!
Divan ends her address.
Divan ends her address.
Sr Adv. Meenakshi Arora begins her address.
Arora: I have been asked to speak on an issue close to my heart.
I believe there has to be more political participation by women to bring about a change.
I believe there has to be more political participation by women to bring about a change.
Arora: In 1948, we talked about equality between men, women and children.
Various laws and legal instruments have been issued to “grant” rights to women as if they are “benefits” conferred on us.
They are not recognised as “pre-existing rights”.
Various laws and legal instruments have been issued to “grant” rights to women as if they are “benefits” conferred on us.
They are not recognised as “pre-existing rights”.
Arora: These so called rights “conferred” upon us were actually rights which had been unfairly taken from us.
Arora: I will give a few illustrations. I will start with the West and then come to India.
Arora explains the kidnapping laws which focused more on the fact that their woman, their property was taken and less on the exploitation against the women.
In France, 1799, women were forbidden to wear pants unless she takes permission.
In France, 1799, women were forbidden to wear pants unless she takes permission.
Arora: Rather than being struck of from the statue book, there were amendments like “women can wear long trousers if they were holding bar of bicycle or reins of the horses.”
In 2013, French govt finally gave away from this archaic law!
In 2013, French govt finally gave away from this archaic law!
Arora: These laws were tried to be amended, however it was not the priority.
She added that these laws were more of the men’s version of the rights of women.
She added that these laws were more of the men’s version of the rights of women.
Arora: The offence of rape was brought through the IPC under British rule.
The first amendment of rape came in 1883 after policemen had brutally raped a tribal girl - 16 yrs old.
The policemen was acquitted claiming that the girl had consented.
The first amendment of rape came in 1883 after policemen had brutally raped a tribal girl - 16 yrs old.
The policemen was acquitted claiming that the girl had consented.
Arora: This caused a major protest and when the minimum sentence was increased to 7 years.
But the definition of rape was changed in 1999, then in 2005 and then after Nirbhaya case.
Why did we need to have an incident of such a gross rate to amend the law?
But the definition of rape was changed in 1999, then in 2005 and then after Nirbhaya case.
Why did we need to have an incident of such a gross rate to amend the law?
Arora: Same thing happened in the sexual harassment laws.
That enactment of Supreme Court judgment came 13 years later.
Are women so unimportant?
That enactment of Supreme Court judgment came 13 years later.
Are women so unimportant?
Arora: It hit me like a brick on my head that our parliament is like an “old boys club”!
Arora: In India despite a universal suffrage, the representation of women in the politics is abysmally low.
Rwanda has 61% women.
We are still trying to secure 33%. We have 50% in the local governments.
Rwanda has 61% women.
We are still trying to secure 33%. We have 50% in the local governments.
Arora: Need of the hour is to increase representation.
In countries of Africa, women came forward after their children and men were killed, they faced assault, but they came forward.
I agree with Divan, children have to be taught young. They do not recognise stereotypes.
In countries of Africa, women came forward after their children and men were killed, they faced assault, but they came forward.
I agree with Divan, children have to be taught young. They do not recognise stereotypes.
Arora: Legislature can introduce gender equality in school curriculum.
We will then get a world where women will be treated with dignity.
We will then get a world where women will be treated with dignity.
Baroness Verma, UK Ministerial Champion begins her address.
Verma: We see that there are huge gaps that need to be focused on.
The people we need to reach out to won’t log into this conversation. They will be struggling with their day to day needs.
The people we need to reach out to won’t log into this conversation. They will be struggling with their day to day needs.
Verma: The pandemic has brought out violence and it can be seen globally. Mental health issues which will come out will be frightening.
Of course we have to start young. There are young girls who do not have access to hygiene during menstruation!
Of course we have to start young. There are young girls who do not have access to hygiene during menstruation!
Verma: We won’t see change because a majority of the population is not involved in this fight - the men.
Legislative institutions have men, they are mostly rich or middle class education men, but we need more women in politics.
Women from all backgrounds come to the table.
Legislative institutions have men, they are mostly rich or middle class education men, but we need more women in politics.
Women from all backgrounds come to the table.
Verma: It is not just women who know people who should come at the table, women from all strata should come.
Figures of representation in so many countries, including US are poor.
Figures of representation in so many countries, including US are poor.
Verma: Women face violence is all forms. They need fair access to technology, finances, opportunities. Men, women, children have to think the same.
Discussions should not be gender based.
Discussions should not be gender based.
Verma: In UK we had set up systems for women to call in case of abuse, but I was thinking about the women who cold not call, who could not speak the language, who did not understand.
We have allowed this to happen.
We have allowed pay disparity based on gender.
We have allowed this to happen.
We have allowed pay disparity based on gender.
Verma: I have worked with many Indian business organisations and I see their management who do not understand their consumers because they do not have women on board.
Verma (speaking on climate issues) If you have women making decisions, then you may have more solutions, as women and children will be more affected by climate change.
Verma: Unless we give people choices and options, we will keep having such conversations.
Verma: Unless we give people choices and options, we will keep having such conversations.
Verma: Now is the time with COVID, that we can make changes, restart, reboot with much needed change.
Verma concludes her address.
Verma concludes her address.
@arora_sanam begins the question answer sessions. She asks Justice Sikri: Being the only male member on the panel, what do you think men can do to bring about change?
Justice Sikri: My question is actually why should we even have these laws in place for bring about equality?
Women are subjected to a glass ceiling of discrimination which has to be shattered.
If I see violence in my neighbourhood, I should not be a mute spectator.
Women are subjected to a glass ceiling of discrimination which has to be shattered.
If I see violence in my neighbourhood, I should not be a mute spectator.
Justice Sikri: We can have neighbourhood associations, gram panchayat involvement etc.
We have cases where women-victims do not come forward with complaints against physical abuse.
There is legal aid given to women - there needs to be awareness about this.
We have cases where women-victims do not come forward with complaints against physical abuse.
There is legal aid given to women - there needs to be awareness about this.
Justice Sikri: Women need to know their rights.
As far as I heard, Meenakshi has heard how judiciary has acted from time to time. Judges need to be sensitized. There have to be courses on sensitisation.
As far as I heard, Meenakshi has heard how judiciary has acted from time to time. Judges need to be sensitized. There have to be courses on sensitisation.
Justice Sikri: Even judges, when they want to do justice, they need to understand feminist attitude. I will read few lines from my speech.
Justice Sikri: By nature, a part of me is feminine. A male to be complete must embrace his feminity.
Feminism helps in inhering the qualities for administration of justice.
Feminism helps in inhering the qualities for administration of justice.
Justice Sikri: In order to do justice, they need feminist feelings and qualities.
There is so much about the females that men have to learn.
There is so much about the females that men have to learn.
@advocate_tanvi asks Divan if female qualities cause any difficulty for women to argue cases.
Divan: I started from Bombay as a counsel, where I would not deal with the client. But I have personally never come across any client who prefers male over female.
Divan: I started from Bombay as a counsel, where I would not deal with the client. But I have personally never come across any client who prefers male over female.
Divan: The client comes with an expectation, and that is to deliver. I have at least 20 instances, where I faced discrimination in other ways.
My growth trajectory was slower.
My growth trajectory was slower.
Divan: The attitude in the Bar where you have a well settled husband is that men earn the bread-butter and women are only the jam. You don’t need to earn really.
How tenacious you are will determine your career growth.
How tenacious you are will determine your career growth.
Divan: It took me a long time to convince people to take me seriously, that I will be around for long.
There are three stages in career - You work and don’t get paid, you work and you get paid, you don’t work and still get paid. I am yet to reach the third stage.
There are three stages in career - You work and don’t get paid, you work and you get paid, you don’t work and still get paid. I am yet to reach the third stage.
Divan: I have also observed that women tend to be less aggressive, or women who are not confident tend to be more aggressive to compensate for confidence.
But today I do not see any disadvantage, but getting here has been a long journey.
But today I do not see any disadvantage, but getting here has been a long journey.
@advocate_tanvi It was a pleasure hearing you Ma’am. It is an inspiration to all young lawyers, even yesterday’s session covered by @barandbench who have put a story.
barandbench.com/news/asg-madha…
barandbench.com/news/asg-madha…
@arora_sanam asks Arora to share her views on the enforcement and enactment of the present laws concerning women’s rights.
Arora: I believe if there will be more representation of women in politics, more pertinent issues can be raised and then representation will keep growing.
Arora: I believe if there will be more representation of women in politics, more pertinent issues can be raised and then representation will keep growing.
@arora_sanam asks Verma what her views on how issues against women are tackled in UK.
Verma: We have been having discussions to come with a solution for violence women are facing during the pandemic.
She mused as to why women have to leave their homes and why not perpetuator?
Verma: We have been having discussions to come with a solution for violence women are facing during the pandemic.
She mused as to why women have to leave their homes and why not perpetuator?
Verma: I remember this incident where a woman had to leave her house after the husband hanged the child outside the bedroom window threatening to throw her so that the woman leaves the house. She lived in her car for 3 days.
@advocate_tanvi asks Justice Sikri about the importance of courts to interfere in cases evidencing deprivation of freedom and equality of women.
Justice Sikri shares an incident where an issue of maintenance came up before him when he was judge in India.
Justice Sikri shares an incident where an issue of maintenance came up before him when he was judge in India.
Justice Sikri: I always used to believe that this is not just maintenance issue but human rights issues. Judges have to have desired sensitivity.
Any case- maintenance, rape, succession, etc.
Any case- maintenance, rape, succession, etc.
Justice Sikri: The amendment in Hindu Succession Act in 2005 gave daughters a right in the undivided family of her paternal family.
I took the view when such a case came is the daughter has to get her rightful share.
I took the view when such a case came is the daughter has to get her rightful share.
Justice Sikri: When you consider the second marriage issue, I had held in cases before me that the man cannot take advantage of his own wrong and pay maintenance to the second wife.
@arora_sanam asks @AzmiShabana about the role of cinema play for gender equality.
Azmi: I grew up in a family that believed art can be used for social change.
Not a direct role, but it has a capacity to create a climate of sensitivity.
Azmi: I grew up in a family that believed art can be used for social change.
Not a direct role, but it has a capacity to create a climate of sensitivity.
Azmi: As far as Hindi cinema was concerned, films have seen a shift from the caring silent women to the opposite.
As an actor what I can do is work in films that propagates views of equality.
The audience is also responsible for bringing about the change.
@AzmiShabana
As an actor what I can do is work in films that propagates views of equality.
The audience is also responsible for bringing about the change.
@AzmiShabana
Azmi: Why is it that women centric films are paid lower than male centric films.
Women are paid lesser. Women are being objectified. I object to objectification.
Business of cinema is all about the image.
@AzmiShabana
Women are paid lesser. Women are being objectified. I object to objectification.
Business of cinema is all about the image.
@AzmiShabana
Azmi: Mr. Benegal has been instrumental in bringing women with more layers.
In commercial main stream cinema, it has started.
Female actors have started to want good roles. They want to reduce their pay to do good women centric roles.
@AzmiShabana
In commercial main stream cinema, it has started.
Female actors have started to want good roles. They want to reduce their pay to do good women centric roles.
@AzmiShabana
Azmi: But I will still say why do they have to do so?
Justice Sikri chimes in: Thappad is an example of a recent women centric cinema.
@AzmiShabana
Justice Sikri chimes in: Thappad is an example of a recent women centric cinema.
@AzmiShabana
@advocate_tanvi asks Divan what role can women play to support and encourage other women.
Divan: Of course there is encouragement necessary.
I have not seen many instances in the Bombay High Court where women could have a work life balance.
Divan: Of course there is encouragement necessary.
I have not seen many instances in the Bombay High Court where women could have a work life balance.
Divan: Bombay Bar also had, still has very few counsels.
I wanted to enjoy my work and my family life too.
In Bombay not many women support other women. I mostly had male mentors.
I wanted to enjoy my work and my family life too.
In Bombay not many women support other women. I mostly had male mentors.
Divan: But here (Delhi) I had Meenakshi and Justice Indu, Justice Banerjee, who were very supportive mentors.
It will also be much easier if they can talk about their problems.
It will also be much easier if they can talk about their problems.
Divan: We have new lawyers coming in from law schools (male and female) who glamourise this profession, they want to join big law firms with fat salaries with exacting routine.
Divan: I also try to maintain gender parity in my chambers. I think it is important for men to see women are role models.
Justice Sikri praises Divan for her conscious effort to support women lawyers.
Justice Sikri praises Divan for her conscious effort to support women lawyers.
@AzmiShabana adds that a woman should have the right to choose to have a work life balance.
She gives an example for a woman in a corporate who feels apologetic for also giving importance to her family and child.
She gives an example for a woman in a corporate who feels apologetic for also giving importance to her family and child.
@arora_sanam asks Sr Adv Arora to share her experience on the Vishakha case.
Arora: It was long time ago and it went on for five years before the verdict came.
Arora: It was long time ago and it went on for five years before the verdict came.
Arora adds that we were lucky that CEDAW came and Justice Manohar attended the conference.
Arora (to Justice Sikri): I would say that judges attending international conference bring a wealth of knowledge.
Arora (to Justice Sikri): I would say that judges attending international conference bring a wealth of knowledge.
Arora: We were asked if we want to frame guidelines for prevention of sexual harassment and we jumped at the opportunity.
Justice Nariman was also a huge support.
Justice Nariman was also a huge support.
Vignesh Karthik from the @NISAU_UK sums up the key take-aways from today’s session.
@VirendraSharma gives the vote of thanks.
Sharma: It is all about bringing people together to bring awareness.
We should not be ignoring the issues on women even if COVID is taking precedence.
Sharma: It is all about bringing people together to bring awareness.
We should not be ignoring the issues on women even if COVID is taking precedence.
Sharma concludes by hoping that male chauvinism would be taken away from all.
Session ends.
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