Thread by @alysanmati

The cross-examination of Dr. Alexander Westphal by the Crown continues today (Day 3.5). Prosecutor Joe Callaghan starts with a new section of Westphal's reports, suggesting again Westphal left crucial information out. thestar.com/news/gta/2020/…

The report says: "Minassian recognized feeling a "sense of readiness and happiness" when he rented the van and a feeling of "nervousness" when he was driving." Westphal explains nervousness means Minassian's initial worry he wouldn't be able to do through with it.

Crown suggest the nervousness can be linked to Minassian having feelings about his victims. Westphal said in his report: "He was not able to identify any particular feelings associated with the killing of his victims."

Westphal said Minassian said he wondered if he "had the guts to do it" and there was an active decision-making process. But admits under questioning this was "not captured sufficiently" in the report.

Crown: He was making decisions until the point of the attack, still deciding whether or not to do it.

Westphal said he did and continued to make decisions during the attack, after hitting the first group of victims.

Crown: Minassian was measuring whether or not he is going to stop himself. Wrestling with one's conscience?

Westphal: Not wrestling with morality. With whether he had the guts to do it.

Crown: Do you explain that thought process in a fair and balanced way?

Westphal: He has intellectual understanding of morality. Don't think he was wrestling with reservations because of the impact it would have on people.

Looking at typed notes. Westphal says Minassian wasn't thinking, what if one of my victims has a kid, what if someone was nice to me.

Crown asks if Westphal asked Minassian what he meant by nervousness. No follow-up.

Westphal said he accepts the criticism, made that assumption.

Crown: "You've really made a lot of assumptions here."

Westphal: Process of writing a report means making assumptions, judgements, not taking things literally when what you observe doesn't line up with words

Crown: Okay but your assumptions have to be based on facts, and your report has to show how you got there so the judge can assess it fairly.

Westphal: You weigh a lot of complex ingredients together, not just a transcript of what he said.

Oh, Dr. Bradford wasn't muted and said something like "how does he think that works" (I think in response to the Crown q but I'm not sure).

(Dr. Bradford is a prominent forensic psychiatrist who also testified for the defence though he didn't come to a conclusion bc he doesn't have expertise in autism).

Westphal again says his view is Minassian was "a kid" who was "daring himself to do this."

Crown suggests again, this is an assumption not based in a clear explanation from Minassian.

Westphal says there are a "million things" that could be explored from what Minassian said, and that many questions could be asked about many lines from the transcript. Had to make clinical judgements as a professional. Not the entirety of the facts or possible interpretations

Crown: So you agree there are other examples of Minassian having second thoughts or showing ambivalence.

Westphal: I feel like we are going in circles here.

Looking at interview transcript: Minassian agreed he was hoping everything everything fell through and he'd have started his job. That would have been the "best case scenario" and going through with the attack was a "back-up plan."

Crown says this show Minassian wrestling with a moral choice.

Westphal says this shows the strange binary decision Minassian said he had. Job vs death/life in prison. Says it is a shocking sequence of questions and responses.

Crown: Have to understand this in the context of Minassian saying he didn't feel compelled or had to do it.

Westphal: Not saying please stop. Not weighing the impact. Shows just how "shallow" his insight was in what he was about to do and what he did.

Westphal describes the Crown's forensic psychiatrist's report as "excellent."

(Imo this isn't the strongest area the Crown has gone over).

Westphal said Minassian's answers are like when he (Westphal) doesn't want to go someone's house for dinner. Not weighing whether to carry out a horrifying attack.

Crown is putting up the notes of their expert Dr. Scott Woodside. But before that the defence wants to make a comment. Defence says the point has been made that Westphal didn't read the notes. Says the report and notes are verbatim (on this point?).

Looking at the notes now to decide. In them Minassian said he was thinking about the incel ideology to "rev" himself up and was "thinking negatively on purpose" to force himself to do it and not chicken out.

Apparently the report and the notes are the same. Judge said it's better to put the section of the report to Westphal, in fairness.

Since Westphal has read the report.

"But I also wanted to do it....I was trying to push out all thoughts of trying to talk myself out of it," Minassian said.

Then there is a passage in which Minassian explains he used Elliot Rodger's name to boost his own. "It is kind of like working at a company and your boss is really famous, some people might brag about working for him (to boost their fame.)"

Crown: There is good evidence Minassian was struggling with whether to go ahead with the attack.

Westphal: Not a moral struggle. Trying not to chicken out.

Leading up to the attack Minassian said he had no change in sleep leading up to the attack. Purpose of dying was to avoid prison, rather than suicide. Knew the people he killed would be "random" but wanted it to be "the couple crowd, like people holding hands" and women over men.

Crown again suggest this shows Minassian struggling with a moral decision.

Westphal: It's possible but in totality, based on everything, my conclusion is he wasn't weighing a moral decision.

Minassian said he was nervous on Yonge St and wondered if he could do it. At Yonge/Finch he thought: "I am going to do it now, I might as well." He saw a group of five people waiting at a light and thought there would be enough people.

Minassian was thinking if he "got at least 20 (kills) that would be pretty high."

(This is from the Crown psychiatrist report)

Crown showing another part of the transcript in which Minassian describes second thoughts and doing a "180" when the light turned green. he then "slammed the accelerator and drove onto the sidewalk."

Westphal said this supports his view. Continues to disagree with the Crown. We are taking a ten minute break.

Going back to transcript. "I really wanted to do it, but then obviously because it's such a big act , people don't normally do this, obviously I was hesitating," Minassian said.

Crown said Minassian rejects Westphal's Minassian daring himself idea, and in fact this shows he knows it is wrong.

Westphal says Minassian is aware of outcome but didn't appreciate human context of act on other lives.

Crown: Do you believe he has the ability to make moral decisions

Westphal: Not global moral judgements, as they impact people. He can recognize rules of what is right and wrong but not deeper than that.

Crown: His original plan was to start the attack in downtown Toronto and it was a last-second decision to start it at Yonge and Finch.

Westphal: He is making choices and decisions for sure

Minassain posted the Facebook post he drafted before he started the attack at some point when he slowed down. He said he felt satisfied that he posted the message and "happier."

Crown: Shows he never lost touch with reality

Westphal: Not sure how this shows that but he was in reality enough to post the message (which referenced Rodger and incels).

Crown: All these decisions show he never lost touch with reality.

Westphal: I use reality to mean including social reality as part of decision-making. For him this is totally different from a typical person. Cannot understand his actions in any other way.

Crown: Why?

Westphal again says none of Minassian's explanations are coherent or go beyond a surface level. If he took pleasure in the pain of others, I would see that as an explanation. If he was truly commited to the incel ideology, would see that as an explanation.

(Maybe we've heard this and I've forgotten but I am wondering if anyone asked Minassian what he'd think if one of the victims he'd run down was his brother or parent).

Looks like we are watching another video of the Minassian interviews from Dec. 12.

Westphal asks what he would say to the victims. Minassian said it would appropriate to apologize but they might be hostile. Not sure what to say. "Would have to say the truth."

What would you say?

"I was feeling very isolated and bitter at society and I just decided to take out my anger on other people instead of dealing with it directly."

Explains he was feeling left out as a child and "felt short-changed."

Why not kill yourself instead of others?

Would say I wanted attention. Wants to come across and "humble," not big and bad but really weak. Doesn't take much skill to kill people from behind the wheel of the van. Was trying to get approval of random people on the internet. "Takes away my power" for the victims.

He knew some people would think positively. Doesn't need to see that feedback for himself, was planning to be dead anyway.

The part of this clip where Minassian thinks about how he'll come across to the victims and how he wants to present himself (for what end?) is so bizarre.

Crown: This shows Minassian is capable of abstract thought.

Westphal: Yes

Crown: Not someone with concrete rigid thinking

Westphal: Disagrees, says there is concreteness in him talking about approval on the internet. He really thinks people will approve of this action.

(Okay, from me.... there are people who approve. I've seen it).

Crown: So you don't think people who approve

Westphal says there are people with various motives in this areas. Can say due to rarity of these, vast majority would not approve in a real life way of his acts

Westphal says a huge volume of people in this internet corners just having "sick fun" and "one upmanship." Minassian normed his behaviour on a chunk of statements on these forums, mistaking a nasty, dark form of humour.

Crown: Minassian thought some people would be supportive.

Westphal: People would make jokes about this. But if you pulled those people into a room, and asked if they approve, not a substantial portion of people like that.

Crown: Minassian was able to take perspective of a surviving victim, in that passage.

Westphal: Not really.

Crown: Minassian was able to correctly use the term disingenous, something many lawyers can't do

Crown: He recognized how he'd sound to the victims.

Westphal: He says would tell them the truth, that he was angry. But he had no simmering anger. I think he is putting things in terms he expects people want to hear.

We are taking the lunch break. I'm not sure Westphal really understands the entirety of the places Minassian was spending time online and where he sought approval from, particularly the incel forums. There is a lot more than dark, twisted humour there.

We are back. Crown takes Westphal to this line of his report: "The act was also completely beyond his comprehension, given his absence of understanding of emotional abuse, social exchange and contextual accommodation. He had absolutely not sight into the terrible impact that the

act would have on other beings, and did not think about the pain he was bound to cause, nor understood it, even slightly now." (Last tweet should say "no insight into")

Crown notes that Minassian has called his own actions devastating and that his parents would be devastated.

Westphal says Minassian's understanding of devastated is limited, just bc he uses the word doesn't mean he can understand what others experience.

The judge takes the opportunity after an objection to tell the Crown: "It is getting EXTREMELY REPETITIVE."

The Crown says he's heading into another area with this set-up.

Westphal, when asked, says Minassian was paying "lip service" to the impact on his parents.

Crown: Your report makes bold and absolute conclusions about his lack of understanding of impact

Westphal: The report is clear, and states the way I understand things.

Crown: You think absolutely no insight is fair

Westphal: Basically yes

Crown reads part of the transcript of the interviews.

Minassian knew his parents would be disappointed. "My parents might feel guilt. Where did I go wrong? Did I somehow lead to think this is okay, why did he do this?

Westphal said this doesn't show he understands

Crown: He shows some real insight into the questions his parents would be asking themselves

Westphal: That makes sense

Crown: Despite his understanding of his parent's concerns and costs of actions, he chose to kill anyway

Westphal: He wasn't weighing that impact, or impact on others

Crown: Minassian said, i get it. I understand the impact but I just really wanted to do it.

Westphal maintains you can't accept Minassian's words at face value, that they don't show what he really can understand.

Westphal says he cannot really imagine what it must be like for his parents, but he can do so much more than Minassian can.

Crown is reading out a portion of the transcript we've gone through where Minassian said, if he was the child of one of his victims, he'd be "grief-stricken." He said he does feel "a little guilty" for the very young kids wondering why he killed their parents.

Crown: This is just lip service

Westphal again says Minassian doesn't have the insight. "To me this is the problem with trying to understand his actions."

In his report Westphal noted Minassian rejected two interview requests from local media after the attack. Inconsistent with the noteriety narrative.

Crown: It is an important inconsistency. You would not have included if not. If he was interested in infamy why not speak to the reporters.

Crown is now reading another bit of transcript. Minassian says he wanted to be killed because he didn't want to go to prison. But he didn't do the attack in order to be killed. He wanted "eternally fame" on the internet. Didn't want to die in obscurity.

Westphal says Minassian doesn't understand that he is increasing someone else's notoriety. Doesn't make sense that he will be on the internet as someone notorious.

(I truly don't understand Westphal's opinion here).

Taking a ten minute break now.

We are back. Crown reads some of Dr. Bradford notes, which Westphal has read though he wryly says he doesn't remember much of anything at this point.

The gist of the passages is that Minassian was invested in boosting his own fame and notoriety.

"If I went out and killed people without any reason, then I'm just an average mass killer but if I say something on a large social network platform then I tie myself into some other big-time names...increase my name and infamy regarding the killing."

Crown says this is not illogical. Makes sense that a killing tied to eg Manson is different in terms of noteriety.

Westphal says it doesn't make sense, it's incoherent. Doesn't understand the rationale.

"By taking on mantle of Rodger, he'd generate more noteriety...but then what is the noteriety?" Westphal said.

(Again, if this was Minassian's plan, in my view it absolutely worked. He is a high--profile incel name in his own right, online, in academia and in media).

(This is one of Westphal's weakest areas. It is important to the Crown because Westphal has repeatedly said his opinion is based on Minassian having no coherent/rational/clear motive.)

(My understanding was that the Crown isn't going to be calling an expert in incels and their veneration of Rodger and other mass killers but I hope they do, if only for Molloy's decision to address this area clearly).

Minassian appears to be falling asleep in his chair! He's doing head droop, lift when too far, droop again.

In the mean time the Crown is talking about Minassian's focus on kill counts.

Minassian has managed to wake up, but he's leaning back in his chair with his arms crossed (not his usual position).

No, he is still nodding off. The judge has noticed. Minassian jerks up when she says that. She asks him to walk around a bit while we take a five minute break for the Crown to locate something.

Looking at form from the Toronto South in which Minassian is informed there is a media request to interview him. "I do not consent because I have not been tried yet," Minassian handwrote.

Another interview request from the Toronto Star is being shown. Minassian simply wrote: "No."

Crown asks if Westphal asked Minassian why he didn't speak to the media.

Westphal said it was something he observed after the fact. Sees what he said about not having gone to trial. But he could have waived that right.

Crown: Something you concluded without understanding why. But there are reasonable reasons not to speak to the media, like following legal advice?

Westphal agrees.

Crown: He could also have already achieved his goal of notoriety and didn't need to speak to the media.

Westphal said he doesn't know the answer to that

Minassian had not had access to the internet but told Crown psych that he heard in court from a Crown that he now has a "revered status" in some incel groups. Shows someone who remains interested in his notoriety.

Westphal agrees Minassian took note of this.

(There was a whole thing in court when the defence was trying to access Minassian's devices about how he could inspire other attacks if he had access to the internet and his status now, after the attack).

The Crown is now asking Westphal about the "converting the life status to death status" phrasing like in a video game. It's one of the five things that were the basis for him concluding Minassian was not capable of understanding moral wrongfulness.

There is a mistake in the report which Westphal admits -- Minassian used the phrase in reference to Elliot Rodger not himself. But, Westphal said, it was bound up with his own actions and something they discussed in their interviews.

Crown suggests he was not as careful as he should have been.

The Crown's computer has frozen, we are taking a ten-minute break

We are back.

Crown: Did you talk to him about the life to death status this.

Westphal: I am almost positive.

Crown: Found a ref in your notes. But don't see a question or context in your notes.

Crown: You are suggesting this shows he doesn't know his actions are real life?

Westphal says the whole thing shows no emotional or real insight.

Crown: But nothing he said shows he didn't know it was real life

Westphal: Completely detached quality, like playing a game in real life.

Another psychiatrist said Minassian said he knew he was not in a video game at the time and that his actions were real.

Westphal says he agrees that Minassian didn't think he was playing a video game, but there is a "dissociative" quality to his actions, focus on scores etc.

The Crown is now trying to get Westphal to explain what he meant when he said Minassian was "hyper-focused" during the attack, but could not explain further. Crown says Minassian did in fact explain further. He was focused on staying on sidewalk and not hit obstacles

Westphal said he though it was hyperfocus on hitting people and avoiding anyone who could stop him. "I'm sorry," he says, sounding utterly defeated.

Crown asks if Westphal read the Rodger manifesto. Westphal says yes, though he doesn't anything about Rodger's motivations and state of mind beyond that.

Rage didn't seem to be a central motivating factor for Minassian, unlike it seemed for Rodger, Westphal said.

Crown: Minassian made it clear that he would have committed these murders anyway, regardless of Rodger's manifesto

Westphal: It was very very clear to me Minassian read about a group of people who did things like this and was inspired and motivated by that.

Crown: Reading the manifesto didn't change anything for him

Westphal: My memory, "it's difficult for me to clearly articulate things at this stage," is that he identified with the manifesto.

Crown: But not a "watershed moment" for him

Westphal: He was already immersed in this content area when he read the manifesto.

Transcript: Minassian said it wasn't that anything changed when he read the manifesto, but it was "much more interesting" than the other school shootings. They were in the same age group, "he was young and he was depressed about society."

From Crown psych report: Minassian was lonely in the months, years preceding the attack. He recalled seeing couples at college holding hands and saying silly things to each other.

Crown: Bottom line is that mass murder is something Minassian really wanted to do

Westphal: Yes.

Transcript: Westphal asks if the notoriety aspect was important than revenge.

Minassian said "kind of." It something he wanted to do any way. "Even if I hadn't known about Elliot Rodger I probably would have still gone with it."

Crown is taking Westphal through things Minassian has said, about not choosing to go see a therapist or get counselling or talk to his parents.

Minassian said he was worried someone might call the police and put him in jail. Crown: So he knew it was wrong.

Westphal: Understands intellectually it was wrong and against society's standards.

Crown says this makes sense, he wouldn't want to tell anyone about it.

Westphal said he could have told his family.

Crown: He took great pains to avoid making his parents suspicious while planning the attack because he knew it was wrong, against moral code for society.

Westphal agrees.

Crown reading another bit of Westphal's report. Minassian's parents noted some things that they felt show he doesn't understand his situation. He asked what grades he got, and how to do his taxes. He thought he'd be going home and everyone would see he "didn't do anything wrong."

Crown says this must have been important to Westphal because he noted that comment twice. It went to your analysis.

Westphal: Part of a lot of information. Does think it is "telling."

It's part of the five things that show he doesn't appreciate moral wrongfulness of his actions.

Crown: Did you ask Minassian about this utterance?

Westphal: I don't I'm sorry

Crown: Do you understand why your lack of finding out about this is important?

Westphal: I heard it another way and took it as face value. As another one of the ingredients in the overall picture.

Crown: You didn't think you should ask him what he meant when his parents said Minassian told them he was looking forward to the trial because he'd go home soon and everybody would see he did nothing wrong."

Westphal didn't ask Minassian about it. He took what the parent's said at face value.

Crown: You didn't take his statements about knowing moral wrongfulness at face value?

Westphal says he's explained what thinks about this.

Crown: You didn't think the statement was in stark contrast with what he told you and other assessors.

Westphal said he didn't think it was in stark contrast, part of his not understanding implications.

Crown: He told you he knows he is looking at ten life sentences in prison and others that he expects to spend the rest of his life in jail.

Westphal agrees.

Crown: He never told you didn't think what he did was wrong.

Westphal says he is not interested in Minassian's "explicit statements."

Crown asks again.

Westphal said his conclusion was made on the basis of many things, mostly lack of insight.

Crown: You felt it was okay to include this point without reconciling this with what he said about moral wrongfulness.

Westphal: It was one more example of disconnect

Taking another break till 4:15. The judge sighs.

Okay, sorry I forgot to update. We are done for the day. The Crown ended cross with no further questions after the break. Back for about an hour of re-examination of Dr. Westphal by the defence tomorrow. Then move onto Crown experts.