Thread by @Dave_Boucher1

Michigan Senate Oversight Committee will hear from Detroit elections advisor Chris Thomas today.

Before hearing begins. Chairman Ed McBroom seems to indicate he'll ask witnesses to take an "oath." This comes after House lawmakers rebuffed a similar suggestion for Giuliani

When the Senate Oversight Committee met for 7+ hours last week to hear testimony from people alleging election fraud (they did not have evidence of widespread fraud) no oath was required. freep.com/story/news/pol…

McBroom says he got the idea of administering an oath after he saw other hearings last week.

Sen. Irwin, D-Ann Arbor, notes House cmt denied opportunity to put Giuliani under oath.

"I just want to put out how frustrating it is for some of us to protect (Giuliani)..."

McBroom on oaths: "I wish that we had started from the beginning, I intend to be consistent through the remainder of the hearings."

Chris Thomas is sworn in for the Senate hearing. He notes he's submitted multiple affidavits with similar information.
(Background here: freep.com/story/news/loc…)

You can watch this hearing here: misenate.viebit.com/player_live.ph…

And background on Chris Thomas, who worked 36 years for the state under Republican and Democratic secretaries of state freep.com/story/news/loc…

Thomas says he's going to walk through what happened at TCF Center in Detroit, where absentee ballots were counted. Emphasizes that mistakes are very different than fraud.

Notes issues raised show misunderstanding and confusion of Michigan election law and administration.

Thomas says his role in Detroit was as a senior advisor. He worked with the city on absentee ballot counting, satellite offices and drop boxes. He said he also served as a liaison with "challenging organizations" at TCF

Thomas is defining terms for the lawmakers (e-pollbook, qualified voter file, etc.)

Remember, the Senate Oversight Committee has met several times and heard from people making allegations before hearing from Thomas or other elections experts

Thomas shows this slide to refute allegations voting machines were improperly connected to the Internet.

"No internet connection, no internet icons, no wifi connectivity."

Said the computers didn't have the capacity to connect remotely to the internet.

Thoma: "There was nothing transmitted (online) at TCF. Folks can talk until they're blue in the face, but there was nothing transmitted from TCF."

Thomas: "Even if those laptops had WiFi connectivity, not counting board inspector" had credentials to access qualified voter file

Thomas says there was an internet hotspot at TCF, but only used by elections officials and was not connected, or able to be connected, to the vote tabulations system.

Thomas: We didn't hire a force that would go around a football field-sized room to ensure all challengers were behaving. Says before ballots were counted, challenging organizations were trained on processing and tabulating process

Thomas: If you vote straight ticket, and then you go down on the ballot to the section for president, fill in the write-in oval and put Mickey Mouse in, at adjudication, they're going to give that vote to the party's candidate for which that person cast a straight ticket.

Thomas: On Sunday, 2 days before Election Day, 140,000 absentee ballots from Detroit delivered to TCF Center.

Only 174,000 absentee ballots cast in Detroit. This refutes testimony from people who said they saw 50k ballots or more brought to TCF in dead of night on Wednesday

Thomas: There's a lot of talk about not checking signatures an absentee ballot envelopes at TCF. That's because no absentee counting board in the state checks signatures. That's done by local clerks, under state law.

Thomas shares slide of computer screens for challengers to view what workers were doing at TCF Center.

Says the decision by clerk to have these screens protected workers and allowed challengers to see what was going on.

Some challengers said it was difficult to read screen

Thomas: Detroit left absentee ballots in envelopes.

"We never removed them from the envelopes" prior to counting on Election Day.

Says Detroit pre-processed 110,000 ballots on Monday, not all 140K but "gave us a nice head start" going in to Election Day.

Thomas: The law says you can have 1 challenger per counting board, "so there's your 134 to start."

Remember, lots of testimony arguing Republicans weren't allowed to have enough challengers at TCF Center

Thomas: There were shifts at TCF on Monday and Tuesday.

Tuesday shift started at 7 am and went until 9 pm. Next shift came in at 10 pm and worked until 5 am, then another shift change at 6 am on Wednesday.

Thomas: We answered questions all day Tuesday.

"It was not contentious, it was laid back, is how I would describe it."

Said similar Wednesday morning, referencing GOP challenger leadership.

"Democrats didn't ask me a whole lot." Said they told him they weren't challenging

Thomas: Things changed Wednesday afternoon, after social media posts.

"This was a different attitude than the challengers we had been working with the past few days. This group was aggressive, was rude and had no problem making disparaging remarks to the workers."

Thomas: By Wednesday afternoon, things re: counting were winding down. Each board had to stay open until military and overseas ballots were duplicated.

Says he spent Wednesday afternoon "diffusing arguments between challengers and workers"

Thomas says Detroit police told him 8 to 9 people were asked to leave.

"I would say there were hundreds of challengers, definitely."

Says people were not asked to leave, but initially some people were not allowed back in to TCF

Thomas: No one who has testified noted banging on glass at TCF.

"Just banging, chanting about stop the vote. There were tables close to those windows, with workers."

Says cardboard was put up to protect workers if glass shattered and to stop intimidation

Thomas also says challengers inside TCF were chanting about stopping the vote, calling it extraordinary.

Says some challenge leaders with GOP asked people to stop, and they did.

"In my years, I've never seen any display similar to that in a challenging situation."

Thomas: Some witnesses indicated they were thrown out because an agitator enticed them to do bad things and they got caught.

He says he didn't see that, and police did not indicate that

Thomas notes people upset about delivery of ballots. Says people have been concerned for years about late ballots being brought in to Detroit.

Thomas says about 15,000 absentee ballots came in on Election Day. They have to be processed and their signatures checked. Takes time

Thomas: Of these ballots, 45 boxes were loaded into a white van. Boxes are essentially mail trays that hold 300 to 350 ballots.

There is no requirement in Michigan election law that ballots prior to being opened must be transported in sealed boxes. "That just does not exist."

Thomas: It was not a food truck, "no secret there." Says this happened at about 3 a.m.

This appears to again refute testimony from people who said 50K ballots were delivered late at night.

Thomas: Daniel Baxter wasn't there at this time, refutes testimony from someone last week.

Thomas again refuting allegation 50K ballots showed up late. Reiterates it was 15k to 16k ballots

Thomas: "It's always an inflated number, it happens at every election."

Says from my perspective, there was 16,000 ballots. There was not a second delivery.

On Wednesday night, extra *blank* ballots brought in for routine duplication of military/overseas ballots

Thomas, moving to election inspectors. Says he's very grateful for hundreds of workers who "gave the at-risk elders a break" to work during a pandemic.

Elections workers tend to be older citizens, but clerks in the summer said they'd had trouble recruiting elections workers

Thomas notes arguments about lack of Republican inspectors at TCF Center. He says that's true, and an area where work is needed.

"The law is very clear that the parties are given the opportunity...to provide lists of potential inspectors to the clerk."

Thomas: I made a call to (GOP political consultant) Stu Sandler before the election. said he really wanted to make sure Republicans were at the adjudication stations.

Says didn't get anything from Sandler, but Republicans were at duplication stations.

Thomas says it's always difficult to recruit Republican challengers in Detroit. It's difficult to recruit Democratic challengers in other areas around the state, he said.

Before this election, Thomas said challenges have been pretty rare

Thomas: Not surprised if workers pushed back on challengers Wednesday afternoon.

Says if challengers had come to TCF to look for legitimate issues, and not under the pretense that the election was being stolen, "things might have been different."

Thomas: "The one thing that was difficult to see was the ballot numbers. We asked the inspectors to hold them out to the side...the numbers were pretty small."

Says staff attempted to accommodate inspectors, and everything else being done could be seen on the screen

Thomas notes hard for inspectors to see ballot duplication as well. People have testified this was difficult to see.

"A lot of discomfort on the part of the workers" to have people so close during that process and amid a pandemic.

Thomas moving to ballot envelope error allegations. This is heart of allegations from Jessy Jacob, first witness Giuliani spent a great amount of time questioning.

Thomas says satellite voting locations did properly accept ballots, which requires filling in date ballot received

But as Thomas notes, ballots are stamped when they are received. He previously showed a slide with a sample ballot. The date stamp is big, red and in the upper left corner.

Says each of these ballots from satellite centers had a time-date stamp.

Thomas: "We view that as a clerical error, and the type of error that would have been corrected under all four secretaries of state that I worked for...we do not disenfranchise voters based on clerical errors."

Sen. McBroom asks questions about workers who corrected this error.

Thomas says these were workers who had access to QVF and hotspot, but no workers at any ballot tabulation table could access QVF.

Thomas estimates there were 1,000 to 1,500 ballots with this error.

Thomas goes to issues w/birthdate. Lots of people complained about seeing 1/1/1900 birthdates.

Says in polling place, DOB is verification of voters, not signatures. But at AV boards, verification done by sigs not DOB.

Says MI for decades have used 1/1/1900 as placeholder

Thomas: I explained that to at least 15 people on Wednesday.

"It was raised, it was discussed. There was nothing untoward about it."

"We put a ridiculous birthdate in, not trying to kid anybody about anything. It's not wonder that anyone actually saw it."

Thomas says Jacob wanted to go much further and re-verify signatures of all of these ballots.

She was told that's not what they do, and clerks already verified these signatures.

Thomas moves to allegations that ballots counted multiple times.

"First of all, I will just tell you it didn't happen as it was described."

This is the chief allegation from Melisa Carone

Thomas: "There is no counting board out of balance by over 100. That is just plain, again, not knowing what you're looking at."

Says Carone was hired to "clean read-heads on scanners" and is not a Dominion systems expert.

Thomas says Carone and others were looking at the wrong counter on the ballot machine.

"If what she and others are saying is true, then you will have multiple precincts grossly out of balance. Wayne County Board of Canvassers did not find that."

Thomas: "These folks were not necessarily attuned to what they were looking at."

Thomas: Just because a counting board is out of balance does not mean they are not recountable.

At a recount, Thomas says if the number of ballots in the box equals the number of ballots on the ballot tape that came out of tabulation machine, then they can be recounted.

Thomas: There are basically 148 more voters than there are ballots.

"There's no ballot stuffing, of additional ballots than there are voters. And there are explanations that are needed..."

Notes Sec. Benson will likely inspect out-of-balance counting boards.

Benson has already pledged to conduct an audit in Wayne County: freep.com/story/news/pol…

Thomas refuting what he calls conspiracies related to ballots cast and alleged massive increases in voter turnout from Detroit.

Notes Trump received 5,000 more votes in Detroit than he did in 2016.

Thomas: "It just, none of (the conspiracies) add up. The president lost the election in Kent County, in Oakland County and western Wayne County."

Notes out-of-balance precincts throughout state.

Also mentions other states pre-process + count ballots ahead of Election Day

Thomas: In Florida, they gave their counties 22 days before the election to pre-process absentee ballots.

By 9 o'clock, Florida's returns are basically in, Thomas notes.

Thomas says testimony he heard last week made him "uncomfortable," specifically noting allegations about "lazy" workers in Detroit or Flint.

"The idea that we would prosecute election inspectors because they don't balance is absurd."

Thomas: "I'm not here to tell you it was perfect but it was a damn good election, under the circumstances which is was run."

Thomas: You wouldn't have an election if the law said you had to have challengers at each counting board. They're rare.

McBroom asks about duplicating military ballots without having GOP and Dem worker there.

Thomas says you can and have to, while SOS recommends having both

McBroom: We heard testimony about large pile of blank ballots at TCF. What kind of security for these ballots + why so many?

Thomas: How would anyone know ballot they grabbed would be a ballot form they could get into the right counting board? Each board has a unique ballot

Thomas notes if a voter spills coffee or something similar on an absentee ballot and then casts it, election workers can use a duplicate ballot.

This happens whenever workers can ascertain votes on a ballot that the tabulation machine cannot read

Thomas: Tabulating machines would catch a ballot that someone is trying to count if ballot doesn't match with others in the specific precinct.

This would be born out after examining the ballot and noticing different offices on that ballot compared w/other ballots in precinct

Thomas: My sense is that in the past, it was rare for a challenge to be filed.

Not familiar with record of how many challenges filed this year compared to previous elections.

Thomas: "Challenging has found its way into the election law far beyond its original intended use."

Points to parts of state law, saying there's a "big so what here. The ballots challenged -- so what? No administrative body has an ability to do anything with that."

Thomas said only thing that could happen is if there's a contested election that comes down to contested ballots, a judge would put voters who cast these ballots under oath to see how they voted.

Says he's never seen this happened in 40 years of working elections in Michigan

And for some reason, my stream of the Senate hearing has gone dead. Trying to find it again.

To summarize cmt meeting thus far:

Longtime elections administrator Chris Thomas methodically and patiently walked through how Detroit counted absentee ballots, refuted conspiracy theories and made suggestions about how to improve the process in the future

Alright, found a feed.

McBroom still asking Thomas questions about processing absentee ballots.

Now Sen. Lucido asking Thomas questions about his role with Detroit.

Lucido asks for Thomas job description, doesn't let him answer question. Very intent on finding if there was a job description. Thomas says "I don't know" if there was a job description.

Lucido: Are you aware of any training manuals from the city of Detroit for workers?

Thomas says no.

Lucido asks if he was ever provided a training manual. Thomas says he was provided steps for tables at the counting board, but not a manual

Little unclear what Lucido is driving at with testimony. He appears to be trying to refute Thomas' earlier testimony, but is very interested in the nature of Thomas' contract with Detroit.

Sounds like Lucido is conflating parts of law about how absentee ballots are stored. Thomas argues he's not looking at the right parts of the law.

Lucido now asking what "West Grand Boulevard" is used for in Detroit.

That's where the city Department of Elections is located. Again, not sure what Lucido is getting after in this questioning.

Thomas getting a little exasperated with Lucido: "Oh, we're going to go there."

Lucido now asking what Thomas learned in law school. Again, conflating "chain of custody" pertaining to evidence and election law.

Lucido asking Thomas about affidavits filed about allegations of misconduct at TCF Center.

As Thomas has repeatedly said, he says "I don't think they understood what the procedures are."

"That somebody writes it in an affidavit doesn't make it accurate."

Lucido is channeling his inner prosecutor for this hearing, grilling Thomas as though he were on the stand in a courtroom.

Lucido was recently elected to serve as Macomb County prosecutor.

Lucido now asking questions about Wayne County election. Thomas was hired to assist with Detroit elections.

Lucido asking Thomas about a ballot secrecy container. Thomas says there wasn't such a thing until this year. Keep in mind, Thomas retired from the state in 2017 but came back this fall to work for Detroit.

Thomas, to Lucido: "You can continue just yelling at me."

Lucido does start to yell, Chairman McBroom intervenes and tells everyone to calm down.

Again, it's not clear Lucido is correctly interpreting the law.

Sen. Lana Theis, R-Brighton, asking thorough questions about qualified voter file, election challengers and ballot tabulation process.

Notes TCF challengers who testified complained they couldn't see monitor and what workers were doing at the same time as they counted ballots.

Theis notes law says clerk needs to post by 9 pm the number of absentee ballots received. Asked if this is posted in real time or where it's posted, Thomas says he believes there are multiple postings but he's not positive.

Theis asks how many absentee ballot counting boards are not recountable. Thomas says they don't know, and would only know after opening absentee ballot containers.

Approximately 70% of absentee precincts were out of balance, although majority of all precincts were balanced

Thomas: "Balancing has never been a statutory requirement to canvass."

Says it became a heightened concern years ago when it became clear that 30% of precincts across the state were not recountable.

Thomas says on Monday, neither party had the full number of total challengers.

On Tuesday, there was no sign out for challengers because under state law, challengers (and others at absentee counting sites) had to be sequestered.

Thomas says he believes there were plenty of challengers at TCF on Wednesday, noting "many" tables were not operating because most of the ballots had been counted at that point.

Also notes challengers were roaming in groups, could have spread out.

Theis asks Thomas what the basis was for not allowing more challengers in at TCF.

Thomas says the aisles at TCF were cramped due to the number of challengers

Theis: There were probably 100 of them there, and they were merely standing in the aisles?

Thomas: On Wednesday, yes

Sen. MacDonald: To your knowledge, were votes cast by anyone who was deceased?

Thomas: No

MacDonald: To your knowledge, were ballots cast by anyone not using a legitimate address?

Thomas: Not that I'm aware of

Sen. MacDonald: Were all party challengers, regardless of party, treated equally? He says he believes GOP challengers were bullied (no Democratic challengers testified).

Thomas says he has no knowledge of that.

MacDonald: Do you have knowledge of anything? McBroom scolds him

Sen. MacDonald asking about computers connected to the internet. Thomas already testified about this, and reiterates there was a hotspot in the center of the room.

Sen. MacDonald: Should there be more transparency in how we tabulate ballots and process elections? Should there be more cameras?

Thomas: It doesn't bother me if there are more cameras.

Sen. Irwin, the long Democrat on the committee, says he doesn't have a question. He thanks Thomas for his service to the state, noting the pair have clashed in the past regarding election questions.

Irwin: "Your testimony today I think sealed the deal" in debunking conspiracies

Sen. Sylvia Santana, D-Detroit, is also at the hearing. She's not on the committee generally, but asking questions of Thomas about Detroit sharing information prior to election about how people vote with an absentee ballot.

Santana asking about ballot security at TCF.

Thomas says additional security measures added in October, through bill legislature passed that allowed pre-processing of absentee ballot freep.com/story/news/pol…

Thomas now talking about absentee ballots and how they were received in Detroit. Said he was told there were days more ballots were received in drop boxes than via the mail.

Not a huge surprise, given concerns with postal service in Detroit and elsewhere

McBroom asks Thomas about whether the TCF Center doors were locked while military ballots were counted.

Thomas said he left at 9 pm and at that time, no doors were locked.

McBroom: There's no physical connection between local network and computers connected to the internet at the center of the room?

Thomas: That's correct. Other computers lack ability to connect to the internet.

McBroom asks about downloading e pollbooks on computers not connected to the internet. Thomas notes the books are downloaded using "sticks" (USB drives)

McBroom asks about the "Chicago warehouse" that Melissa Carone repeatedly referenced.

Thomas says he has no idea what she's talking about.

Theis asking about the ballots that weren't entered correctly re: date received, requiring AV counting boards to "backdate" ballots. Theis asks how the satellite location could successfully upload the file without adding the date it was received. Thomas says he's not sure

Lucido says he's reviewed Thomas' affidavit that he supplied with several local lawsuits.

Lucido keeps asking about the nature of Thomas' employment. Again, unclear why

Lucido trying to go through Thomas' affidavit. Thomas says he needs a break (he's been going for about three hours).

McBroom intervenes, asks another few questions, then questions for Thomas are complete.

Committee taking a break, but sounds like others will testify

Worth noting Thomas was allowed to testify virtually today. Last week, Senate Oversight Committee had hours of in-person testimony

Committee back in session. A man who says he was an attorney at TCF Center. I believe his is Tim Griffin.

He's arguing number in poll book didn't match ballot sent to different voters in the city. Unclear how often he believes this happened or what evidence he has

Looks like Griffin is an attorney with the Thomas More Society, as reported by Bridge bridgemi.com/michigan-gover…

Thomas More Society is a conservative organization suing over the election freep.com/story/news/pol…

Griffin says he was TCF and heard someone announce that 38,000 ballots came in during the night (I believe he means Tuesday night/Wednesday morning).

Griffin was also sworn in before testifying

Griffin says while clerks checked signatures ahead of time, "it doesn't mean it's actually been verified as the actual ballot that has been submitted to that voter."

Clerks do this with pre-processing as well freep.com/story/news/pol…

Lucido: "How many of these ballots did you see where they were matching up in the book, or what they wanted to put down in the book."

Griffin says he only saw this on Monday.

!!!No on counted ballots on Monday!!!

That would be illegal in Michigan.

Lucido asking why Griffin, a private attorney for a conservative organization who is not a Michigan voter, would be prevented from walking around TCF Center while Thomas, a consultant for the city of Detroit, would be allowed to walk around.

Next up, Phil Mayor, an attorney with the ACLU of Michigan.

He says he and other ACLU attorneys compiled 30 affidavits and submitted them to the committee.

Mayor says in summary, 4 themes emerged:
- None of 30 people said they saw fraud or misconduct by poll workers
- All 30 said they saw "rude" conduct by Republican challengers, including screaming at staff."Several affiants described the atmosphere as feeling like a plantation."

- third theme: Affiants say there were many challengers for Republicans and Democrats.
- fourth theme: Challengers systematically sought to disenfranchise voters without cause.

Mayor is reading from or summarizing affidavits. He citing specific people in some cases

Mayor: GOP challengers were instructed to and did at times challenge every ballot.

Notes people were chanting and banging on windows outside the counting area.

Mayor says if there is anything to investigate, it's the "coordinated conduct" of challengers at TCF

Lucido asks first question. Asks about how affidavits were compiled and people found to find people.

Mayor says affidavits were largely taken over the phone.

Lucido: Did the ACLU have a stake in the election process?

Mayor: The ACLU traditionally takes a non-partisan role in elections. Says he was at TCF on Wednesday from about 9:30 am to 11:30 am

Lucido: "Forget the affidavits"

Lucido asking Mayor what he witnessed. Mayor says he saw at least the same number of GOP challengers as Democratic challengers.

Says he saw an orderly process

Mayor, in response to McBroom: Affiants are alleging many challenges were not filed at TCF Center for legitimate purposes

Next speaker: Sofia Nelson, a Detroit resident and attorney who worked at TCF Center.

Nelson worked overnight from Tuesday to Wednesday morning.

"The tenor of the room was that of cooperation, kind of we're all in this together."

Nelson: At no point was the Republican challenger challenge any ballots while I was there.

"I experienced people doing their best. At no point did I experience any form of fraud or manipulation or nefariousness." Says she and her table processed hundreds of ballots that night

Nelson said table worked well together and everyone did their job.

"Democracy is fragile. Democracy requires work. And one of the elements of an effective Democracy is trust and faith in our institutions."

Says her faith/trust was strengthened through her experience

Nelson: The idea you could rig an election in Detroit as an election worker is "patently absurd."

The idea you could coordinate a massive fraud campaign goes against logic, Nelson said.

Nelson: At no time did I witness any kind of bullying. There were certainly, from my point of view, more Republican challengers than Democratic challengers.

Lucido asks Nelson about time at TCF. Nelson says like many others, she saw through the news that scene had changed from after she left.

Asks about number of ballots that needed to be duplicated while Nelson was there. Nelson says two or three

Lucido asks Nelson about her training. Nelson says she was trained at TCF Center, says she believes she was trained by people who worked for the clerks office and the training lasted several hours. Included processing sample ballots.

McBroom asks Nelson about Griffin allegation about numbers in poll book being changed.

Nelson says she did not see that, although she was not in the seat that scanned the envelope and pulled up voter on the pollbook.

Edith Lee-Payne, a supervisor at the TCF Center, testifying next.

Said she started at 530 am Tuesday and left at 930 pm., returning 530 am Wednesday and leaving at approximately 4 am Thursday.

She says she had training, has a manual and would provide it to the committee

Lee-Payne: Training lasted about 20 hours.

Says she as at counting board 28, processed more than 2,000 ballots. She said there were 5 inspectors. First person scanned envelope, looked for signature and date on envelope.

Scan ballot, name comes up on computer.

Lee-Payne is walking through the process she followed for absentee ballot process.

This is what Daniel Baxter (an elections official who helped the city) explained to the media ahead of Election Day

https://twitter.com/nwarikoo/status/1322019559965155330

Lee-Payne: "We were trained to be as transparent as possible."

Describing duplicate ballot process. She's gone way over her allotted 5 minutes but Sen. McBroom says she can continue

Lee-Payne says she's insulted by allegations of fraud. "Everything was done by the book."

(Testimony continues. Two additional people have testified in support of largely peaceful operations at TCF on Monday and Tuesday before issues culminated on Wednesday, after most ballots were already counted.)

Lucido asking another person questions about testimony from another election worker.

He keeps reminding people they are under oath, or noting that people have provided sworn testimony.

Lucido noting that people testifying today had different experiences at TCF.

He's interrupted every witnesses he's questioned today.

Lucido and McBroom noting that people testifying have different ideas of when the room became more hostile toward election workers and when GOP challengers allegedly started to act inappropriately.

Lucido, again interrupting a person testifying, is told by Chairman McBroom to let him try to answer the question about the law.

We're more than 5 hours in to the hearing.

McBroom lets Lucido know the person was trying to answer the question when the senator interrupted him

Mary Ellen Gurewitz, general counsel for the Michigan Democratic Party, testifying now.

"Challengers from the Republican Party...sought to create both chaos and the perception of chaos." Says this was done to help support lawsuits

Sen. Theis asks Gurewitz questions about Democrats previously pointing out problems w/elections operations in Detroit.

She says "perhaps race isn't the motivating factor," pointing to Lt. Gov. Garlin Gilchrist's criticisms of Detroit clerk Janice Winfrey freep.com/story/news/loc…

Lucido asks Gurewitz if she helped recruit Thomas to oversee election in Detroit. She said no.

It's no secret the Wayne County Board of Canvassers asked Michigan SOS to help w/Nov. election. SOS announced Thomas would help in early September freep.com/story/news/pol…

McBroom asking Gurewitz about poll challengers. He said it was his understanding that it's "mutually assured destruction," arguing challengers from each party observe the process because they don't trust the other party.

Gurewitz disagrees.

Lots of questions about what challengers can and cannot do. Here are the rights of election challengers, as outlined by the Michigan Bureau of Elections michigan.gov/documents/SOS_…

McBroom asks whether rules related to COVID-19 conflict with state law pertaining to what poll challengers have a right to do.

Definitely a lot of testimony from poll challengers saying they weren't allowed to observe/workers saying challengers didn't observe social distancing

McBroom: It's difficult to know how everyone is supposed to have access to information if they're also required to remain a certain distance away from people.

"It seems problematic to me, at best."

Gurewitz calls out the Legislature, arguing lawmakers should be acutely attuned to COVID-19. She points to Giuliani testifying last week and since testing positive for the disease

McBroom: "This body wasn't even involved." He means Giuliani testified in House, not Senate

Erica Peresman, the voter protection director for the Michigan Democratic Party, is the last person to speak. She was also at TCF for several days immediately after the election.

Peresman: In years past, the Democratic party has not focused on absentee counting boards. But everything has changed. We knew we needed to be in these absentee counting rooms.

Peresman: Based on the questions that Republican challengers were asking, of Democrats and election inspectors, they did not seem to have as much information as we did about the absentee counting process.

McBroom asks whether it would be proper to present a challenge if a ballot presented does not have the same number as the ballot ascribed to a particular voter.

Peresman said that absolutely could be basis for challenge, but the law clearly notes challenged ballots get counted

McBroom notes that last week, all the testimony alleged all bad behavior came from Dems.

This week, he says testimony indicates all bad behavior came from GOP.

Almost only GOP testified last week, almost only Dems this week.

Behavior in no way indicative/proof of fraud

It is perhaps indicative of the fact there is no uniform challenger training in the state.

Several Republican challengers noted in affidavits they received 15 to 20 minutes of training. Peresman testified Democratic challengers had more training

Lucido asking Peresman questions, noting she said Democrats did not challenge specific ballots, only procedure.

Lucido asks if that's indicative the election system is flawed. She says no; "it's not our responsibility as...the Michigan Democratic party to cure ballots."

Peresman said Democratic training focused largely on what challenges are admissible and what were not.

Lucido says there was an "extreme amount" of testimony about dates on ballots. It's Jan. 1, 1900 date Thomas spoke to at length today.

Peresman: "There was no there, there"

Here's my early recap of today's (clearly ongoing) hearing: Detroit elections expert defends TCF operations, refutes fraud allegations during Senate meeting freep.com/story/news/pol…

Alright, committee hearing complete. McBroom suggested today's hearing would be shorter than the 7-hour marathon from last week.

This one lasted about 6 hours. freep.com/story/news/pol…