Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good morning. This is @HelenaCoates2 for the Webberly tribunal - 24.09.21. Now Week 9 and Day 4 of Dr Webberley's (DW) examination.
Yesterday ended with a call to resume this morning 9.30am.

Simon Jackson (SJ) to finish his examination re Bevin (said: 'no doubt DW will want to criticise their approach').
Patient A and Patient A's mum around 11.30am and Dr Schumer (witness) in the afternoon.

I will be scribbling notes and tweeting as I can. It may come in bursts - so bare with me if it doesn't exactly happen live today.

Now being advised a 10 o'clock start as GMC are having some issues a their end.

Whilst we wait, since we are expecting to finish questions regarding the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, I will list relevant allegations relating to this aspect.

25.04.2017 DW was suspended from medical performers list and failed to notify Frosts pharmacy of this.

In July 2017 a review was initiated by A Bevan Uni Health Board (AB Health board) - into DW 's on-line prescribing practices

Allegations are that DW repeatedly frustrated the Health Board' s attempts to carry out the review in that...

DW consistently challenged the review where there was no basis to do so, in that she questioned the
1- terms of reference
2- competence of investigators
3- training of investigators
4- the proposed CQC methodology

DW continued to challenge the review - Ivestigators visited DW's home on 5.10.2017 and DW continued to prevent progress on the review

DW failed to advise the Health Board throughout period of review of open GMC investigations against her

During review DW knew she was subject of open GMC investigations and required to inform Health Board of ongoing GMC investigations

DW's conduct as set out in para 21b was dishonest by reason of para 22.

Hearing connecting now...

Being told there is still confusion over documents.
Simon Jackson wants to check all have the screen shots from the spreadsheet that was previously being discussed.

Chair advises that it is coming.

Ian Stern has also sent two pages which others have not received.
SJ requests documents are simply sent directly to his email which he uses for sending correspondence in the other direction.

SJ asks to return to doc C42b which we were looking at yesterday.
Log 🆔's, log dates, user 🆔.

DW's user 🆔 number is listed.

DW talks about it being the individual prescription code that is her identity on the spreadsheets.
Asks us to look at line 906, where new patient is inserted 16.03.17. With initial TL

DW believes that is Pharmacy worker Tina Lord.
DW- Excuse me if I have got that wrong. Is it only user ID 17 that would be picked up on this spreadsheet?
If I said to Tina to check with patient how she was doing with the migraine tablets...

DW - it's confusing. There are lines on here, 14th March, activity that I recognise. I would have logged on and accepted the questionnaire. Inserted a new patient - I don't recognise this sort of entry and I think Mr. Gale was also confused about some aspects in his questions.

SJ asks if she has the papers. Day 27 - 01.09. Pg 16.
Log 🆔
I suggest to you that Mr. Gale was not confused about this being the log code for all contacts

DW - I don't think this is the only confusion - there was also confusion about 2 doctors would be making notes at the same time (myself and my husband).

SJ - Do you accept that you can't Ave an accurate memory of when you logged in or not?

DW goes over some of the spread sheet explaining normal patterns of behaviour. Logging in and completing questionnaires. Logging in/logging out.

She points towards "for eg sections 27-18" a series of log ins.
Dw- I don't remember that day and I don't remember what I did. Clinical activity? In these 12000 entries there are entries I recall quite clearly, but there are others that look strange to me.

SJ- Take the opportunity to find these areas where you want to explain. Not trying to be obstructive.

We wait for DW to find specific reference. IS thinks he can find it quicker. DW finds it...

DW - sorry it took so long.
Line number is 300 - I only have my word for it. I find it very difficult to understand how I inserted that patient note

There is some talk about what it was that Gale was/ was not confused about during previous discussions about the spreadsheet of log ins.
SJ - Gale wasn't confused that it was possible for both yourself and your husband to log on at the same time. He wasn't aware - was made aware

DW- Yes I do recall. Line number 9, patient MC, an entry at 12.03 18th May. If you have a look. STI testing or buy a kit.

On the 18th May we travelled to Spain. I know this is slightly bizarre evidence. We were travelling in a car from airport to a restaurant -

All I am saying

Cont..

Is that some of these entries are confusing to me. It just doesn't seem that me or my husband would have been logged on at this time.

SJ- Why is this being produced now and not before?

DW - Well there was Mr Gale's witness statement from 2017, then another statement 3/4 weeks ago.
At that stage I went through theses spreadsheets and had a look, but now is when you are asking me questions about it.
You didn't/ were not asking me about this until now.

SJ - Docs C 39,40,41 - doc C56 screen shot - was that material that you were able to access or request?
DW says something about entries that were unusual.

SJ- You would have been able to.., if you had found information that you might rely on.. Might you have raised it before?

DW - I'm only being asked questions about this now. At the time I was preparing for [ defending myself].

SJ - Earlier you say, these entries represent clinical work.
At C56 - beyond the 2 entries referenced. So there are no entries after 26th April that have your user number?

DW - That's a very binary statement, if you like.
The entries that I definitely recognise as my own... May - I wasn't in a good place - It doesn't fit with my usual activity.

DW cont..
If you asked me the question, 'Do you think it was me or do you not think it was me?' - It doesn't seem like it is me.

There are other examples where it doesn't look like me

DW says that there is nobody else who can enter your prescription code. Last time entered was 13th April.

Ian Stern intervenes.
IS- Allegation is whether or not DW was under a duty of notifying others she was under investigation.

SJ- Question is whether she is continuing to provide medical work.
IS- I hadn't realised this was so nuanced - if this is the GMC's case, of course I don't object to carrying on examination.

Chair - no objection.

SJ- What is the nature of... Authorising something to happen /asking for information - it involves you making a decision about what is to be done.
Start at the top of the doc. Most recent is May, which is beyond April. There is date and time and user no.

SJ- There is the system recording that you're logged in.
You are not satisfied that it is you?

DW - I know why I logged in - that's the termination date of contract with pharmacy. So I anticipate I was logged in to terminate/last (invoice?).

DW says that you can see from the spreadsheet that as soon as patient no. is inserted it's set to query and declined.

SJ - If I were to conclude medical decisions were being made? That is medical advice - Is that you?

DW - Yes.
SJ - line 15? Is that you?
DW - Declined - that's a systems response - set t query and declined.
SJ - And if we look at no. 12- medical decision making?
DW - That looks like advice from a doctor.

DW cont..
- Mike Webberley... Myself and husband would not have been able... If I was going to go to prison on this evidence, I would have to say I did not make this entry. Driving in a car on the South Coast of Spain...
If we'd have done a search for user id...as you see on 13th

DW cont..

On 12th April there are a large batch of questionnaires. There's a strange set of log ins which I don't really accept.

SJ - Somebody else has taken over your log ins from the 13th April?

SJ - The 2 that you query as not being you are not after 25th April are they? They're much earlier.
DW- Yes.

SJ - Looking at heads of charge, 20. If I was to suggest you were concealing that you were suspended in Wales..worried about not being able to continue with Frost's pharmacy?
DW - Deny vehemently.

SJ - Aneurin Bevan Health Board. Allegation is that you repeatedly frustrated attempts to carry out their review.
IS- (interject) Important words are 'where there was no basis to do so'.

SJ - Of course. At time of July 2017, do you accept that there had already been CQC investigation re Dr. Matt by health inspectorate Wales?

(there is something more about DW application to register)

SJ - you were being asked to stop operating as you put patients above the [...? sorry too fast here]

DW - I was attempting to re-register with HIW.
I didn't stop providing services - Yes.

SJ - You were interviewed under caution. I don't want to take you back through all evidence, but on your experience of being investigated, or inspected, did you have any issue about CQC inspection process?

DW- They ask you before hand for the info they want to see -which patient records and which protocols -and they provide a safety report.
SJ- Para 73 -Guidance/duty to cooperate. There is a duty to cooperate.
DW-Certainly.

SJ- D o you accept that the personnel were competent and independent? -You wanted to see proof of what training they had done?
DW- I did question on whether it was fair -took advice and had letter written on my behalf to the Health Board.

SJ- 5th Oct - Every question you had asked of the Board, you were never accepting the answers you were given.
DW questions the Health boards own protocols, pointing to appendice D39 'supporting doctors to provide safer health care.
DW- My own concerns about the HB's process..

DW cont..
or D40 of EPASS - 'How to carry out a local performance investigation.' pg.12: Managing the investigation starts when terms of reference are finalised. Appoint case manager, compare with CQC process - gave notice, outlined what they would be looking at..

DW - ..But I was missing terms of reference - I asked -Didn't feel confident that I had got them. Hadn't felt reference panel had been transparent or fair
SJ- Bevan Health Board -an established system that you were required to cooperate with.

SJ- You had no business to try to put barriers to their investigation.
DW- They failed to use their established system - Local performance- I don't think they followed their system and I was seeking fairness.

SJ asks to turn to C54-
IS- Is that the bundle you produced for cross examination?
SJ- pg 105. These are docs you will recognise from earlier proceedings- produced by yourself. Do you recognise them?
DW-..... I do yes -sorry I was on mute.

SJ- In context of Patient A, where there was a question about biological or step father regards concent.
Was there a policy?
DW- Shame this document as it doesn't seem to be printed out properly.

DW- In terms of my practice in regards consent I would look at those who were close to the patient.
SJ- Staff check list 2017, in terms of approach to the treatment/safeguarding were there any policies at the time of these patients that would have been formalised?

DW- Sorry, I don't understand.
SJ- Consent policy?

DW- If you look at the chronology of how the patient -how in terms of PatientA to PatientC you can see how the protocol developed- I think you asked me and I couldn't find it at the time

(DW has apparently got some feedback at her end now)
I explained how the protocol developed.
SJ- Was it really just each patient managed individually without reference to an organised plan?
DW- Patient C's records, description if you like, of how the system works.

DW- Mistakes made are learnt from and protocols are improved. Patient A's mother given a seperate email
/ telephone contact for eg.
SJ- Extract at 119- what is that person a DR. of?
DW- Dr. of psychology.

SJ- Did she provide care for any adolescent -what services was she providing for your team?
DW- I explain about my information gathering. How I built up a larger (network?)

SJ- Was that role -was the involvement of this Psychologist something that happened right at the outset, or were they brought in because somebody requested counseling?
DW- Part of the support includes therapy.

DW cont.. (read from her Practice blurb?) We have lovely therapists you can speak to on the phone, Or I can put you in touch with counsellors locally, please notify us if you are receiving ongoing support.
We use a bespoke system for each patient.

DW - This Dr, would have been available at any time the patient needed them.
SJ- On assessment and treatment. You didn't engage a counsellor as part of patient A's assessment?

DW-Assessment isn't about gender if - it's all about background. My assessment was that medical intervention was the first step.
SJ- Patient A's records--refer to (Shelly?) for counselling /support. At that time

DW - at that time I had assessment from Tavistock. I had my own assessment and of Dr. Mike Webberley.
He wasn't just a gastroenterologist - he had experience of Endocrinology.

SJ - Did you examine efficacy of seeking advice from your spouse rather than an independent specialist view?
DW- You put emphasis on fact he is my husband - his experience is far broader than gastroenterology, eg, hypo gonadal patients..

.. DW - My professional decision was to discuss with him- which is what I did
SJ - Are you aware of good medical practice? Conflicts of interest; family;business interests? Why in certain circumstances a G. P. Seeks independent advice?
Judgement to prescribe, 2nd ind opinion?

DW - I'm aware of conflicts of interest. Professional and objective. I wanted his opinion on the right treatment for my patient. My interests have not been financial. My primary duty as a doctor to help my patient.

Chair - Stern have you any further questions?
IS- have you got all the papers? Does DW want to send through info about her trip to Spain?

(He refers to skeleton argument at submission. Para 18-20)

IS- I thought there was a requirement to indicate - 25th April decision, now the GMC's care. 18th of May travel is now relevant.

Chair- Do you want to put this material in by way of cross examination? Are you asking if DW wants to put it in?

IS- There's been a flurry of emails.

Chair wants to take a break and asks if IS is likely to be a long time in cross examination..?

Is - just those two issues.
SJ- In light of the fact now contended, that DW was put of juristiction, are we able to obtain evidence of whether her ID no. has been 'stealthed' after April?

Chair - Re-examination to follow when we reconvene. Whether we are on course for patient A's mother we shall have to see. Come to that when DW has given her evidence.
DW- I would like to submit that evidence please.

Break.
Reconvened close to 12:00
Looking at D53/54 but still waiting for travel docs.

IS - Don't know if they've reached SJ or not. Nod or something?.... No?
As you can see in overview 23rd September, MRCQ examination is requirement..

.. IS- does this tie in with questions you were being asked yesterday?

DW - I don't have the documents.

SJ - Need to examine the provenance of these, downloaded of a website.

IS- Yes. They have been downloaded off a website.

DW - I don't think I have it.

Chair - does that mean you can't proceed with this line of q's?

DW - I have them now

IS- you have the MRQC/MRCGP exam docs.. Just asking you to look at this and to say whether this chimes in with q's you were being asked?
(DW agrees)
Now looking at the Royal college of G. Ps pdf link on membership enquiries and use of 'post nominals'.

IS - This was from 2017/16. RCPG had a rejigg in 2018,but use of post nominals recognises your commitment and advises about post nominals (more detail here from the Pdf but unclear something also about afte 2021 it was then misleading fora non member to use the post nominal).

(I wasn't able to follow clearly about this post nominal stuff and then we were back to the fact that DW 's travel docs hadn't yet been received by SJ...)

Chair - We can start with our tribunal q's.

SJ - if I could just indicate that they have now landed. But I don't have a problem continuing on with tribunal questions.
IS- no objections.

We now start with panel members questions beginning with Medical panel member (MP)
MP asks about transgender care and training. When did get involved with this type of care?

DW - At Birmingham University. (She talks about communication skills - struggling with mic).

DW - We had a group of simulated patients that we used to train with on consultation that we used to help us.
Then Wales from 2011. No service for a time in between.
Then I had 2 transgender patients that came to see me and I started investigating... Pausity of care..

... DW - Also digital practices. Other things are done online. That's when my interests started snowballing.

MP- when did you treat your 1st patient. A child or an adult?

DW - In my general practice. They were around age 50. Normally treated at specialist clinics- realised it would be in London, 2 trains, 'don't worry I'll do it.'
You can see the chronology of development. Leaflets /signposting. Patients were asking me to help them. Mainly adults.

..DW Cont - But younger started to come.

MP - Doc 20 statement, pg. 18. Guidelines on training says, 'gain specialist knowledge by practicing and gaining courses'.

DW - 1st specialist training (2020) was behind a pay wall. It's more an introduction to a theme, but at the time I was learning I looked for courses. On sexual health specialist training the issue of trans health didn't even feature.

MP - Apprenticeships?

DW - Clinics desperate for new recruits, field stretched in capacity but not the opportunities for apprenticeships. History showed that they didn't welcome private practitioners. Not very friendly. So I was delighted to meet Dr. Timmings.

MP - Research? How did you satisfy your learning needs?

DW - Read anything and everything I could get my hands on. WPATH, Endo Soc, NHS interim protocols, college of psychiatry - I Looked at the references that made up the chapters. It fascinated me.

DW - I loved reading on it. The women and equalities report. The spike to service users and supporters, I wanted to get an idea.
I was also keen on digital tech, and learning. Keen to reproduce what I was learning. I was sharing my learning as a writer (Huff post).

MP - Reflective learning?

DW - Appraisal, reflective learning, a lot of that document speaks to what I learned and reflected.

MP - At that time, of the appraisal, what was your main job? Practicing?

DW - I had an episode of physical I'll health. When I was recuperating it gave me the opportunity to do learning, reading and the digital work.
2016 was when I was locuming and getting back to health.

MP asks about the Audit. Not able to give more detail. This panel members sound is really poor.

DW - I presented in a poster-Lynn Fraser, ex president of WPATH -benefits of tele health to trans patients, geographical & other factors, & satisfaction of consulting via tele med

MP - can you tell us about models of practice, what's the difference [between different models of practice?]

DW - In the UK it's often called a gatekeeping model of care....

... DW - That's how it was described by the WESC. Drs. are gatekeepers to access of medical intervention. Check lists: are people transgender enough?
I wanted to make it an assessment of needs. Not whether patient wears a dress or passes--which was part of the assessment process

DW - many found it very hard to travel to appointments, sit in waiting rooms. So access to tele care - results of audit were very positive.

Medical panel member asks if any significant 'events' had prompted DW to reflect.

DW - significant events related to social aspect. Many Profs. don't understand.
Difficult situations - a mother threatened for allowing child access to care. There were no side effects, no harm to

.. DW -.. patients. No patients that had gone on to 2nd stage. No patients who had changed their mind.
There was a patient that committed suicide, very sad, but that was related to societal problems with their presentation not medication.

Medical panel member asks about DW s remedies to fix problems.

DW - there is break in comms because patient had gone back to the London hospital. When I realised the problem with the system I rearranged the email system to make sure I'd receive his emails.

MP - Information sharing a problem? Passing on patient accounts?

DW - My records are quite unique. Very well recorded.

.. DW - Verbatim what the patient said in letters/emails, then my thoughts on the patient. I've always maintained I write down the positive e findings, or the negative, which will have an impact.

Now Lay panel member (LP) asks questions.

LP - On Neuro diversity. What is your ability in this diagnosis?

DW - As young doctor I would never have been involved in this diagnosis. GPs would make an initial referral.
The importance is the relevance of the problem problem - or the diversity - not explaining myself v well.

LP - Would you pass this issue /concern onto a specialist?

DW - Depends what te patient wants. Some parents want help so they can get extra help from schools, others don't want the extra labels to be applied.

LP - The medicine... Testosterone to a person who is XX is rather different than giving T to somebody with a Y chromosome - in other words a male. So what about the safety of use with transgender patients?

DW - lack of longitudinal studies. People are following up. We do have evidence of those who have disorders of sexual development. When you pull all that together concensus and best practice is something we have to take into account.
Like Dr Rossenthal, 2014,

.. DW -.. looking like a very safe intervention. Balance that with risk of withholding medication.
Comforting that treatment is bio identical.
(examples given like PCO, those with higher testosterone)

Even though we don't have beautiful and excellent long term evidence.

LP mentions Olson-Kennedy's epublication. Were you able to explore things with Dr. O-K?

DW - Met at WPATH conference. Enormous queues to speak with them. She - her work was being talked about. Everybody was waiting to see what Endo Soc 2017 would say.. .

.. DW - Though clinicians would have been scared to put this down on paper. It was my knowledge and understanding at that time that patients under 16 were being treated.

LP - you accept that you didn't tell Frost's pharmacy that you were laid off?

DW - (Something about GMC) - difficult to know how the story would have unfolded.

LP - Removed from MPL - you must have said something to Frost about slowing down your workload?

DW - Spreadsheet shows how my work had tailed off. My husband took over the work. Wouldn't have caused a big problem with Frost.

LP - prescribing to under 16s. Professor Butler. What reference have you got that Butler wrote the policy?

DW - He had large input into the clinical commissioning paper on cross-sex hormones. Anyone who needed intervention at that time would have gone to Butler.

IS - Pg. 3 para 5 shoes this on Butler.

Chair - What you were offering and what you were capable of offering in terms of endocrinological treatment?
(Chair brings up Dr Klink and protocols)

DW - updated protocol distilled - Prior to start history, measurements, that sort of thing. Klink sets out protocol and destills it.
Overview: how is treatment managed by endo..
With respect to endo care with P Bs, follow up every 3 months...

... DW -.. Blood work frequent on bone density. Yearly on bone potential.

Chair - Did you offer that to patients AB&C when embarking on hormonal treatment? Were you offering an obligation to monitor in the way Klink lays out?

DW - Yes definitely "we'll follow this up in 3 months time" - satisfaction, growth, bloods. In terms of bone scans, when you work in a hospital it's easier. More difficult in general practice....

.. DW -.. 2 reasons why one might scan bones - bone density scans are only required, in California Endo Soc have different criteria, if we were worried about bone density. In terms of bone age, it doesn't actually impact on your care - not a recommendation.

Chair - So you would have followed what you thought was appropriate?

DW - Mum's would sometimes come in and ask, 'I know that they do some scans at GIDS', and we would discuss why and when that might be necessary and organise that.

On the question of bone scans DW says that 'nobody said they wanted... There was never reason to refer on this in the discussion we had with patients.

Back with SJ- conscious of time, I have a few more questions. You were asked by D. Taylor about identifying specialist courses and that you were able to find nothing - apart from formalised training that has been introduced now in 2020...

SJ -.. Would you accept that one method of learning would be from the specialists working in the field. Not just about prescription of hormones. University of Cardiff Paediatric unit, or endocrinologists - to get that opportunity to learn from people who knew more than you did?

DW- I have extensive knowledge. I didn't identify that as a learning need Mr. J.

SJ - Do you agree that you have a blind spot?
2016,there was reference there to desirability that you seek further training in the context of you being a specialist?

DW - the one person who was responsible for guidance, who was the only practitioner who could be able to provide training. There was an absence of training. There is a problem. High number of patients, low number of practitioners.

SJ - The end date of practice, 2016 - did that cessation give you the opportunity to seek training?

DW - I took every opportunity that was open to me. Internationally, certainly in America they were offering support.

SJ- was there any step that you could have had an internship to learn from the people who were working in the specialist centres?

DW - GEI, WPATH, online courses. Back in 2016 as a working mother, no opportunity to do this abroad or at home.

SJ - Prescribing experience? Specific current endocrine context?

DW - Very few in this country who have the skills and knowledge that you describe Mr. J.

SJ - Triage of those who may have ADHD? I suggest that in this context, because you are the hub of your own wheel you become the gatekeeper who limits the specialists that your patient has access to.... To you anything that a GP is not able to deal with?

DW - The kind of gatekeeping I was describing before, things like pronouns or presentation, these are the types of gatekeeping I was told people were experiencing.

SJ- transgender care / cross discipline.
None of your patients have been sent for an adexa scan?

DW - NHS commissioning - I would say to you. Difficulty of 4 Yr waiting lists for adults and 2 for children. Training courses, secondary care, primary care to welcome patients etc..if we achieved that we would achieve. Mental health and suicide rates would decrease.

SJ - Delayed puberty - why safe in transgender context? You said 'in absence of data, clinical consensus is best practice'.

DW - I don't know, but I would have wanted to say that clinical concensus & best practice is what we should use.
(reads these quotes from somewhere?) "available evidence & clinical circumstances..". "best available science")...

.. DW.. - None of the parents or patients thought to progress to specialists for bone scan.
Patient A?
Patient B, 16 yrs. History of trans id. Requesting T. Already started puberty.
Compelling reasons why gender affirming medicine should be provided for patients under 16.

SJ - going over LP members questions, and the Dr Olson-Kennedy connection. You did a podcast together. Bristol University

(there is talk about patients who would have been considered very young, such as age 12.)

SJ- in 2017 you were telling Frost pharmacy you were scaling back?

DW - I would have told Frost pharmacy that work load was too much and my husband will be taking over on the clinical work.

(Then back to the Olson-Kennedy bit still with DW)
There was a symposium 'trans net' -advancing research agenda in Trans health and medicine.

SJ - How are patients to be treated? Internal protocol? Explaining a list of things that would be happening.

..SJ-..Previously Dr. Klink says this is what we do routinely. Not 'when needed', when it is routine.

DW - The importance of investigation is when it's needed and when the results will make a difference to the decision making of care in general practice.

..DW-.. If a blood count isnt necessary I would count out that investigation. It's doing appropriate investigation.
SJ- What I'm saying to you is that the bone density is regular routine. Not if needed. That's what you should have been offering and providing.

DW- Again, there will be a difference in Primary and secondary care. From California endo soc 2009 -'what will be required is the effective [care]' -I would say that not every single patient would need to have a bone scan. ...

...DW-.. The monitoring would have to be appropriate to what we are trying to achieve, which is a natural puberty.
It is my opinion that after androgen therapy that patient had the pubertal growth spurt that was intended.

Chair - Any further q's? We are running short on time.

IS- Sunnier climbs of Spain booking confirmation for jet2 . com ?

Chair- Concerned that this is going to (lost audio)

IS- If SJ needs time to look into this?

Chair- Reality is that we'll have to adjourn for lunch to give SJ chance.

IS- Mrs A/PA were ready to start at 11:30

Chair- Adjourn and resume at 2:30. hopefully we'll finish this.

(note from your scribe. this was before lunch. now I am still typing at 22:26. apologies for my delay. I'll get there and hopefully I will finish with this!)

After lunch, 2:30ish.
Chair- booking confirmation for flight to Malaga and time log. 18th May.
We may not reach dr. Shumer. May be able to have an hour between 4-5, but if we are going to loose him..?

IS reasures tribunal that Shumer will be ready for 4 o'clock.

IS - Booking confirmation from Birmingham at 8am to Malaga.
DW- yes confirmed by my google timeline.
IS- Started very early. Timeline has you at restaurant 1:15 UK time. Did you hire a car?
DW- Yes, hired car.
IS- Then driving to restaurant- arrived 2:15 Spanish time?
DW- Yes.

SJ- Are you able to access and log on to check activity remotely whilst you are away?
DW- Possible on a phone I presume. You can log on yeah. Not sure about size of screen.
SJ - So when you arrived. 10:55 at airport. You would have been able to log on at airport.

DW- Not sure what data roaming rules were back then, but yes theoretically.

SJ- Well you spoke to us about working all Christmas. If you were minded to check?

DW- It was xmas eve..

SJ- If youn were working dilligently?

DW- Wifi in Malaga is atrocious, but I could have yes.

SJ- 6 minutes at 11:59- 12:05. The flight arrived at 11:55 Spanish time . 12:55 British time.

DW - In my own recolection unlikely, but maybe we'll never know the true answer.

IS- No further questions.

Chair- end of DW's evidence- we need to switch to private now as we go to patient A and parent.

this section is not shown to observers.

Am now going to start a new thread that resumed at 4:20 with witness Dr. Shumer