Thread by @copscampaign

The #spycopsinquiry starts again soon - for Day 9 of this set of hearings - more info at
ucpi.org.uk/hearing/ucpi-t…
You can listen to this morning's hearing via Youtube
morning

#spycops

Today we are due to hear about Richard Walker, HN368 – a summary of their evidence will be read out by a member of the Inquiry staff.

This is based on the Witness Statement he's provided to the @ucpinquiry

Walker isn't being called to give oral evidence
#spycops

@ucpinquiry You can now download some of today's exhibits and documents from the Inquiry's website
ucpi.org.uk/hearing/ucpi-t…

@ucpinquiry This includes his written statement:

ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

@ucpinquiry In it, you can read more about his career...

Walker spent 10 years as a uniformed Constable, before joining Special Branch in 1966.

First he worked on enquiries & the far-left (for which he received a Commendation) and some vetting duties.

@ucpinquiry He was promoted to Detective Sergeant in Jan 1969.

He says he spied on London's Indian and Pakistani communities and the 'extremist' groups they contained, and did airport duty at Gatwick.

@ucpinquiry He joined the SDS in September 1974, staying in the unit until 1978.

He remembers the invitation coming from Derek Brice, who he knew from Fulham police station, and suspects recommended him for the role.

@ucpinquiry In those days the Branch operated on a 'need to know' basis, so he knew very little about the #spycops unit, other than their nickname
( They were known as “the Hairies”).

@ucpinquiry As someone working in the SDS back office, he sometimes went to demos and meetings, in plain clothes, but wasn't 'undercover' as such.

He describes his role as that of Quartermaster, describing how he ran the petty cash book, and dealt with expenses.

@ucpinquiry He says the Branch was very hierarchical, and as a DS, he wasn't privy to all that was going on, he just did his job.

@ucpinquiry He recalls that training was fairly limited in Special Branch, they learnt on the job, and he doesn't think there were any manuals.

He doesn't remember any handover when he joined the SDS.

@ucpinquiry As a member of the office staff, he says the welfare part of their role was important, as the undercovers “were working in difficult conditions and with some unpleasant people”.

He went to the safe houses, and met officers face-to-face, every week.

@ucpinquiry He is proud of the work they did to support the #spycops emotionally, so they could cope with their jobs, which mostly involved talking to them.

@ucpinquiry His role was a practical, administrative one; he wasn't involved in creating false identities, or arranging accommodation

@ucpinquiry He does remember reading the #spycops handwritten reports – helping to “tidy them up” before typing, and suggesting changes to the language used to make it more formal, or grammatically correct, but not altering the substance.

@ucpinquiry After the typing pool sent them back, he sometimes signed off on them.

@ucpinquiry As well as the written reports, he would receive updates orally.

He suggests that “there was no filter” in what was collected, going on to explain that the SDS had to be careful about what was done with specific info, to avoid giving too much away.

@ucpinquiry He wasn't involved in any decisions about targeting, he says they didn't direct or steer the #spycops reporting, he didn't decide where the SDS reports were sent to, and didn't expect to receive any feedback from the 'customers'.

@ucpinquiry This would have been done by someone higher than him (eg the Detective Chief Inspector).

@ucpinquiry There is a lot more detail in his Witness Statement – you can download this from ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

@ucpinquiry Copies of all files were kept in Special Branch's huge central Registry, with some being stored temporarily in the SDS office.

@ucpinquiry He recalls being invited – along with other Special Branch officers – to a party held by the Security Services – but doesn't know why his name was on the invite list.

@ucpinquiry He still remembers feeling as though they'd all been stereotyped as “beer-drinking” policemen by their counterparts in MI5.

@ucpinquiry He sometimes accompanied undercovers on trips outside of London – such as one to Blackburn – to safeguard them and to liaise with local police forces.

@ucpinquiry He accepts that he probably would have known about the arrest of HN13, known as 'Desmond Loader' but doesn't think he was involved in dealing with it.

@ucpinquiry He says he was not aware of any officers engaging in sexual activity during their time. He says he categorically disagrees with the evidence of Graham Coates about this, and denies hearing any sexist banter

@ucpinquiry He also denies knowing of many other forms of misconduct we have heard evidence from during this Inquiry

@ucpinquiry He did know about the #spycops use of deceased children's identities, saying that the SDS didn't think their families would ever find out.

@ucpinquiry He said the SDS was a conduit for information – if they were ordered to infiltrate a target, they did so.

He says they thought they were “doing the right thing at the right time”.

@ucpinquiry After his time in the SDS he was transferred to dealing with Irish issues, retiring from the police in 1987.

@ucpinquiry The Inquiry then introduced documents relating to Lesley Willingale (HN1668), who is now deceased.

ucpi.org.uk/individuals/hn…

@ucpinquiry Today's only witness is former #spycops manager Angus McIntosh (HN244)
ucpi.org.uk/individuals/hn…
He is due to appear after the break, and audio of his evidence will be streamed via Youtube after that
#spycopsinquiry

@ucpinquiry You can now download McIntosh's first witness statement: ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
The man himself is in the room, but those following from home will only hear his voice (from 10:40 onwards)
#spycops

@ucpinquiry McIntosh joined the police as a teenaged Cadet in 1957, becoming a Constable once he turned 19, and worked in central London before joining Special Branch in 1964.

@ucpinquiry He worked in most of the Squads (incl C Squad), being promoted to Detective Sergeant and then Dectective Inspector, before being asked to join the SDS in 1976.

He was second in command in the #spycops unit.

@ucpinquiry Did he have any knowing interaction with the SDS before he joined it?
None at all

@ucpinquiry Were you aware of any 'traffic' between the SDS and any of the Squads, going in or out?
I didn't see any

@ucpinquiry There were 3 things that he learnt from his time in the wider Branch that helped him in the SDS:
knowledge of organisations which were targeted
the Branch's reporting structure
pitfalls that might befall an officer

@ucpinquiry He confirms that he was trained on police powers of entry, search and seizure when he joined the police.

But he cannot recall any further training on these when he joined Special Branch

@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
This 1979 document refers to “initial training” for SB officers – McIntosh didn't receive this – he says this course only started after he'd left the SDS.

@ucpinquiry He did attend courses at the Bramshill police training college.
He says these were “general” and didn't cover anything to do with undercover policing.

@ucpinquiry Did he have any understanding of how those police powers applied to undercover policing?

“We felt ..there wasn't a problem” suggesting that not to enter a place they'd been invited into might jeopardise an officer's cover..

@ucpinquiry Was this actually considered/ discussed/ scrutinised?
He doesn't recall this happening

@ucpinquiry The Inquiry think that when McIntosh joined the unit, it was being run by Geoffrey Craft, but he has no memory of working with him in the SDS.

@ucpinquiry Asked to explain this, he spoke about attending at least 12 weeks of training at Hendon in this period, which was standard as a newly promoted officer

@ucpinquiry Was Mike Ferguson the Detective Chief Inspector throughout your time in the SDS? Can you recall any time when he wasn't there?

McIntosh accepts that there must have been a period when Ferguson wasn't there, but can't remember more.

@ucpinquiry He said he picked up what to do at his new posting without any formal training or handover.
He thinks he continued with the existing practices of the unit.

@ucpinquiry He says he wasn't given any specific guidance about what to advise the undercovers about their conduct.

But recalls telling them that they were police officers and their behaviour had to be appropriate and in line with police regulations.

@ucpinquiry Did Ferguson talk to him about the risks of undercover policing and welfare considerations?

He made me very aware of those things, and the “high risk” entailed in the job.

@ucpinquiry Did you hear about difficulties that had arisen in the past?
"Not specific"... He claimed they'd been “catered for” since.

@ucpinquiry He recalls the existence of the black folder, and thinks it must have been useful for new recruits who came into the office on their way into the unit.

“it was full of good advice for the new officers”

@ucpinquiry However he also says he can't recall looking at it himself

Was there any managerial oversight of the contents of the folder?
He couldn't answer.

@ucpinquiry Would senior managers have picked up on any bad advice being passed down?

McIntoosh suggests they would have learnt about problems when debriefing undercovers and been able to share these to prevent others from falling “into the same trap”

@ucpinquiry Ferguson had been undercover himself and took the lead on how things should be done?
McIntosh agreed

@ucpinquiry Were officers given specific advice about drinking alcohol while undercover?

They were all police officers and had come up through the system, they knew the disciplinary process... they knew not to misbehave...

@ucpinquiry It was difficult to lead a double life
explained McIntosh

He went on to suggest that they couldn't afford to lose their licences as a result of being caught drink-driving

@ucpinquiry “So the main anxiety was about drinking and driving rather than the disinhibiting effects of alcohol in a close-knit group..? asked the Inquiry

@ucpinquiry McIntosh said this was a difficult problem - “you;re asking them to do a job which is basically quite alien to their training”

The undercovers had to fit in, but this was complicated by the fact that there were certain things they couldn't do

@ucpinquiry There was a discussion about informal, “personal” guidance – he can't recall what sort of introductory guidance new officers received – this would have been done by Ferguson.

@ucpinquiry What about sexual liaisons? In his written statement he's said that to his mind, any such relationship would have been contrary to police regulations, in particular those about discrediting the force.

@ucpinquiry Were all the officers aware of this?
McIntosh claimed that all those he spoke to were.

@ucpinquiry Did he tell the SDS officers that sex on duty was considered unacceptable and against the police regulations?

He says maybe he's old-fashioned, but expected all of these experienced policemen to know the rules without being reminded of them.

@ucpinquiry At least 8 officers are known to have been deployed during McIntosh's time

@ucpinquiry We know that Vince Harvey (HN354) had sexual relations with at least 4 women, and HN155 might have done so.

@ucpinquiry One officer has told the Inquiry that stricter guidance would have made him behave differently.

Does McIntosh think he could have been clearer or stricter?
He says he has always had a strict approach to police regulations.

@ucpinquiry It was abundantly clear that they should not take part in any crimes – other than minor acts like flyposting – while undercover...

@ucpinquiry Was this advice just given to them before their deployment, or throughout?
Throughout

Was this done formally or informally?
He thinks Ferguson would sometimes talk to them about this individually, but also spoke to the group about such things.

@ucpinquiry We then saw a Security Services note ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
about a meeting attended by McIntosh, Ferguson and Trevor Butler

@ucpinquiry Ferguson is said to have commented about the SDS's ability to “insulate their sources” from criminal prosecution.

He says it''s the first time he's seen that paragraph.

The Inquiry point out that he's mentioned it in his written statement, saying he doesn't recall it.

@ucpinquiry He is clear that he would not have authorised any unlawful conduct, except for minor offences

Mitting asked if he's have drawn the line at bill-posting and he said he would consider that to be “all right”.

@ucpinquiry No permission was required before an officer took on a position of responsibility within a target group, but there would always have been a discussion about it. Does he recall Mike Ferguson's attitude towards this?

@ucpinquiry “It wouldn't have been discouraged” - but they advised undercovers not to take up roles which might lead to things like conspiracy in future.

@ucpinquiry Before you joined the unit you didn't know about its purpose. Were you given any briefing about its purpose?

@ucpinquiry Did you think there were any limits to what intelligence should be gathered?
No, he denies there being any boundaries

Did they just 'hoover up' everything?
To some extent, yes.

That was up to those who requested the information.

@ucpinquiry His Branch experience meant that he had a good idea where this intelligence was going.
The other SDS officers would have known this too – they'd all served in Special Branch.

@ucpinquiry Who made the decisions about targets and tasking?

The senior managers (Chief Superintendents) of the Branch's various Squads. With input from the Security Services.

@ucpinquiry He can't recall being given a target by the A8 (uniformed public order unit).
“We fed them; they didn't feed us”

@ucpinquiry The Walthamstow branch of the SWP was infiltrated – why that one? Was it purely for geographical reasons?
Yes

@ucpinquiry He's said that he was too junior to be party to “high level policy decisions” like the one not to infiltrate the far right.
He recalls they were very violent and often involved in crime; this made it difficult and dangerous for #spycops

@ucpinquiry He added that they were able to gather information about the right-wing from the left-wing groups, who were interested enough in them to gather intelligence themselves.

@ucpinquiry He can't recall any requests coming from the Security Services directly into the SDS.

He would expect them to come in via a SB Squad, usually C Squad.

@ucpinquiry This was sometimes a verbal request, and would be added to a minute sheet.

How often did these come in?
He can't recall.

@ucpinquiry There were more questions about the chain of communication..

He had daily meetings with the Superintendent so these sorts of things could be discussed verbally then.

@ucpinquiry Were the SDS able to decline a request?
Yes, we had to if we didn't have anyone able to get that information.

@ucpinquiry As far as he knows they never got tasking requests directly from A8. #

Sometimes they communicated directly about numbers – usually when time was of the essence – by phone.

@ucpinquiry Problems could be dealt with internally – they didn't need to be reported to more senior officers outside of the SDS.

@ucpinquiry Exploring the unit's autonomy...

if someone was going to be withdrawn, was that run by a higher-level senior manager?

He said the decision was made within the unit – the S squad Superintendent would be informed of the change but not always given all the details.

@ucpinquiry What about the direction given to a new undercover – eg HN98 was deployed into the SWP to 'replace' another officer – was that kind of decision made in-house, or signed off by senior management?

@ucpinquiry They would know and that would have been discussed in the daily meetings. They would accept the Chief Inspector's advice.

@ucpinquiry HN106 was instructed to find a far-left group to target himself, not given a specific group
That would have been an internal instruction .

@ucpinquiry Sometimes the #spycops travelled outside of London
We heard that this would definitely have needed senior management authorisation.

@ucpinquiry ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
This is a note from Craft about SDS offiicers taking part in a demo in Blackburn. McIntosh and DS Walker were sent along, to keep an eye on the undercovers and 'safeguard' them.

@ucpinquiry What would local police have been told?
There was liaison with the local Special Branch and the Chief Constable would have been informed.

@ucpinquiry We then saw a letter of thanks, received after the demo:
ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…
What 'assistance' did they provide?
He recalls sitting in an office up there, hoping none of the undercovers had been injured.

@ucpinquiry In his written statement he mentioned recruitment...

He was involved in recruitment, again not a formal process but based on personal recommendations from within the 'family' and character references sought from other senior SB officers.

@ucpinquiry He wanted “stable, reliable people, especially those who were amateur dramatics enthusiasts, as effectively we were asking the officers to be actors” - ideally “mentally relaxed and dependable”.

@ucpinquiry Asked more about seeking references from other officers...
They spoke to their senior officers but not their contemporaries

@ucpinquiry – because Special Branch was small and full of cliques, he said – you wouldn't get a good assessment, of real value, from someone in that man's clique - he thought the back office staff could get good information.

@ucpinquiry The rest of Special Branch didn't know what the SDS were doing; they just knew that sometimes people disappeared into it and were seen looking scruffy.

@ucpinquiry Reputations depended on the individual and how much they talked about their private lives, he said
We know that some officers were described as 'womanisers' – is that the sort of thing he meant?

@ucpinquiry McIntosh believes “there's always banter” in a male-dominated setting. He wouldn't assume that anything heard in this way was accurate.

@ucpinquiry HN155 describes Ferguson “firing questions at him” prior to deployment to check he was prepared – make sure his cover story was robust – McIntosh says Craft would do this too, it was part of what they did.

@ucpinquiry Marital status: domestic stability was important – you say you always spoke to the new officer's partner – how did you assess things?

@ucpinquiry We met with them before deployment in the field – partly to introduce themselves and make it clear that they were available if she ever encountered any problems – which he says was the main reason.

@ucpinquiry He says they could enquire into an officer's domestic situation but “certainly didn't investigate”

@ucpinquiry What were you able to say to the wife or partner about what to expect?
That their husband would be working long hours, and lots of evenings – they wouldn't see much of him.

@ucpinquiry They gave them phone numbers to contact the back office staff, and tried to reassure them that there was always a way of getting in touch.
They didn't tell them about the dangers their husband might face.

@ucpinquiry Why were you so keen to gain the trust of the officer's spouse?
Welfare reasons – if they had problems, they could contact us, and we would sort it out.

@ucpinquiry You've also said that having this stable, married life would reduce the risk of undercovers being tempted – so this temptation was considered?

“Of course – facts of life”
We certainly wouldn't have raised this risk with the spouse.

@ucpinquiry Was he aware of Vince Harvey's relationship difficulties? Was Ferguson?
McIntosh says he wasn't aware at the time

@ucpinquiry As a single man he represented a security risk, he would have taken this up to Superintendent level if he had known and expects that Harvey would have been withdrawn.

@ucpinquiry If he'd known about Harvey's long-term (real-life) relationship breaking down, would that have concerned him?
Yes – as a single man
would have dealt with it as a welfare matter

@ucpinquiry Personally I thought married men were a better risk
adding that his views “wouldn't have been a secret, particularly with my Chief Inspector”
“you know, no secrets professionally”.

@ucpinquiry Why did he believe in the system used to create fake identities using the name of a child who had died?

He'd heard of it – it was in the public eye - “if you read books and stuff like that”

@ucpinquiry ...and thought it good as it provided a date of birth and a birth certificate for the officer to use.

Adding that “nothing was computerised in those days”

@ucpinquiry He didn't think there was much of a risk of exposure – and sticks to this even though he knows that some officers were exposed.

@ucpinquiry He didn't consider the ethics at the time and still doesn't question them now – saying that it's “most unfortunate that this Inquiry has enabled the poor families and relatives to realise this has happened”

@ucpinquiry Were you aware of HN80's distress at this practice, and him using a slightly different name as a result?

No

@ucpinquiry Do you recall Richard Clark (HN297) being withdrawn?

He says he recalls being outside the pub with a surveillance team when they knew that Clark's cover had been compromised, but doesn't think he knew all the details at the time.

@ucpinquiry Did that potential compromise not make you reconsider your risk assessment?
It must have done but he doesn't remember more

@ucpinquiry He says they knew that “certain organisations had very severe security checks”
but thinks it's very strange that they went to such lengths as visiting Somerset House and going through the records to prove their suspicions – he still sounds a bit incredulous.

@ucpinquiry He claims they would have reviewed the whole practice.

Does he remember what he was told about it?
Just that he'd been exposed

@ucpinquiry Clark confided in a colleague that his compromise was linked to his sexual dalliances – McIntosh says he was not aware of these...

Mitting cut in with a question...

@ucpinquiry It's unclear to what extent he'd already been exposed – if he hadn't, why would they have gone to the pub in a safeguarding role?

Did you already know he had been exposed at that time?
McIntosh says he's been told that, but couldn't answer all of Mitting's questions about this.

@ucpinquiry He was part of this team outside the pub, he'd been told this meeting was taking place and they all feared that Clark might be in danger.

@ucpinquiry Interestingly, yesterday Geoff Craft claimed that he was at the same pub with Derek Kneale. Angus McIntosh does not remember who exactly was there, but now thinks he might have been with Craft.

@ucpinquiry He spoke more about how they monitored the #spycops welfare – the undercovers were expected to phone the office every day to 'check in'

Did you ask them to report on their progress when they rang in?

@ucpinquiry Would you have been aware of their day to day activities?
No

@ucpinquiry There were meetings at the safe flats twice a week, which McIntosh attended. Did you meet with all the officers together?
He recalls that Ferguson would go into the big room with all the officers; he would station himself in another room to process their diaries, expenses admin

@ucpinquiry At these meetings, some of the officers had already drafted their reports, others did them in the flat.
McIntosh would take their handwritten notes back to the office.
Did you give them instructions verbally at the safe house?
Yes – usually this was Mike Ferguson.

@ucpinquiry We have heard that HN354 was working 14 hours a day, 7 days a week, taking very little time off – would you have addressed this?

“Yes” - recalling a lot of pressure from higher up in the police to reduce overtime hours and the costs.

@ucpinquiry He mentioned that he was also very concerned about them working long hours – it meant they weren't spending much time at home with their wives and families

@ucpinquiry However he says he couldn't see any way of reducing their hours without affecting their cover stories.

@ucpinquiry He felt that he was able to build close relationships with the officers – and that they could have approached him for help with problems.

@ucpinquiry However if these problems were what he called “self induced” he suspects they may not have been entirely honest with him as a senior officer.

@ucpinquiry He went on to explain that there was a clear hierarchy and respect for rank in the police force – the SDS policy of using first names was a deliberate one, to emphasis the close nature of the unit and encourage openness/ gain the undercovers' confidence he says

@ucpinquiry He says he can't see any of them ever confiding in him about a relationship in the field – this could have affected their career

Was Ferguson someone people felt they could confide in?
“He was a man's man” - think this was meant to mean 'yes'.

@ucpinquiry Was the risk of relationships a real one for the SDS?
Yes.
He agreed that this equated to a security risk to the entire #spycops operation.

@ucpinquiry Did you consider this as behaviour as an officer abusing his position and power?
No. In his view “things happen” and it's a personal, individual matter, security risk aside.

@ucpinquiry The undercovers posed as single men in the groups they were spying on., Did you ever consider them having 'girlfriends'?
Would that have been shared outside the unit?
“We were looking for ways to solve the problem” he recalls

@ucpinquiry There were various risk factors which could have increased the likelihood of sexual r-ships – eg long hours, alcohol, close personal relationships with members of the target group etc – which did you consider risks?
“It's difficult to answer – we're talking about human relations”

@ucpinquiry Did you try to monitor for this?
He says “it's not something they would talk about”

@ucpinquiry Did you try to get a sense of the social activities they participated in along with their targets?
This was a normal part of going undercover in an organisation.

@ucpinquiry There was more discussion about the incentives for undercovers to form relationships
pressure to enhance their intelligence gathering

@ucpinquiry Dual purpose of meetings at the safe house – the social purpose – an opportunity for the officers to relax together and be themselves
He recalled eating lunch together – these have been described as 'long and moist' – but says the back office staff didn't go to the pub afterwards

@ucpinquiry He remembers the banter – both general and sexual – but says he was in the other room a lot of the time, so some of these conversations wouldn't have been in his earshot.

@ucpinquiry He does not recall jokes about Rick Clark's sexual prowess – another officer says that conversations took place in front of managers which couldn't have failed to make them aware of his sexual misconduct.

@ucpinquiry “He was a very outgoing person” he says - “the type that would brag about anything”
However he claimed no knowledge of Rick having sex with at least four women while undercover.

@ucpinquiry McIntosh is not sure whether this surprises him at all.
He was shocked

@ucpinquiry He spoke more about this: “His behaviour has let everyone down” – blaming this for this Inquiry being set up and a spotlight now being shone on the unit

@ucpinquiry According to him this is a “great shame”, as
“One of the proud things of SB was that the SDS was run without the general knowledge of the Branch let alone the police force or anyone else. Now the whole thing's been exposed, unravelled, and that's why I think it's a great shame”.

@ucpinquiry He then clarified for the Chair that he is not referring to Clark letting everyone down back then, but talking about the long-term impact of his conduct.

He sounds seriously distressed that everything has now 'unravelled' and people now know about the SDS's existence.

@ucpinquiry We moved on to HN300 – was he aware of his reputation as a womaniser?
Not when he first joined the unit, but “he was a strange character”

@ucpinquiry Did you know he's been described as a 'sexual predator”?
He says he became aware of this towards the end of HN300's deployment (in 1976)
He cannot recall anything about this undercover falling in love with an activist.

@ucpinquiry What do you recall?
General chit chat – maybe he'd been married a couple of times – possibly his marriage was on the rocks – I thought he was being withdrawn because his time was up.

@ucpinquiry HN300 confessed to another officer that he'd fallen in love – this colleague set up a meeting with SDS managers in a pub – after which HN300 was withdrawn.

@ucpinquiry We've been told that you're the one he spoke to – “the officer with the Scottish name”

McIntosh denies that this was him, saying he “couldn't fail but remember” something like this.

@ucpinquiry What's his reaction to finding out that he then married the activist?

He finds it amazing, and “amazing that rumour control kept it secret”

@ucpinquiry If he had known about this relationship, the officer would have to have been reported “right up top” - much higher than the SDS – he can't say if this would have led to a formal disciplinary or not.

@ucpinquiry McIntosh suggests that this man would have had to move out of Special Branch and this would have affected his vetting in future.

@ucpinquiry Had HN354 and HN21 disclosed their sexual activity to you, would this have led to disciplinary procedures? Possibly – again not his decision to make alone.

HN126 was also mentioned

@ucpinquiry HN155 – did McIntosh have any knowledge of this office smoking weed with activists?
No – but thinks he wasn't sent out in the field until after McIntosh had left the unit.

@ucpinquiry Mitting had a question for the witness:
The officer who reported the HN300 matter to his managers is very clear about what happened. Was this McIntosh or Craft – it must have been one of them.
Mitting wonders if he has any explanation for this mystery?

@ucpinquiry Only that it may have due to McIntosh going off on training courses and being away from the office for “long periods” in 1976
He thinks it was such a big, serious event that he's sure it would have stuck in his mind.

@ucpinquiry Perhaps someone else was Acting Inspector and maybe this was Leslie Willingale?
McIntosh says this is the only possible explanation he can think of.

@ucpinquiry After this, we stopped for lunch. There will be more questions for Angus McIntosh afterwards

#spycops
#spycopsinquiry

@ucpinquiry in the meantime, join @tombfowler for live reaction at twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1…

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp unroll

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp Starting again after lunch - you can listen at - Ms Hummerstone had three topics to address with today's witness, Angus McIntosh
#spycopsinquiry

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp In his statement, McIntosh says that as a Detective Inspector in the SDS, he was too junior an officer to have much interaction with the Security Services

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp However as we saw in ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl… – a summary of the contact between the Security Services and the SDS in 1979, produced in August of that year...

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp There was a meeting between the 2 organisations on 22nd February, at which it was noted that these meetings would become regular, monthly events.
McIntosh and Ferguson attended this meeting on behalf of the SDS.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp It's suggested that the chain of tasking would alter, so that in future there would be more direct communication to the SDS, that didn't go through the Superintendents.

McIntosh says he's surprised by this.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp He described their relationship as “cordial”.

We next saw a note of a lunch meeting on 1st October is described as “an opportunity to say farewell to Angus McIntosh” and meet his successor, Trevor Butler

ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/upl…

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp Were these lunches a regular occurrence?

He doesn't deny attending this event.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp Did the SDS keep any records of these meetings?
He doesn't recall

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp The next topic was about reporting for public order purposes was undertaken by a written report – put together by Dick Scully (in the SDS office)

Is this a reference to a 'threat assessment'? Hummerstone asks

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp McIntosh explained that S Squad produced the actual threat assessments, using the SDS reports.

Who received them?
Whoever was dealing with the issue – often A8.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp You said that 'urgent' info was relayed by phone...

What did you consider urgent information?
One example would be information about a demonstration – about numbers or plans or tactic – received in the 24 hours beforehand.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp How often did that occur?

There were a lot of demos, but he can't remember how often they had to make urgent calls.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp He considered this the most important public order info they could pass on, so always stressed to officers how important it was to pass on such news – form other police force areas as well as London.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp Did the SDS ever receive feedback from their 'customers'?

They were considered a very valuable source, but the feedback tended to be general

Was there any critical feedback that you know of?

“I'm certainly not aware of that”

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp One of the #spycops officers has given evidence in closed session about the demo in Southall in April 1979.

He says he was warned by an SDS manager not to attend, as it was known that the
uniformed police were planning to 'clamp down' on the demo.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp Were you the manager who did that?
No

Do you recollect any knowledge of this?
No

He said however that he understood why this warning would have been given – they didn't want the #spycops officers to be arrested or involved in violence.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp Adding that this was a very unusual thing to do.

The same officer says he was “smuggled into Scotland Yard” to make a statement about this incident. Do you recall arranging this?
No

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp Do you recall any pressure on the SDS to provide evidence favourable to the police in respect of this demo?

No, I certainly can't

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp Another officer has told us that he was tasked with attending Peach's funeral and passing on a list of names of people who attended that day.

Who do you think asked for that?

He doesn't know, but isn't surprised to hear that the @metpolice wanted this kind of intelligence.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Asked why they'd have wanted an officer to attend the funeral, he said this might have been to identify disorder; “normal coverage” and added that it was 'of interest' as Peach was a left wing activist.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice So - asked Hummerstone - “reporting on those attending Blair Peach's funerals and other events relating to him – was this done due to their status as activists rather than their efforts to discredit or criticise the police?

He agreed but said “yes, anti-police”

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Mitting:
Many people find it distasteful that a police officer would attend a funeral of someone who's died in such circumstances...

(Peach was killed by police officers)

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice McIntosh's response:
I can understand some people being upset by it, but however in public disorder...
- he mentions Northern Ireland -

“funerals are often a hotbed of problems, and it wasn't the friends and relatives of the person whose funeral it was..."

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice continuing
"it was because there was an opportunity of demonstrating against.. it would be anti-police, in one way or another...”

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice After these outrageous comments,
he went on to suggest that the National Front might have attended

ending with "I don't think there's a lot of respect in those circumstances for the real reason for the occasion”
(!)

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Hummerstone had a few more questions..
McIntosh said he had an advisory role in the undercovers' creation of fake identities, using deceased children's names – did he ever advise them to visit the places where these children and their families were from?
No

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice 'HN21' attended Peach's funeral and 'HN41' attended the demo at which he was killed.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice In your written statement, you said that you do not believe that activists involved in events relating to Peach's death were reported on because they sought to discredit or criticise the police – this doesn't match what you said this afternoon – can you clarify?

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Why do you think these people would have been reported on?

He waffled about how if someone was sent to cover a demo, it was their duty to report the names of those present, without any filtering.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice It's more likely that they would have included activists'' names on the list as they're more likely to have recognised those people.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice What would be the justification for reporting on them though - HN21 said there was no public order risk

He said that HN21's assessment was just a "subjective conclusion" and suggested it was unreliable

He then claimed not to remember the full details of the Blair Peach's death.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Accepted that leafleting and fly-posting would sometimes be within a 'limit' – can – can you now clarify where your boundary might have been?

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice McIntosh claims he muddled up leafleting and bill-posting earlier
He says he would term these “very minor misdemenours and therefore not an embarrassment”.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice What about public order offences – were these outside the scope?
Yes, but... making some comment about how some people are “unlucky”

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice What about obstructing police officers?
He said “you'd have to look at the circumstances” eg whether he was alone or in a group.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice You refer to officers “sailing close to the wind” in paragraph 163 of your statement – saying that criminal offences not connected to their deployment would be unacceptable.
“You would expect them to use their initiative”

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Was there any definitive guidance?
“you had to rely on the officers' judgement, which of course, in hindsight, could be said to be wrong”

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice ucpi.org.uk/publications/s…
In this document it's said that
it might be necessary to indoctrinate the desks' – what does this mean?
He says it refers to a very high level of security/ vetting.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Did any of the wives/ partners ever contact you or Ferguson on the numbers you supplied them with?
No

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Were they given any explanation for the way their husbands' appearances changed?
They must have told their wives and partners something.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Mike Ferguson understood the strains and stresses as he had personal experience of going undercover.
He claims it was left entirely to the #spycops to decide how they dealt with this issue

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Re guidance on sexual contact
Which officers did he speak to, or was it all of them?
“It was no secret that it was an offence” he said

(as there were regularly 'scandals' in the media about this)

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Did you ever directly ask undercovers about the nature of their relationships with activists?

He denied asking them if they were having affairs

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice No it wasn't probed” he insisted.
Going on to say that this would have been pointless, as it's unlikely they would have been honest with me, a supervising officer

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice You don't think that your mentioning it might have helped reduce the risk?

“We're not talking about children, we're talking about grown men”

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice You were asked if this sexual contact was an abuse of the officer's position/ power, and said it was “between consenting adults”, and admitted it's not something you thought about...
He interrupted her to insist that he didn't “give them the green light”

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Going on to suggest that the deceit was necessary and comparing it with anyone else being dishonest about their job before a sexual encounter.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice You said the issue of girlfriends came up in the safe house
Craft has mentioned this.
Does McIntosh recall complaints?
He says they looked to see how they could cope with it.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice So was Craft aware it was a difficulty?
You dealt with things as they came up – he gave the example of an officer “running out of excuses” for not bringing a girlfriend to social events – asking the managers if they could help arrange for them to take a 'lady' along

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice McIntosh and HN300's time in the unit overlapped for around 7 months, and you became aware of his reputation then. What did you do about it?
Nothing – with the excuse that “he was coming out of it”

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Did you know he was an alcoholic?

“No, I knew he drank, but most of them did”

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Did they claim for alcohol as an 'expense'?
Not for themselves
He admitted that they could have claimed the 'refreshments were for someone else though

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice We know that HN13 was beaten up so badly by uniformed police at a demo that he needed an x-ray

What did SDS officers do if they witnessed police misconduct?

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Would this be reported up the chain, and would anything be done?

McIntosh says “it's extremely unlikely” that the offender would be identified

But it sounds like precious little was done.

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Tomorrow's is the last hearing in this round of the @ucpinquiry
More details at ucpi.org.uk/hearing/ucpi-t…

#spycopsinquiry

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice @tombfowler and friends twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1…

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice @threadreaderapp unroll

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice Read about what happened in today's #SpyCopsInquiry hearing - in this thread, or via 'unrolled' thread here: threadreaderapp.com/thread/1527208…

@tombfowler also live-tweeted from the public gallery

#spycops

@ucpinquiry @tombfowler @threadreaderapp @MetPolice alternatively, you can listen to the whole thing via Youtube
- the morning session (3 hours or so) is at

& the afternoon session (only 1.5 hours) is at

#SpyCopsInquiry
#spycops